Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[FrozenHobo]

ok, i do have a complaint now. occasionally when playing ICs, nana will randomly teleport, sometimes off the edge of the stage. i don't know whats causing this or if there is anyway to fix it, but it is annoying that i have to worry about her appearing somewhere that might kill her.

 

[GHNeko]

ok, i do have a complaint now. occasionally when playing ICs, nana will randomly teleport, sometimes off the edge of the stage. i don't know whats causing this or if there is anyway to fix it, but it is annoying that i have to worry about her appearing somewhere that might kill her.

We know about this. We though t we fixed it but I guess not.

 

[cobaltblue]

I fail to see how Sonic with his unlimited energy power source that isn't really his anyway would stand up to Ness'/Lucas' unlimited energy power source that is canon wise their power ^_^

Outside power soruce would be less dranning than generating your own.

Its like comparing a guy hooked up to a power grid vs. a guy hooked to a car battery. Granted both have unlimited here though.

Anyways any future sonic changes coming?

 

[CountKaiser]

For Sonic, I bleieve poeple are discussing a slightly faster bair and are tweaking the usmash spike.

And Hyper Sonic > Anything.

Except Seven Force, of course. >.>

 

[ZodiakLucien]

also make sonics initial dash speed higher, his dash dance suck cause of the slow acceleration. He should have a really good dash dance like fox or sheik. Also wolfs side B should act like a knee.

 

[Yingyay]

Or just leave sonic the way he is?
Is he really in need of something like what you guys are mentioning?
Like seriously....a faster bair? Why? Is his current Bair that slow that it can hit anything? It was already sped up tho.
The usmash spike...........i thought it was gone and was gonna stay that way?
His dash dance....idk not a big deal

 

[cAm8ooo]

Also wolfs side B should act like a knee.

lol this

Spoiler

would be really funny.

 

[GHNeko]

also make sonics initial dash speed higher, his dash dance suck cause of the slow acceleration. He should have a really good dash dance like fox or sheik. Also wolfs side B should act like a knee.

...lolwut. How does he have slow acceraction. He's one of the characters that reaches his top speed ridiculously quick. The only rival is falcon.

10

 

[ZodiakLucien]

dash dance with falcon then dash dance with sonic. you will see that falcon covers a lot more distance cause of his initial dash speed, sonic doesnt go nearly anywhere cause his starting speed is so slow.

 

[CountKaiser]

A dash dance is dependent on how long the initial dash animation is. Falcon's is long, so he has a large dash dance. Sonic's is short, so he has a small dash dance.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I've actually been thinking lately of what to suggest to improve Wolf's Side-B. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything at the moment that doesn't make it OP'd, or doesn't make it too similar to Fox and Falco's, which is what we DO NOT want.

Have we as a consensus agreed that Wolf's Side-B will forever be one of his less useful moves, or is that an improvement people are looking for that hasn't been talked about much?

 

[Plum]

Or just leave sonic the way he is?
Is he really in need of something like what you guys are mentioning?
Like seriously....a faster bair? Why? Is his current Bair that slow that it can hit anything? It was already sped up tho.
The usmash spike...........i thought it was gone and was gonna stay that way?
His dash dance....idk not a big deal

The Usmash spike was stupidly shot down.
Now I could be wrong on this, but to me it seems like a whole bunch of Sonic mains who don't even care about Brawl+ just came out of nowhere and complained about it so much that it was just left out. The people that did complain about it were just afraid of any slight change to their dearest Sonic, even if it made no change to the way they wanted to play Sonic (as a hit and run character who relies on punishing) and allowed others to play Sonic in a different way.

If anything, it played into relying on punishment because you have to predict the opponents reaction and PUNISH that reaction... *sigh*

How does Sonic not have a good dash dance o_O

 

[ZodiakLucien]

I'll still say make it a knee, risk/reward move. Kaiser I did not know that, just seemed like sonics was bad cause of speed not a predetermined initial dash distance. Is it possible just to bump that?

 

[GHNeko]

I'll still say make it a knee, risk/reward move. Kaiser I did not know that, just seemed like sonics was bad cause of speed not a predetermined initial dash distance. Is it possible just to bump that?

Why? Sonic has more options avaliable with a shorter init dash as he can DC sooner, and with his massive speed an acceleration, he needs the ability to DC immediately because he covers alot of distance in a short amount of time.


Thats my issue with Marth, he has a pretty fast dash, but his long init dash kills his DC options such as DC dtilt and DC pivot fsmash.

 

[Revven]

I'll still say make it a knee, risk/reward move.

It's in the works Lucien, you can stop talking about it lulz.

Here's what GoG has planned for it: On impact with the sweetspot, Wolf can jump afterwards, the sweetspot will not be a spike but rather send I'd imagine in the same way Falcon's knee sends them. When he DOESN'T hit someone, he falls like usual (you know, teh fallspecial). It will only allow you to jump if you successfully hit someone with the sweetspot which hopefully can be done with CAM.

 

[FrozenHobo]

oh, i've also noticed that crouch canceling doesn't work sometimes. today i've dashed to the edge of a stage to gimp with a dtilt only to dair right of the side.

 

[leafgreen386]

Why? Sonic has more options avaliable with a shorter init dash as he can DC sooner, and with his massive speed an acceleration, he needs the ability to DC immediately because he covers alot of distance in a short amount of time.


Thats my issue with Marth, he has a pretty fast dash, but his long init dash kills his DC options such as DC dtilt and DC pivot fsmash.

Thats my issue with Marth, he has a pretty fast dash, but his long init dash kills his DC options such as DC dtilt and DC pivot fsmash.

but his long init dash kills his DC options such as DC dtilt and DC pivot fsmash.

DC dtilt and DC pivot fsmash.

DC pivot fsmash.

DC pivot

DC pivot

Uh... hello? You pivot from a dashdance, not from a DC.

 

[Revven]

oh, i've also noticed that crouch canceling doesn't work sometimes. today i've dashed to the edge of a stage to gimp with a dtilt only to dair right of the side.

Change your buffer, you may have it set too high or not letting go of your control stick early enough. lol

 

[GHNeko]

Uh... hello? You pivot from a dashdance, not from a DC.

... Dash. Dash Cancel, C-stick in the opposite direction.

piv·ot

(pĭv'ət)
n.

1. A short rod or shaft on which a related part rotates or swings.
2. A person or thing on which something depends or turns; the central or crucial factor.
3. The act of turning on or as if on a pivot.
4. Basketball
   1. A position taken by an offensive player usually facing away from the basket near the foul line to relay passes, attempt a shot, or set screens.
   2. The stationary foot around which the ball handler is allowed to pivot without dribbling.

v. piv·ot·ed, piv·ot·ing, piv·ots

v. tr.

1. To mount on, attach by, or provide with a pivot or pivots.
2. To cause to rotate, revolve, or turn.

 

[thesage]

Wow ok, lots of stuff was posted O___O;

I think grounded PK Fire is pretty alright. Aerial PK Fire is the one that needs work.

Aerial pk fire needs to be as fast as Shiek's aerial needles to be safe at all and that's obviously not happening. Aerial pk fire was always unsafe. I would prefer a buffed ground pk fire so it's already safer and it's the one easier to combo with. I dunno if both are linked together though...

Utilt has a pretty good hitbox, and I really love the move as it is.

U-tilt's vertical range is good, it's horizontal range sucks, really badly, when trying to hit somebody on the ground.

Dtilt to utilt hits pretty well to reset them, though it doesn't true combo.

I really have to ask you how you hit with this... I don't see that working against a player at all lol. D-tilt has no vertical knockback...

I like this move, so I'll have to disagree with a uair buff.

Uair is terrible. It's range sucks, doesn't do that much damage, leaves you open if you miss, startup lag, and doesn't combo that well. Either make it a kill move or a combo move, it's doing neither very well right now.

Again, yoyo buffs aren't a priority for me, but everyone else seems to think they'd help. So it seems worth a shot.

His d-smash was one of his best moves in smash 64. How I want to fix them:

Make them move like they did in smash64. I can't really explain this except for somebody to see for themselves. I'm too lazy. Make u-smash not clank with aerials anymore. Make d-smash be able to edgeguard people.

People want to fix fair, but give no ideas as to how to fix it. I have a few suggestions

Make the hitboxes 10% bigger
Make it stun shields enough to allow shield pressure by increasing BKB
Give the final hitbox more KBG

The hitbox size is fine IMO, I mean it is just as long as Marth's fair. All it really needs is for it to do more damage. I think that would give it more shieldstun, knockback and hitstun so that solves a lot of problems it has. If it seems it's too good give it some more ending lag.

Honestly, I have no trouble sweetspotting the edge, even though I usually don't sweetspot the edge. I can still sweetspot the edge if I wanted to, though I wouldn't mind it being more reliable. I just don't expect this to be done.

Try sweetspotting on yoshi's island from below the stage. It's not possible from certain distances.

It is possible to sweetspot on FD and BF if you aim for the curved parts of the stages and Ness still has enough momentum from his up-b. It's also easier to sweetspot on the left side of the stage since Ness rides walls on that side. BF and FD are the easiest neutral to sweetspot on.

I don't know anything about Lucas' pkt2 sweetspots...

As for the bat, I'd like it to do either more damage than it does now, or give it insane KBG. Preserve the speed of it, though. It helps to make Ness unique from Lucas, and I'd hate to see these two moves be too similar to each other.

Why does speed make something unique? I already mentioned that Lucas doesn't have to sweetspot and has more range. That makes them way different already. Making it super powerful won't make a difference since it's still hard to land. If you just sped it up (startup lag, don't care about ending lag) then they would still be very unique moves.

Dash attack was given less endlag so that Ness could follow up with an aerial, possibly a uair for the kill.

It's major problem is it's startup lag and tiny hitboxes. Considering it can combo into grab I think, it doesn't need to be give less ending lag...

For ness.

Couldn't we just give ness's up B transcendent priority like lucas's so he wouldn't need mulitiple up-B's?

Lucas' up-b doesn't have transcendent priority. MK has transcendent priority with most of his moves, Lucas' up-b can actually clank with moves.

For Uair IMO just changing the cooldown time (lower of course), and making it have a very low starting KB with a good KB increase as damage goes up would fix that IMO (so it would combo well at lower % and then kill normally is the idea)

Mayhaps.

Well, Super Sonic can move at and rapidly decelerate from the speed of light. Hyper Sonic can move even faster than that (logic break). And they're both invincible.

Ness and Lucas can't even think that fast, let alone fight with something like that. xD

Ness can stop time and Lucas can powershield anything Sonic hits him with. gg.

TL,DR: Just go with 4 or 5 of my original suggestions...

 

[_clinton]

Ah. I didn't know it could be turned around like that. The magnet can still be done to slide backwards after a PKF, but going the direction you are facing...haven't tested that yet.

So...you can pull off a magnet in a full hop after PK Fire (as in not using the 2nd jump)? Well...maybe I should just practice more I guess...

4 different hitboxes? I need to look up Ness frame/hitbox data. I only knew of two.
Assuming all of these are at different points along the bat and not above it as a sort of "whiff hit", maybe equaling these out to the second hitbox and buffing the tipper would be the best course of action?

I guess I said it wrong...

There are 4 different spots on the bat that do different damage and have different KB is what I mean...the tip does 25 and does the most...Ness' hands do 18% and have the lowest...

Well, Super Sonic can move at and rapidly decelerate from the speed of light. Hyper Sonic can move even faster than that (logic break). And they're both invincible.

Ness and Lucas can't even think that fast, let alone fight with something like that. xD

PSI Teleport lets you move anywhere in space in an instant...as long as you know of the location

Also I have yet to see this happen from Sonic getting powered up (as in just getting his power)...
BTW Spoilers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RCZOO5VYI8

Also I should point out that the main power Ness and Lucas use is a psychic power that lets the user create, destroy, and change as he pleases...and if it went out of control and the user couldn't handle it for some reason...then what you get is Giygas (because as far as the EB series goes...the only characters who have used the main power are Giygas, Ness, Lucas, and The Masked Man)

Aerial pk fire needs to be as fast as Shiek's aerial needles to be safe at all and that's obviously not happening. Aerial pk fire was always unsafe. I would prefer a buffed ground pk fire so it's already safer and it's the one easier to combo with. I dunno if both are linked together though...

Aerial PK Fire by itself was always unsafe I'll admit...but the advanced tricks you could do with it added a level of play to Ness' game and they did make it a much better move if you used them well...

U-tilt's vertical range is good, it's horizontal range sucks, really badly, when trying to hit somebody on the ground.

Yep...that is the thing I was thinking of as well (even if right now I would like a vertical range increase because it would help on stages like BF more)

His d-smash was one of his best moves in smash 64. How I want to fix them:

Make them move like they did in smash64. I can't really explain this except for somebody to see for themselves. I'm too lazy. Make u-smash not clank with aerials anymore. Make d-smash be able to edgeguard people.

Would that work if we made the Yoyo's have the same properties as the tail of PK Thunder?

Try sweetspotting on yoshi's island from below the stage. It's not possible from certain distances.

It is possible to sweetspot on FD and BF if you aim for the curved parts of the stages and Ness still has enough momentum from his up-b. It's also easier to sweetspot on the left side of the stage since Ness rides walls on that side. BF and FD are the easiest neutral to sweetspot on.

I don't know anything about Lucas' pkt2 sweetspots...

Lucas' seem to work the same way as Ness' for PKT2...only he has more range to work with of course...anyway thanks for that info

Why does speed make something unique? I already mentioned that Lucas doesn't have to sweetspot and has more range. That makes them way different already. Making it super powerful won't make a difference since it's still hard to land. If you just sped it up (startup lag, don't care about ending lag) then they would still be very unique moves.

I think in this case it is because people view Ness' bat as being a harder hitting move than the stick sort of how some people wanted Bowser to be less floaty because they thought it would fit him more...

Personally I can see the point of power right now as well (comparing it to Ike's Fsmash...the only way you'll land that is if they make an error is what I mean...well Ness' bat is on the level of difficulty that Ike's Fsmash has with landing IMO)

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I've actually been thinking lately of what to suggest to improve Wolf's Side-B. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything at the moment that doesn't make it OP'd, or doesn't make it too similar to Fox and Falco's, which is what we DO NOT want.

Have we as a consensus agreed that Wolf's Side-B will forever be one of his less useful moves, or is that an improvement people are looking for that hasn't been talked about much?

Why do you want to make Wolf's every move useful?
He's friggin' good right now, very balanced. Plus he can even spam his Smashes. He's quite a pain to beat. Why is it that you want buffs?

 

[GHNeko]

Why do you want to make Wolf's every move useful?
He's friggin' good right now, very balanced. Plus he can even spam his Smashes. He's quite a pain to beat. Why is it that you want buffs?

Wolf is really not that good imo. He's okay. A bit better than normal though. :V

Wolf's moveset has potential but it really hasnt been reached. He one of the character's we haven't messed with alot.

 

[Mattnumbers]

We don't need ALL the spacies to be top tier lol

 

[Wingflier]

Why do you want to make Wolf's every move useful?
He's friggin' good right now, very balanced. Plus he can even spam his Smashes. He's quite a pain to beat. Why is it that you want buffs?

He seems extremely good to me too. Because he was one of the few characters that actually had enough hitstun to do combos in vBrawl, this has translated in him being able to do combos much easier than most characters (from my experience) in this game.

All 3 of his smashes are extremely good, as opposed to most characters who only have 1 or 2 great smashes and then a weaker one.

He can juggle really well, he has a good projectile, and has good aerial ability as well.

On top of this, he moves and attacks very quickly for his heavy weightclass that nobody really knows how he got into, and has very little wind down on most of his moves.

I have been told that his side smash is "extremely punishable" but I fail to see how. It probably has the greatest range of any side smash in the game, can be spammed faster than most characters can roll, and he recovers from it almost instantly.

That doesn't sound punishable too me.

I'm not trying to jump on the band wagon, I'm just saying that maybe you guys should be careful about buffing him. I don't think it's really necessary.

Wing

 

[Cytrs]

i thought you didnt mess with him because he doesn't <i>need</i> it. if he's "better than normal" he's already tourney viable, so the brawl+ team shouldn't have to mess with him.

who <b>really</b> needs buffed as of now? all i can think of is ness (which people are talking about) bowser, the sonic things, & maybe DDD (i like him, but whatever)

is there anyone that needs nerfed/ changed (for deeper play)? besides a little bit more stun on luigi.

 

[SpookyGhost]

Not sure about this one, but maybe Olimar?
He seem so be left out in all of this.

 

[Cytrs]

olimar's a beast.

 

[CloneHat]

I don't see anything wrong with Wolf, I for one think he's at an ideal level of balance right now. His smashes are all very good, fsmash is only easily punishable if you happen to be facing towards Wolf at the end of the move. Lasers, strong aerial combos, and finishers compensate for his lame recovery.

 

[FrozenHobo]

olimar's a beast.

this. you really don't need to make oli stronger.

actually, a nerf to his pikmin-less nair would be appreciated.

 

[Wingflier]

I don't see anything wrong with Wolf, I for one think he's at an ideal level of balance right now.

I agree.

Lasers, strong aerial combos, and finishers compensate for his lame recovery.

Lame recovery? I think his recovery is above average at the least. Especially considering his weight class.

Wing

 

[Nybb]

i thought you didnt mess with him because he doesn't need it. if he's "better than normal" he's already tourney viable, so the brawl+ team shouldn't have to mess with him.

who really needs buffed as of now? all i can think of is ness (which people are talking about) bowser, the sonic things, & maybe DDD (i like him, but whatever)

is there anyone that needs nerfed/ changed (for deeper play)? besides a little bit more stun on luigi.

I don't know, on one hand, Wolf is theoretically pretty balanced. On the other though, it seems like his moveset could turn out really cool with a few tweaks...I vote to not shut the door on Wolf tweaks entirely, just to do other, more important things first.

I'm curious as to what you and others think DDD needs? I've heard it tossed around that he needs some help. I haven't played him too much, but he seems alright. The only thing I could see might be to buff his usmash; currently his utilt actually kills earlier and only does like 2 or 3% less damage, and I think the range is about the same. And I think utilt is faster just eyeballing it.

I think a lot of people assume he is bad without the chaingrabs, but he has received some other buffs to compensate. It would be a little bit nice for him to get back some kind of DI-dependant chaingrab, since his grab game kind of defined his character. I'm not sure if it would be possible to give him a weak chaingrab without restoring the infinite garbage though.

No one in smash stands a chance against Ness canon wise (except maybe Sonic with chaos emeralds). >.> But that's why they're trophies. xD

Yup...

Nice. xD

Oh hai

 

[Cytrs]

i said i didn't really agree. there just needs to be something telling people how to play without cgs (im good with him, though).

a faster dash attack or more growth on it would be filthy. might brake him, though.

 

[cubaisdeath]

We don't need ALL the spacies to be top tier lol

if it happens it happens. there isn't even a tier list, so shut up

 

[Jimbo_G]

Ehh, I thought chain grabs in general were some of the ghey things Brawl+ intended to be rid of? Only a few select characters have chains grabs now, and even then they only land 2 or 3ish (and that's if you're an idiot opponent). I was hoping we could keep it that way. =/

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't see anything wrong with Wolf, I for one think he's at an ideal level of balance right now. His smashes are all very good, fsmash is only easily punishable if you happen to be facing towards Wolf at the end of the move. Lasers, strong aerial combos, and finishers compensate for his lame recovery.

Actually his fsmash is going to be near worthless soon enough if we don't fix it. It's currently possible to tech it and punish wolf for using the move, so once people start learning the timing for that, well... good bye fsmash. I need to check to make sure, but I think the opponent has frame advantage, which, to say the least, is kinda stupid.

 

[Cytrs]

i dont want the chaingrab.

 

[MK26]

Oh hai

EDIT: so this doesnt count as spam, I think wolf is fine as-is. Nice combos, but easily gimped. WHat would happen if we slowed down the movement portion of the side-b? Would that stop it from teleporting?

 

[_clinton]

who <b>really</b> needs buffed as of now? all i can think of is ness (which people are talking about) bowser, the sonic things, & maybe DDD (i like him, but whatever)

is there anyone that needs nerfed/ changed (for deeper play)? besides a little bit more stun on luigi.

Well I was at 1st thinking about Samus...but I don't know right now because of the things that are better on her...
I mean...
Fsmash-lower base knockback (90 from 100), but it has a higher base
Nair-clearly buffed
Charge Shot-clearly buffed in BKB and KBG
Super Missiles-buffed in speed, KBG, angle, and damage
Homing Missiles-buffed in speed
Standing grab-buffed in cooldown

Zair has landing lag now (I guess you have your reasons)

But I want to take her out for a spin and see if Samus' main issue (killing) has changed at all from this...

However, there are some buffs I've always wanted on her...how about something like her dash attack having super armor frames on it?
I'd also like her jab speed to be buffed (at least as far as cool down time goes...compare for example her jab in SSB to the one in SSBB and you'll see what I mean ^_^)

Also...as far as special effects go...how about her Fsmash and the 2nd hit of her jab having an explosion special effect when it hits?

Oh hai

Yes, I'm sure Mewtwo would beat Ness...



I mean...I only made a post pretty much giving away that Ness' main power canon wise is a creation level power...but whatever...

 

[metaXzero]

^But does he have mastery of that? Is it potential thing or by the end of the game, he's as powerful as Giygas? :/

On-topic: How goes work on Ness' Yoyo?