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[Blank Mauser]

EDIT: Take it up with Cape Mauser, he was the one that did the changes to Ivy. We all agreed the old Ivy was TOO razor leaf centric. Was it OP? No, but it was shallow and boring to fight and probably play. Once you learned the matchup before it wasn't tough to shut Ivy down. We gave her more versatility. That being said, I'm a little upset you think we just nerfed Ivy cause we didn't want him to be good.

I don't think it was intentional on the backrooms part, I think it was more due to all the talk of Ivysaur being overpowered and campy. I'm honestly not sure which is the case, I'm just merely speaking against it.

I don't think the leaves made her campy at all simply because you could break them with just about any move. It was one move that had multiple uses, and versatility is always something thats fun to me. I haven't found the new buffs nearly as versatile. The ALR gave her flexibility and mindgames, not having to commit to using her laggy aerials combined with her floatiness. Being able to Uair to safety after throwing an aerial, or baiting rolls only to Uair back down and chase with grabs. The leaves served as both a zoning tool(But not too good of one) and a combo'er. It was not the be all end all tactic, it was simply a good move. Once you learn to deal with them Ivysaur needs to find other ways to really pressure the opponent, which was an area she excelled at before. Using leaves differently for recovery options was also a key part to surviving with Ivy.

Ivysaur was a plenty versatile character, and I really wanted to prove that. It just annoyed me that the more I seemed to show people my Ivysaur the more talk came. "Ivysaur's too easy, Ivysaur is all leaves, Ivysaur is broken." All the talk made me switch to a different character. Thats why I picked up Sonic, to try and prove it wasn't just Ivysaur. Seriously, I've played some really good Shieks, Marths, Falcos and other characters that just wrecked me, and I've found Ivy's weakness comes in her blindspots and susceptibility to combos and gimps. Once you learn a way in, its an easy stock. Shrug off the leaves by breaking them and use momentum to rush straight up close where Ivy's moves are the slowest.

I feel these fixes make her more of a shallow character. As I mentioned, grounded up-B speed up for predicting jumps would have been great on the old Ivysaur. I can't imagine she'd need much else but it would be a mix-up to her razor storms on people who fall into predictable habits when avoiding the leaves.

 

[bajisci]

I gained interest in the game just for Ivysaur, but I spread to other characters too.

The buffs are all kind of shallow, small ups to things he didn't particularly need help in. Bair doesn't need to do 10% because its only useful in certain combos,

i stopped reading right there.

Spoiler

cause, you know, its not like one of the best spacing moves in the game noooo tahts not it and that he can camp bair and razor leaf against any character without a good projectile and absolutely **** them since it does 10% yea lets just forget about that

 

[Blank Mauser]

i stopped reading right there.

Spoiler

cause, you know, its not like one of the best spacing moves in the game noooo tahts not it and that he can camp bair and razor leaf against any character without a good projectile and absolutely **** them since it does 10% yea lets just forget about that

It has only decent startup, and plenty of lag after the actual hitbox. That leaves enough time for anyone with good momentum to get up on Ivy, especially now with nerfed aerial lag and a floatier Ivysaur. And if you've ever played Ivy you'd know that could be a potential stock. If anything these less safer moves will only force Ivysaur to play safer and campier.

If you want safe aerials, there are characters who do that much better. Kirby, Marth, Metaknight. The range on Ivy's bair is its only saving grace, but in a game with momentum, you need more then range to keep up.

 

[Jimbo_G]

The Change Notes he wrote down.

Ahh, very nice GoG! This significantly expands my understanding of the current set's changes. I appreciate your efforts. This helps me be all the more informed about any feedback I may have for the sets. If you could begin doing this for the future major updates I (and I would hope others) would appreciate that greatly so we can stop having "WTFBBQ" arguments over every little tweak.

 

[goodoldganon]

Got it. I'll make sure to do it. It might not be up as soon as each set releases, but it'll be up within the first few days.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I wont ask for buffs but I cant wait when u guys start tweaking Toon Link.

 

[goodoldganon]

What kind of angle would you like the f-air to send people at? Figuring we tweak him...

 

[TLMSheikant]

55 or 60 sounds good. *waits for vietgeek*

 

[VietGeek]

Hmm...well...what's the source angle right now?

I'm thinking 55 would be grand. I'm thinking 55 (between 55-60) because Utilt > fair is too easy a set-up at mid %s.

And naturally good DI should make a difference between survival and death...just not as ridiculously good as "good" DI is doing on fairs like TL's and Bowser's (sending it almost to uppermost sides of the "rectangular" stages).

If you DI fair vertically, you would have to struggle back if you're say Marth or someone else with a linear recovery, but still gives TL a handsome position advantage.

I talk too much, but I suppose you understand?

And yeah Sheikant pestered me to say my share. I feel used as a scapegoat somehow. </3

 

[goodoldganon]

One of you should get on IRC. I'll talk to the others and see if I can host the next one, since I have some tweaks I made to test.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I don't think it was intentional on the backrooms part, I think it was more due to all the talk of Ivysaur being overpowered and campy. I'm honestly not sure which is the case, I'm just merely speaking against it.

Well apparently you only pay attention to the randoms that come in and complain about Ivy because i've yet to see one Backroom member say that she was too good. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Falco400 constantly defends the fact that Ivy deserved to be buffed and that her combo's most frequently *****ed about were, well.... not true combos. The backroom is not nerfing her and I've yet to see why you would have those thoughts.

I feel like you dont like her because she didn't get the buffs YOU wanted but received different ones. The B-air damage is a great buff to her game and while it doesnt hold it's own the other changes made to Ivy add a lot of depth to her game.

 

[Cytrs]

yeah, but ivy's crap if you di properly (and use cf).

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well apparently you only pay attention to the randoms that come in and complain about Ivy because i've yet to see one Backroom member say that she was too good. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Falco400 constantly defends the fact that Ivy deserved to be buffed and that her combo's most frequently *****ed about were, well.... not true combos. The backroom is not nerfing her and I've yet to see why you would have those thoughts.

I feel like you dont like her because she didn't get the buffs YOU wanted but received different ones. The B-air damage is a great buff to her game and while it doesnt hold it's own the other changes made to Ivy add a lot of depth to her game.

I know that Falco400 defended Ivy, and Cape is also a fellow Ivysaur main that I generally agree with. I never said that they intenionally decided to nerf her, just that I don't think these new buffs helped or added much, especially compared to her old self. While this may not be considered a direct nerf, it was a change to something I already felt was good so I'm speaking out against it all the same.

Bair is nothing to flaunt. Like I said, Kirby, Marth, G&W and MK all do the whole defensive aerial thing way better, and have less holes in them. Ivy's has slow start-up, lag after wards, and combined with her floatiness its really not a very rewarding move, and like I said, damage buffs are bleh. Kirby's Bair is a sex kick, outpokes a lot of moves, has no lag, and kills, same can be said for Marth's Fair(besides the sex kick part). Point being its not Ivysaurs strong point. Once you play more Ivy you realize she has a ton more to her then just leaves and Bair.

Anyways, its all good because me and Cape were talking and we've(read:hes) been working on a new Ivysaur that will hopefully let her strengths and flexibility shine. We're hoping to rework her projectile game, and help her rack damage with some pretty cool setups.

 

[Tlock]

Would it be possible to make New Pork the online stage in rotation play too?

 

[Wingflier]

Anyways, its all good because me and Cape were talking and we've(read:hes) been working on a new Ivysaur that will hopefully let her strengths and flexibility shine. We're hoping to rework her projectile game, and help her rack damage with some pretty cool setups.

Please don't forget that Ivysaur is one of the few forced tether recovery characters in the game.

If her ground game does not more than make up for it, she has a serious disadvantage since she can be so easily edgeguarded...

The way you have made it sound as an experienced Ivy main, her ground game is similar too, or maybe a little less effective than similar characters.

It should not be this way at all. Because similar characters actually have a decent recovery.

Please keep this in mind when you talk about buffing her.

Also, I would really like to see Razor Leaf reverted back to several versions ago. As it is now, it seems really underpowered as a projectile. Especially on a character like Ivy who needs it so much.

Wing

 

[Cytrs]

I'm just being devils advocate here since i do think ivy should be buffed and don't think yoshi needs buffed (except moving the tail hurt boxes in his bair to better it's priority).

Yoshi's ground game is crap and he doesn't even have a tether recovery. his edgeguarding is well below par, too.

 

[iLink]

Regarding the new set:

I don't think Ganon really needed the hitbox size increase on his Fair. It had decent range before.

Bowser's usmash is also kind of deceiving.

Aside from that, not much else to say.

 

[cubaisdeath]

yeah, the ganon fair increase is kinda whack. he didn't really need it

 

[Mattnumbers]

I personally don't see why Ganondorf shouldn't get a fair buff, he still isn't that great in my honest opinion. Maybe he's about average now.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Im all for the fair buff. I dont get why ppl are complaining...he does need it. Hes a mediocre character that needs to be helped. And ivysaur shouldnt have been nerfed . Her razor leaf was fine.

 

[Shell]

Regarding the new set:

I don't think Ganon really needed the hitbox size increase on his Fair. It had decent range before.

Bowser's usmash is also kind of deceiving.

Aside from that, not much else to say.

yeah, the ganon fair increase is kinda whack. he didn't really need it

Take a gander at these:

Fair:

Bair:

For anyone unfamiliar with Melee hitbox data, the red circles are hitboxes, and the yellow circles are the character's hurtboxes.

(Also we recently toned the Bair down to 1.20x size from 1.25x and changed it to electricity, and that should show up in a nightly build soon. This removes the armpit disjointed hitbox and cleans it up a bit)

For those of you that think the new hitboxes are too large on principle, I assure you, they're not. They're still smaller than they were in Melee -- Ganon could outspace Marth with a perfect Fair. The increases we've made to the two hitboxes help eliminate the deadspots as well as provide a small increase in range, which is completely befitting a character of his size.

As for balance, well, check out this list:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7559549&postcount=143

The list is very far from anything definitive, but it should at least convey the notion that Ganondorf's not exactly the top of the stack.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

... Ganon's bair will have electricity? ... wow... awesome.

 

[TLMSheikant]

shell- im surprised to see ppl didnt vote for jiggs top 10. Shes an absolute beast in brawl +.

 

[Revven]

shell- im surprised to see ppl didnt vote for jiggs top 10. Shes an absolute beast in brawl +.

Because she has big weakness and huge places where you can just **** her. She's definitely not top 10 but, definitely in top 20 IMO. Reason I say this is because her rest hitbox is smaller than it was in Melee that and her apparent and obvious big weaknesses.

 

[_clinton]

Well...reading through this was fun...anyway I was thinking about Ness' PKT2 and how it has issues with grabbing the ledge on all but 4 stages or so...I'm thinking if you can't fix that...than maybe something else could make up for it...and that something else is just making it lose its distance cut if you hit something...I really don't know why that was put in Brawl in the 1st place ^_^ because Ness' PKT2 already had a distance issue with it when compared to Lucas' PKT2

Now granted looking at just what the distance is normally...

Ness' PKT2 has about the same range as Fox's Firefox (yes, Lucas' PKT2 outranges Fox's Firefox). However when he hits something that range becomes about the same range as Falco's Firefox...

Also as far as hit box changes go...how about giving Ness' Bair the same lighting effect he had in SSBM (now in brawl it just looks so bland)

Well...not the same I guess (I still want hearts on Ness and Lucas' PSI attacks ^_^)

^But does he have mastery of that? Is it potential thing or by the end of the game, he's as powerful as Giygas? :/

On-topic: How goes work on Ness' Yoyo?

Ness unlocking his powers is a canon event...so yes he does have mastery of them...and yes he is on the same level of power as Giygas...that is why Giygas was afraid of him in the 1st place...

 

[metaXzero]

^Last time I checked, Paula was the one who defeated Giygas (by getting everyone they knew to pray). I don't remember Ness doing anything important once Giygas was released.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Ganon's b+ fair is about 3/4 as useful as the melee fair, its pretty fast now and it has nice range. you guys really outdid it and made it a good move. :]

tru facts.

 

[_clinton]

Ganon's b+ fair is about 3/4 as useful as the melee fair, its pretty fast now and it has nice range. you guys really outdid it and made it a good move. :]

tru facts.

The special effects make it better than the Melee Fair...mkay ^_^

^Last time I checked, Paula was the one who defeated Giygas (by getting everyone they knew to pray). I don't remember Ness doing anything important once Giygas was released.

Ok 1st off you have to keep in mind that EB isn't like other RPGs (in which the main way to beat the final boss is nothing more for the most part the same way for others). So put simply the game designers put Paula's pray in as nothing more than an abstract means (not clear on what to do until you do it, even though they sort of say to do it) however I guess it does make some sense as far as the story goes...

Calling Giygas evil in the 1st place may be a bit off (look up the background info for him from Mother 1/EB0) and the truth is...Pokey seemed more "evil" by that point anyway...I mean Giygas wasn't even aware of what he was doing because he sent himself into his own personal hell (as in because of that beating him up was going to do nothing and the loving warm feelings the other characters had for the other characters was able to bounce off of him because he was aware of what those where at least)

2nd off, it was Ness who caused Giygas to become that way in the 1st place...that is unstable and open to the certain thing that ends up ending him...please note that the only thing on Giygas' mind (or what is left of it anyway) was Ness...it was also Ness who brought all those people together in the 1st place (so they only really knew about each other because of Ness...so keep in mind that Ness had a far more important role than what meets the eye)

Also keep in mind that both Ness, Paula, and Poo are all capable of telepathy...and chances are they are all capable of transmitting other thoughts as well (so Jeff did have a point) its just that Paula was the only one who had the in game command needed (again only because it was to be somewhat of a hidden means to beat him...it wasn't like Mother 1 and 3 were it is clear as day what you need to do)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ganon's b+ fair is about 3/4 as useful as the melee fair, its pretty fast now and it has nice range. you guys really outdid it and made it a good move. :]

tru facts.

Are you saying outdid it in a good way or a bad way?


Anyways, I was thinking about how to buff bowser and I remembered the tough skin thing. I understand how this actually hurt him by making him get comboed more and actually take MORE damage. What I was thinking is what if you guys coded something so that Bowser had Knockback Falloff, as in he speeds down faster when launched. This would keep him alive longer while not actually hurting him by making him more vulnerable to combos.

Do you think this is a good idea? Is this even possible?

EDIT: and quit tossing around EB spoilers guys, I still haven't gotten to play the game : (

 

[thesage]

Count Kaiser, thecape, Jiang, and me have been working on Ness. I think we're almost done w/ him...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Count Kaiser, thecape, Jiang, and me have been working on Ness. I think we're almost done w/ him...

That's cool, I'm looking forward to his finished self.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Are you saying outdid it in a good way or a bad way?

good way.

although I haven't tested the nightly fair range increase yet, I have to say that's just pushing it a bit :/

The special effects make it better than the Melee Fair...mkay ^_^

no

 

[ToxiCrow]

i'm looking forward to Ness too. i do enjoy using him

 

[Deleted member]

Stuff about Earthbound canon

Guys, try not to spam the thread with a) spoilers of a really good game that not everyone has played and b) off-topic stuff.

Just because Ness ***** in Earthbound doesn't mean he should be your only focus for Brawl+ feedback.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yay, new Ness.

Could you elaborate? What's being done?

 

[CountKaiser]

A lot of stuff is being done.

I'd say it's a revamp of ness so that it makes him awesome.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

A lot of stuff is being done.

I'd say it's a revamp of ness so that it makes him awesome.

Well, I assumed that much. xD

Either way, glad that Ness is getting attention.

 

[cubaisdeath]

when is the new **** ness coming out?

 

[CountKaiser]

Anyway, the wheels getting the grease are the ones who people willingly work for.

Falco had a huge following to get the shine buff, and Ness is actually ebingworked on by ness mains.

If people want to see their character improve, a good way of doing that is to improve them yourselves, then test the improvements.

EDIT: I imangine, at the very latest, the new Ness comes out by Saturday

 

[FrozenHobo]

Anyway, the wheels getting the grease are the ones who people willingly work for.

Falco had a huge following to get the shine buff, and Ness is actually ebingworked on by ness mains.

If people want to see their character improve, a good way of doing that is to improve them yourselves, then test the improvements.

EDIT: I imangine, at the very latest, the new Ness comes out by Saturday

so the next release wil be saturday?

do you have people working on fixing the nana teleport glitch?


also, is it just me, or does seem to have little to no end lag to his attacks? diddy