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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)
- Thread starter shanus
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stingers
Smash Obsessed
ChuDat ***** MK...
2 stocked my MK and all his matches vs my ROB were close...besides the one on Frigate lol
2 stocked my MK and all his matches vs my ROB were close...besides the one on Frigate lol
Falco's utilt is absurdly quick. Its kinda not needed. It made Falco more like Fox. Then the reflector just to top things off, pulls you back in. Now why does he need that? The answer Ive been getting is that it gives his reflector another option....now why does a reflector need another option? Why not make Ness's magnet juggle or Samus's bomb's auto-dizzy
Utilt has more combo options than a reflector. :V
Without the speed it has now, utilt only comboed into utilt, which was meh. The only other way to get characters in the air was with a SH Sweetspot Dair.
That isnt the best option to get characters in the air for juggling and combos. :V
Roxas215
Smash Lord
This! There is no need for falco utilt speed up. Falco has been good since day 1 and yall just keep making him better.
But kirby useless in vbrawl? Funniest thing i heard all day!
@Neko: We all agree that Falco was a great character at the start right? Why buff him or change him in the first place? Did he need help like Falcon did? Nope. It makes it seem like yall are buffing characters because you want and not because you need to.
@Philly: Youre welcome lol
@Philly: Youre welcome lol
OP, No. Extremely good, Yes. Still cute? Of course.
edit: At YingYay, He did get some trade offs, such as reduced damage on lasers. So it's not like all he got was buffs. Besides i wouldnt mind a slightly better uptilt if it adds variety to his game. Just seeing uptilts comboing into uptilts is not exactly fun. This way it provides a little more depth to the game.
thesage
Smash Hero
You should've looked at the video...
I think Falco's multihit part of his jab should be slowed down...
Revven
FrankerZ
Once again, Falco's changes don't make him any more good than he was before. I didn't see a Falco at BtL that was in the top 10, did you? Nope. Clearly, these changes don't bring him to being as good as Fox or as good as MK, you're just exaggerating it because you don't like it because it's a "buff" even though neither "buffs" make him any better as a character. He still has to SHDL to get inside you, he still has to approach with Dair, he still has to camp the **** out of you.
Utilt and the shine changes didn't make him suddenly have a new approaching game. Shine has situational uses, even the Falcos are trying to find ways to use it and it is a very hard move to implement in his game because you can DI it to avoid everything he can do after it and some things simply just don't lead into the shine. Utilt isn't as broken as Fox's Utilt was BEFORE we changes Fox'es Utilt, quit exaggerating it. It only connects twice at best, which is exactly how a Utilt should work. A Utilt should be able to lead into something else some times besides itself. If it combo'd into itself more than 2-3 times, OF COURSE it would be toned down but it doesn't so why tone it down if it doesn't even make him any better in placing at tourneys? And besides, I'm pretty sure that 2x was the only speedup the Utilt could have so it could lead to other moves besides itself, any slower and it simply does not work like it should. leaf did the math, he did the change, I think it's perfectly fine the way it is.
But, people will never be satisfied until something they want to happen, happens. If the majority of people who WENT to BtL didn't find it broken or stupid good, or the majority of people simply don't find Falco any better WITH these changes, why bother with beating the dead horse? Yes, the shine change is radical, that's the ONLY good argument against it. The Utilt is fine... =\
Jimbo_G
Smash Apprentice
This is where the Notes system we lightly discussed earlier would be useful. There seem to be a lot of newcomers coming in and looking at the Changelog and not understanding why this and that is being implemented. Not all of us have seen/ even heard of the results of the latest Brawl+ tournaments. At least with some notes we can try and diminish some of these issues that have to repeatedly be explained every few pages. ^^;;
Revven
FrankerZ
His combo game is still pretty stale... even with the new changes.
Like I said before, quit exaggerating.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
...
The first hit is on frame 4. The second hit is on frame 12. In vbrawl it ended on frame 36. I sped it up 2x starting frame 14, so it now ends on frame 25. Making it hit sooner wouldn't do anything for letting it combo better. If anything, it would just make it lead into itself better, which is not the point of this.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
make it hit first on frame one and then second on frame 2, then end on frame 3
it's not broken i swear
it's not broken i swear
Ah. Well. It was a thought. That's all. :V
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Stuff:
New Ivysaur is depressing, and I am hard-pressed to find new uses for his "improved utilt." I still think a sped-up grounded up-B would probably be more helpful, but the leaves were really his main keep-away and pressure game. I also think Bair is kind of overrated in terms of a reliable spacer. A real Ivysaur has to mix it up to get results, actually hitting with the bair only comes in combos, and his other aerials are better in that regard.
I don't see any issues with Ike's quickdraw, but I don't see much benefit from it either. Safe on shield when it wasn't before or something? I am confuzzled at its purpose. Aren't we trying to be conservative with frame speed-ups here? Perplexes me more with Luigi's 1 frame longer start-up time for up-b. So random, a little perfectionist or what? Is it a tradeoff for his new jab?
A whole 10 base knockback reduction on Kirby's Fsmash? C'mon now with DI will that even kill much better than his Bair? =\ Really not counting Dair in the equation because you can SDI and mash moves out of it. I might be exaggerating but this is still harsh.
Still think Sonic's Usmash spike needs reconsidering. It would work great with the nair buff, and right now his speed-ups are merely wasting space being there without it. If I could hold a poll I'd do one, but for now I'd like to refute any reasoning against this.
Tink's Dsmash swideswipe is no longer **** on Siege, I think he could use at least something to make up for its loss. I'd rather it still send sideways, though I would be against the removal of it in general really.
I don't really mind the Falco utilt tradeoff but I do think hes getting some extra attention for whatever reason. Meanwhile, I haven't seen too much justification for the nerfing of Ivy, Squirtle and Kirby.
Thats all I have for now.
New Ivysaur is depressing, and I am hard-pressed to find new uses for his "improved utilt." I still think a sped-up grounded up-B would probably be more helpful, but the leaves were really his main keep-away and pressure game. I also think Bair is kind of overrated in terms of a reliable spacer. A real Ivysaur has to mix it up to get results, actually hitting with the bair only comes in combos, and his other aerials are better in that regard.
I don't see any issues with Ike's quickdraw, but I don't see much benefit from it either. Safe on shield when it wasn't before or something? I am confuzzled at its purpose. Aren't we trying to be conservative with frame speed-ups here? Perplexes me more with Luigi's 1 frame longer start-up time for up-b. So random, a little perfectionist or what? Is it a tradeoff for his new jab?
A whole 10 base knockback reduction on Kirby's Fsmash? C'mon now with DI will that even kill much better than his Bair? =\ Really not counting Dair in the equation because you can SDI and mash moves out of it. I might be exaggerating but this is still harsh.
Still think Sonic's Usmash spike needs reconsidering. It would work great with the nair buff, and right now his speed-ups are merely wasting space being there without it. If I could hold a poll I'd do one, but for now I'd like to refute any reasoning against this.
Tink's Dsmash swideswipe is no longer **** on Siege, I think he could use at least something to make up for its loss. I'd rather it still send sideways, though I would be against the removal of it in general really.
I don't really mind the Falco utilt tradeoff but I do think hes getting some extra attention for whatever reason. Meanwhile, I haven't seen too much justification for the nerfing of Ivy, Squirtle and Kirby.
Thats all I have for now.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Magus brought up how luigi could legitimately combo a jab into up-b. The jab fixes as well as the u-B startup was done so that this was rectified.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Lower knockback growth really fixes that? And why not just add more lag to the jab?
Because then you ruin Jab Cancel tactics.
And considering Luigi is a Mario Bro.
Jab > J. Cancel > jab is a mario bro staple.
Mario, Luigi, and Doc agree with me.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Y'know, with a game like Brawl+ constantly changing, it's not really viable to look at tourney results for insights into the meta game. So it doesn't matter if there weren't any Falcos in the top 10.
But has Falco even been changed since that tournament? I dont see why you cant take it into consideration if he wasn't drastically altered (which he wasnt) since the last tournament.
Revven
FrankerZ
It's pretty relevant because those changes I was talking about and Yingyay is claiming as "too good" were in the set used at BtL. Falco has seen literally no changes since then so, it's a pretty relevant and valid statement to say that because Falco didn't get in the Top 10 there (which had seen a lot of good players there) means the changes we gave him (I look at them as fixes more than anything) don't make him any better than he was before, they just add to a pretty stale and continuous predictable combo game.
There were about 1-2 Falcos there and I had heard Thunderhorse+ was actually a really good Falco but, he only managed Top 20 if I remember correctly, which is still good, but by no means stupid good.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Anecdotal evidence from 1 tourney with 1 Falco player in attendance doesn't mean a whole lot, no offense SMK. I bet there are a few other really good characters who didn't make top 10 either, it doesn't mean they aren't really good though.
D
Deleted member
Guest
It COULD mean that Falco is balanced nicely, but you're jumping to conclusions.
It's entirely possible that Falco is actually broken, like these people are saying, and no one at BtL used him to his potential. Or maybe the Falco mains choked. There could be tons of explanations. Tourney results mean absolutely nothing until the dust has cleared and we can finally realize every character to their full potential.
It's entirely possible that Falco is actually broken, like these people are saying, and no one at BtL used him to his potential. Or maybe the Falco mains choked. There could be tons of explanations. Tourney results mean absolutely nothing until the dust has cleared and we can finally realize every character to their full potential.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Aren't mashing out of jab cancel and mashing out of up-B one and the same? Would it be any worst if they get a whole nother frame to react? Not like I know exact frame data on this just assuming.
Roxas215
Smash Lord
There was only 2 falco players at btl and only 1 that was any good(truth). Also there wasn't a peach in top 10 either. I guess we should buff her too.? Like wth? That made absolutely no since at all. Just because a buff to a char don't make him as good as fox or mk doesn't mean the buff is needed.
It's not about not being satisfied until something i want happens. Hell ivy leaves just got nerfed and im a ivy main. I was all for ivy's leaves. But i understood the problem people had with it and i dealt with it. It seems like you are just buffing chars because u have the power to. Not because the char actually needs it. Falcon needed the buffs. Falco clearly doesn't.
Did I say jab.I meant grab. Jab > Cancel > Grab. :V
Adding more lag ruins that staple tactic because they get out of it, pretty much guaranteed.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
I just realized Ivy had 4 whole frames added to his aerial landing lag. That suuuuuuuuckkkssssssss.
Brawl+ Ivysaur was the reason I played this game, and now hes gone. I don't even like the dash attack, utilt, bair, or dair changes. If you're going to nerf the guy don't cover it up with training wheels.
...
Brawl+ Ivysaur was the reason I played this game, and now hes gone. I don't even like the dash attack, utilt, bair, or dair changes. If you're going to nerf the guy don't cover it up with training wheels.
...
metaXzero
Smash Champion
From what I see, Falco's "buffs" are moreso arbitrary changes then buffs. Basically make him more interesting then better. If Falco is truly broken right now, it's not because of his shine's new angle or his U-tilt being able to lead into something besides another U-tilt.
First off, If you play this game just for Ivysaur then your missing out or perhaps you would be better suited for vbrawl with a no pokemon switch code. Dont exaggerate.I just realized Ivy had 4 whole frames added to his aerial landing lag. That suuuuuuuuckkkssssssss.
Brawl+ Ivysaur was the reason I played this game, and now hes gone. I don't even like the dash attack, utilt, bair, or dair changes. If you're going to nerf the guy don't cover it up with training wheels.
...
2nd, hasn't Ivy been getting buffs? Besides, every character is going to be tourney viable. Whats the fuss?
Roxas215
Smash Lord
Yea ivy isn't even fun to play with anymore. Im still going to use him though!I just realized Ivy had 4 whole frames added to his aerial landing lag. That suuuuuuuuckkkssssssss.
Brawl+ Ivysaur was the reason I played this game, and now hes gone. I don't even like the dash attack, utilt, bair, or dair changes. If you're going to nerf the guy don't cover it up with training wheels.
...
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Utilt isn't even that great of a move. Sure you can find uses for it but SH Dair almost always seems to be the better choice, aside from randomly throwing the move and outprioritizing something. It really doesn't add something he didn't have before, and it nerfed his lasers to boot.
I haven't tried the shine much, so I wouldn't know about it.
I haven't tried the shine much, so I wouldn't know about it.
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
Any chance of lowering the ending lag of Diddy's up air? Not by a huge amount, but just enough to follow up well with. It seems really sluggish. a damage nerf could be used to balance for the speed, but the decision isn't mine I guess, lol.
Revven
FrankerZ
Diddy Kong = too good, so no, lol.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
I gained interest in the game just for Ivysaur, but I spread to other characters too.
The buffs are all kind of shallow, small ups to things he didn't particularly need help in. Bair doesn't need to do 10% because its only useful in certain combos, and other aerials are better choices for comboing. Even then, I don't think its a very good buff, damage buffs are just boring. Utilt hardly helps get people off of him, and it combo'd just fine before. So whats the change for? Dair sourspot is okay, but the stall isn't really needed at all. It was better to just razor leaf to turn around and use Bair to get people off ledges. Why was there a slight angle change on dash attack? At most he could combo into up-b with bad DI, that doesn't really change now. None of these buffs are nowhere near as beneficial as his other changes.
The razor leaf and the ALR were the best buffs for him. They increased his versatility and fit perfect for each other. I don't see the problem with Ivysaur having a usable projectile, and considering he gets combo'd and gimped just as easy as fast fallers why can't he have less punishable aerials like them? Not to mention hes floaty and his aerials have enough lag in the air, a combination that isn't even efficient. He has no way to keep people off him, gets punished even easier, gimped for it, and people expect these buffs to make up for it? Why he even needed to get nerfed in the first place is beyond me. Hes a new character, people need time to get used to him.
This is by far the biggest disagreement on a character change I've ever had. I don't understand why these characters are being singled out. Tell me, what was wrong with Ivysaur's leaves being usable when Falco and Diddy have much better projectiles that don't break with every hit? What was wrong with Ivy having slightly faster landing lag when he gets punished harshly by faster characters and gimped by everyone? What is wrong with Ivysaur being a good, balanced character?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
A changelist reasoning, for those who did not know.
Hitbox Additions / Tweaks:
-Bowser utilt increased in size 25%
Bowser should be able to hit people behind him with the u-tilt now as well as punish poor airdodges.
-Bowser upsmash (all hitboxes) increased in size 25%
Impoves the moves ability to punish air-dodges. Fast fall an air dodge through the U-smash and you'll get hit.
-Falcon dair sourspot is now a nipple spike (down angled away at 45º)
The sourspot wasn't useful for anything and it was something Falcon mains wanted.
-Ganon bair increased 25% in size of his b-air and KBG 90 from 85.
Gets rid of the deadspot behind him allowing him to alleviate pressure from behind him a little better.
-Ganon f-air was increased 25% in size
Allows him to space more effectively with it and apply pressure better.
-Kirby fsmash hb1 KBG dropped to 89 from 98, hb2 87 from 96, hb3, 85 from 94
Kirby was a little too good and it is a tradeoff with his N-air buff from the 4.0 official set.
-Luigi Jab1: KBG dropped to 87 from 100, BKB 0 from 0, DMG 3 from 3
Jab to up-b was a legit combo on at least 4/5th of the cast. That's just too good. This allows for 1 frame where the opponent can shield the oncoming up-b. This does not get rid of jab to d-smash combos though.
-Sheik ftilt fine tuned: hitbox 1: 64 BKB, 50 KBG down from 85, launch angle 80 from 70
Fine tweaks to prevent locks.
-Zelda Fsmash hitbox 1+2: 60 KBG down from 100, 330 launch angle
-Zelda Fsmash hitbox 3+4: 60 KBG down from 100, 200 launch angle
-Zelda Usmash hitbox 1+2: 55 KBG from 100
-Zelda Usmash last hit 40 BKB from 30, 182 KBG from 180
-Zelda nair hitbox2 70KBG from 90
These moves should now properly link together the whole time now.
-Zelda Fair sweetspot: 2x size
B-air was better in every single way. Though a little too large right now, this gives F-air a use.
Frame Speed Additions / Tweaks:
-Ganon aerial murder choke endlag 2x speed
If you teched the aerial side-b you could punish Ganondorf before he recovered from the lag. A few characters (like DK) could even do a getup attack before he recovered.
-Ike sideB start-up time 1.333x
A slight buff to it's tech chasing use. It took 18 frames to be able to release the attack after pressing side-b and it now takes 13.5
-Ike sideB swing winddown 3x after frame 15
Helps his recovery when he swings it in the air and also makes hitting the shield less of a huge mistake to punish. It created edge waiting games. Basically you can't f-smash Ike after a side-b anymore. You'll have to grab, jab or tilt.
-Luigi grounded upB: frame 5, .5x; frame 6, 1x (adds 1 more frame of startup)
See the other Luigi info.
Physics Changes:
Marth FH raised to 1.1 from 1.075
Physics fine tuning for his aerial and juggle game.
Code Changes:
-Ledge invulnerability is now at 28 from 34 in 4.1 (vB was at 23, lagless ledges required a 11 boost), so now halfway between vB and pre-4.1
Edgehogging was too easy and the ledge was too safe in the official set.
EDIT: Take it up with Cape Mauser, he was the one that did the changes to Ivy. We all agreed the old Ivy was TOO razor leaf centric. Was it OP? No, but it was shallow and boring to fight and probably play. Once you learned the matchup before it wasn't tough to shut Ivy down. We gave her more versatility. That being said, I'm a little upset you think we just nerfed Ivy cause we didn't want him to be good.
Hitbox Additions / Tweaks:
-Bowser utilt increased in size 25%
Bowser should be able to hit people behind him with the u-tilt now as well as punish poor airdodges.
-Bowser upsmash (all hitboxes) increased in size 25%
Impoves the moves ability to punish air-dodges. Fast fall an air dodge through the U-smash and you'll get hit.
-Falcon dair sourspot is now a nipple spike (down angled away at 45º)
The sourspot wasn't useful for anything and it was something Falcon mains wanted.
-Ganon bair increased 25% in size of his b-air and KBG 90 from 85.
Gets rid of the deadspot behind him allowing him to alleviate pressure from behind him a little better.
-Ganon f-air was increased 25% in size
Allows him to space more effectively with it and apply pressure better.
-Kirby fsmash hb1 KBG dropped to 89 from 98, hb2 87 from 96, hb3, 85 from 94
Kirby was a little too good and it is a tradeoff with his N-air buff from the 4.0 official set.
-Luigi Jab1: KBG dropped to 87 from 100, BKB 0 from 0, DMG 3 from 3
Jab to up-b was a legit combo on at least 4/5th of the cast. That's just too good. This allows for 1 frame where the opponent can shield the oncoming up-b. This does not get rid of jab to d-smash combos though.
-Sheik ftilt fine tuned: hitbox 1: 64 BKB, 50 KBG down from 85, launch angle 80 from 70
Fine tweaks to prevent locks.
-Zelda Fsmash hitbox 1+2: 60 KBG down from 100, 330 launch angle
-Zelda Fsmash hitbox 3+4: 60 KBG down from 100, 200 launch angle
-Zelda Usmash hitbox 1+2: 55 KBG from 100
-Zelda Usmash last hit 40 BKB from 30, 182 KBG from 180
-Zelda nair hitbox2 70KBG from 90
These moves should now properly link together the whole time now.
-Zelda Fair sweetspot: 2x size
B-air was better in every single way. Though a little too large right now, this gives F-air a use.
Frame Speed Additions / Tweaks:
-Ganon aerial murder choke endlag 2x speed
If you teched the aerial side-b you could punish Ganondorf before he recovered from the lag. A few characters (like DK) could even do a getup attack before he recovered.
-Ike sideB start-up time 1.333x
A slight buff to it's tech chasing use. It took 18 frames to be able to release the attack after pressing side-b and it now takes 13.5
-Ike sideB swing winddown 3x after frame 15
Helps his recovery when he swings it in the air and also makes hitting the shield less of a huge mistake to punish. It created edge waiting games. Basically you can't f-smash Ike after a side-b anymore. You'll have to grab, jab or tilt.
-Luigi grounded upB: frame 5, .5x; frame 6, 1x (adds 1 more frame of startup)
See the other Luigi info.
Physics Changes:
Marth FH raised to 1.1 from 1.075
Physics fine tuning for his aerial and juggle game.
Code Changes:
-Ledge invulnerability is now at 28 from 34 in 4.1 (vB was at 23, lagless ledges required a 11 boost), so now halfway between vB and pre-4.1
Edgehogging was too easy and the ledge was too safe in the official set.
EDIT: Take it up with Cape Mauser, he was the one that did the changes to Ivy. We all agreed the old Ivy was TOO razor leaf centric. Was it OP? No, but it was shallow and boring to fight and probably play. Once you learned the matchup before it wasn't tough to shut Ivy down. We gave her more versatility. That being said, I'm a little upset you think we just nerfed Ivy cause we didn't want him to be good.
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