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[Mattnumbers]

Last night we didn't discuss any of those changes and said momentum should be less than that. Those are outdated and they know they overdid the momentum. Wait for sage to tell you the new changes we want. And why are you raising the SH height?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

And why are you raising the SH height?

Because he SHs shorter than Fox and FHs higher than Melee Falco? It's a bit ridiculous, and some have had issue with it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The low SH is supposed to replicate DJC.

The main thing we want for Ness more than the others (There would be 6 total buffs including the ones on there as we would like you guys to remove the utilt and Dsmash buffs) would be the momentum. You can make it so Fair doesn't chain together at ridiculous percents but we still want the last hit to hit in a fairly good angle for combo's. With the momentum if is possible to do things out of Dthrow when the opponent DIs. And no, we don't want the momentum to be 135% we know that's too much.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The low SH is supposed to replicate DJC.

Yeah, I got that. But unlike DJC, you're forced to do it. You don't get control, it just makes the contrast between your FH and SH really weird.

Again, I can deal with it, and the super low SH does have its perks. Just a bit more height shouldn't hurt his game.


And wait, the utilt buff too? That one actually works well, why are we removing it?

What exactly is the plan for Ness? Full changelist as you guys had planned it?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm waiting for sage and or Count Kaiser to get on, they are the main people. I just helped last night.

 

[_clinton]

PKT1 isn't going. His SH height is being raised (slight, .95 from .85).

Thank you for both of those...

Also, I'll be frank. The changes you guys sent me were very very bad. The momentum could clear 1/3 to 1/2 of FD in a SH smaller than foxes. The funniest part, with your fair change, I could link multiple fairs on an opponent exceeding 120%, and that was with momentum only at 110% (yours was at 135%!). Also, your initial fair design could be SDI'd out on the first hit downwards.

Is there still going to be some extra momentum on him though?

Also, your bat changes you upped the damage output, KBG, and BKB in some instances. That means you upped the KBG twice, both by a damage multiplier and KBG, and added more BKB to boot.

The bat was stronger than Ike's Fsmash overall (as well as some other Fsmash moves that were easy to look at...the thing killed Mario at 58-73 range at the 1/2 mark of FD with no DI)

 

[Deleted member]

Guys, take this discussion to the Ness boards where it will forever be forgotten about. Ness (aside from Simna's actually understandable suggestions) does not need what you're fighting for. The goal of feedback and input should not be about catering to your every complaint.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Simna's suggestions are horrible, he wants to buff Ness's recovery, thereby removing his weakness, and centralize Ness's game around the use of PKT -_-

 

[Deleted member]

So...by buffing his recovery, we place the focus on his meta-game on simply PKT spamming? You're really stretching here. Learn to play.

 

[Mattnumbers]

No he wants other buffs that do that, he was talking about it in IRC. He said he wants Ness to be all about PKT.

 

[Revven]

Simna's suggestions are horrible, he wants to buff Ness's recovery, thereby removing his weakness, and centralize Ness's game around the use of PKT -_-

Well, they aren't BAD suggestions at all. Watch some of Simna's Melee matches, maybe you'd understand WHY he wants PKT1 to be centralized. PKT1 is a ****ing mind game, and while it's pretty decent the way it is right now, doing Simna's suggestions aren't out of line at all and wouldn't exactly buff Ness's recovery (except the faster PK Thunder, which IMO, probably wouldn't be included anyhow as we can't control the speed of projectiles afaik).

Yeah PKT1 is kinda bad for hitting with in its current condition but, they are reasonable suggestions. You just don't understand why because you've never seen what Ness could do with PKT1 in Melee in Simna's hands. >.> (Or maybe I am just overhyping him roflmao).

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Now now, Simna's suggestions aren't horrible. They just make him a one trick pony, centralized around a very versatile projectile (go watch Simna's combo vid for versatility proof). Which would make me have no fun playing Ness, and I'd probably start maining Lucas or Sonic again.

Point being, his suggestions would work in making Ness good, albeit bland for me.


I'm honestly going to say all he needs to be awesome are some work on his throws from what we have now. And seriously, someone do something about that dair sourspot. It's freakin insane.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well, I have to go for an hour or so but I do think your overhyping Simna. Not to mention that of all the Ness players that have been talking about this besides him do not want those buffs in the slightest.

 

[_clinton]

I'm actually fine so far with the way PKT is right now...but I'm always up for buffs on a great move ^_^

The thing I want for Ness (and Lucas) is their vBrawl gravity and a momentum buff for Ness so that overall I can use Lucas' aerial PK Fire tricks right...and get a slight boost with Ness' aerial PK Fire tricks (oh and of course the magnet buff on Ness...the only reason I wanted Lucas to have a magnet buff was so that I could do his magnet pull better in Brawl+...but if he has his normal gravity again...I won't need it)

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a Ness player. I want them. Buffing aspects of his game will not make him one dimensional. Ness has a lot of depth, and if you get creative, you could easily have a very distinct style. Ugh I so want to say this in the WBR.

Edit: Tatsuman, I love how you assume you're going to hate playing a Simna-influenced Ness. Isn't that a little preemptive?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i love how brawl+ believes balance is making strengths stronger, then when i said something about something, i got shut down because helping a weakness isn't balance. and now look at ness' recovery. lol.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Tatsuman, I love how you assume you're going to hate playing a Simna-influenced Ness. Isn't that a little preemptive?

Simna's buffs only help his recovery. An aspect which he has been systematically designed to suck at. If he gets those buffs, he'll have to have another weakness, so there goes every buff except the PKT ones and actually comboing will be his weakness.

With his current set of buffs, Brawl+ Ness feels perfect for me. If they get changed a huge amount and Ness stops feeling like my main, I'll go play someone else that does. I'm not assuming much, I'm just going off of how I've always picked my mains in Smash.

 

[grim mouser]

I'd like to ask that T. Link's b-air angle be lowered a bit. Not to the previous angle, but lower than 67. 67 is good for b-air --> u-air, but I find it hard to b-air --> d-air now. Also, the higher angle makes b-air worse on recovering opponents.

 

[Revven]

i love how brawl+ believes balance is making strengths stronger, then when i said something about something, i got shut down because helping a weakness isn't balance. and now look at ness' recovery. lol.

Ness's recovery didn't get a huge *** buff from the ability to doing it again. Each time you hit the PKT1, Ness still descends pretty low and if you keep doing it, he eventually dies anyway. This is mostly to prevent dumber deaths than just jumping into it too.

You KNOW darn well it's not a significant buff, his recovery still blows.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Delorian, you started playing Ness like a week ago -_-
I saw you proclaim that you just started playing him right after you were talking about how great his Dtilt PK fire "combo" is. For one thing you haven't been playing him long enough and for another that's not a combo and his Dtilt is not very good at all.

And the Dsmash buff needs to be removed Falco, its pretty pointless.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Ness's recovery didn't get a huge *** buff from the ability to doing it again. Each time you hit the PKT1, Ness still descends pretty low and if you keep doing it, he eventually dies anyway. This is mostly to prevent dumber deaths than just jumping into it too.

You KNOW darn well it's not a significant buff, his recovery still blows.

like hell. if the person is good with pk thunder then it makes him near impossible to gimp. you can keep knocking him away and he can still do his recovery. he's fantastic on stage and his recovery is his weakness (like olimar only with a more reliable recovery). why does he need a better recovery anyway? its been the same since N64 and its made him a pretty fair character.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Popo all you have to do is jump on the PKT1 a couple times and he falls to his death

Or you could spike him.

 

[FrozenHobo]

but i shouldn't have to jump 'a couple times', i should only have to jump once. you hit popo out of IC's up b and he has to fall to his death. why should ness get special treatment?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Because the Belay is way faster, goes much farther, and is generally better in every way.

 

[grim mouser]

If all the buff does is make one need to jump in a few more times, that's one useless buff. <_<

 

[Mattnumbers]

If all the buff does is make one need to jump in a few more times, that's one useless buff. <_<

Exactly, which is why we were going to have them remove it in place of other buffs we were suggesting

 

[FrozenHobo]

Exactly, which is why we were going to have them remove it in place of other buffs we were suggesting

i'm fine with that. i'm just annoyed at multiple pk thunders because

1) its not like that in any other smash game

2) the only other characters that have reusable up bs are ZSS and ROb (that i can think of without seeing a character list) and both of those still have limits that make them mediocre at best (zss falls st the same speed even if she's doing her up b and rob can only fly for a while/not attack while using his).

 

[metaXzero]

Wait Popo, why do we want to take Ness back to the days of "if they do ANYTHING to the PK Thunder projectile, Ness dies."

Infinite PK Thunders didn't remove Ness's crap recovery, nor did they make Ness able to travel farther. It's still a weakness, just not as lol worthy to gimp.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Wait Popo, why do we want to take Ness back to the days of "if they do ANYTHING to the PK Thunder projectile, Ness dies."

Infinite PK Thunders didn't remove Ness's crap recovery, nor did they make Ness able to travel farther. It's still a weakness, just not as lol worthy to gimp.

i don't want it in because he can already combo really well onstage making him a threat and reusable up bs make gimping him harder/take longer to do. i don't see it as a fair trade off to give him a **** on stage game as well as a reusable recovery. if you want to increase the distance it can go, then be my guest, but letting him have a reusable recovery that can give the distance as well as the killing power of pk thunder is just really overpowering him.

 

[Mattnumbers]

popo he can't use PKT2 multiple times in the air you know that right?

 

[FrozenHobo]

popo he can't use PKT2 multiple times in the air you know that right?

i know, i'm just arguing that the people that wanted it/thought it was a fair idea are just trying to make ness into a ****ing god character. i've played the recent codeset and i already know he can't multi recover, but if that ever comes up in a future set i will fight it to the death.

 

[_clinton]

i'm fine with that. i'm just annoyed at multiple pk thunders because

1) its not like that in any other smash game

2) the only other characters that have reusable up bs are ZSS and ROb (that i can think of without seeing a character list) and both of those still have limits that make them mediocre at best (zss falls st the same speed even if she's doing her up b and rob can only fly for a while/not attack while using his).

1. Who cares if it is new? DJC was taken out of brawl as well as several other things...
2. Ness' recovery has seen change with all 3 smash games as well
3. The time needed to do it is still more than firefox at best...
4. Sweetspotting is still hard...

I can go on if I need to

 

[FrozenHobo]

1. Who cares if it is new? DJC was taken out of brawl as well as several other things...
2. Ness' recovery has seen change with all 3 smash games as well
3. The time needed to do it is still more than firefox at best...
4. Sweetspotting is still hard...

I can go on if I need to

you're going to have to because if it makes sense to you to let ness have a reusable up then why not let every character have one? its gonna be loltastic when people miss grabbing the ledge with there up b anyway, why should every character have to just go into free fall? i'm sure anybody would see it as being 'more competitive' to let characters keep using their up bs over and over again to get onto the stage. hell, why we're at it why not just take away death boundaries, they make the game less completive with their whole 'i'm gonna punish people who **** up'. i mean, by your logic just because the other games worked that way why should B+ be like them? thats just silly.

 

[cman]

i know, i'm just arguing that the people that wanted it/thought it was a fair idea are just trying to make ness into a ****ing god character. i've played the recent codeset and i already know he can't multi recover, but if that ever comes up in a future set i will fight it to the death.

Thank you for having the courage to oppose what no one suggested.

Spoiler

Shameless colbert quote

Edit- Apparently someone did suggest it...?

On the topic of multiple pkt1s, ness is still fairly easy to gimp. His pkt1 still takes a long time to circle around, so there is plenty of time to just hit ness before he can use it. It still doesn't have much distance to it. The buff didn't give him a god recovery, but instead it is just mediocre now. Whether it should have been buffed at all seems to be your main qualm though, and on that topic, I am not sure.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You guys know your arguing about two different things right?

Clinton is talking about multiple PKT1
Popo is talking about the proposed by simna no Freefall after PKT2

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

also..who asked for zelda buffs? she was already pretty good..and its like she just got buffs for no reason. but whatever.

 

[_clinton]

You guys know your arguing about two different things right?

Clinton is talking about multiple PKT1
Popo is talking about the proposed by simna no Freefall after PKT2

Oh...ok nevermind unless he doesn't like multiple PKT1 then I don't care...because I don't really want to see PKT2 be without freefall as well...

I also don't want to see PKT1 speed up...

 

[Mattnumbers]

It was pretty much just so that her smashes work like they're supposed to.

 

[FrozenHobo]

lol this is why good communication skills are need on the internet.

 

[metaXzero]

Multiple PKT2? No....

If Ness were to recieve that no freefall after PKT2 thing, he shouldn't be able to use PK Thunder again until landing on something (like Pit and his Up-B).