Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[FrozenHobo]

There seems to be a substantial group of vocal ness players asking for buffs - i just wish other characters had this kind of support. Makes the whole buff/nerf thing really unbalanced.

well i would ask for IC buffs, but pretty much all of the big stuff i asked for has already been implemented....


<3 blizzard

 

[Deleted member]

:/ It just feels like the squeaky wheels are getting the grease. I'm hopeful that the Brawl+ build team knows this and work around it.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

well i have asked for Falco buffs, but pretty much all of the one thing i asked for has already been implemented....


<3 shine

10didyouseewhatididtheres?

 

[FrozenHobo]

10didyouseewhatididtheres?

ololololoicwatudidthar!

 

[Shell]

Squeaky wheels do tend to get the grease first, but every wheel will be tended to in due time. The collective expertise of the WBR covers every character.

Don't worry about it, DeLoRtEd1.

 

[Cytrs]

ness does need the buffs, and i hope the backroom puts em in.

tink doesnt need this at all, but could you lower bair's base knock back a lil bit, but not raise growth?

and a few choice damage/ kbg ups with bowser. i dont main or even use him, so i cant say what.

just trying to appease DeLoRtEd1.

 

[Teronist09]

Cross-ups means going through the opponent to get behind him. At least in a Smash sense.

thus most of the options you listed only work from a shield release which takes 7 or 8 frames.

I'm just saying that Ganon has a severe blindspot in the back and with how easy it is to apply shield pressure, he should have some tools to deal with that. Adding one extra tool won't drastically do much, but it's better than nothing.

Simply put, Ganon has serious issues with short people. <_<

I understood what you were talking about. bair would also come out after the 7 frame shield drop too and hit on frame 24, while nair and uair come out at 20-21, iDA around 17, and jab (likely) even earlier, so I see what your point is.

Why do we need to buff weaknesses and improve matchups when there's no real need to do so? I wasn't aware that those matchups vs little characters were broken to the point that he need's this. And even then, the buffs don't improve them by much (if at all).

 

[Cytrs]

just used bowser for a bit.
1. larger utilt hitbox (some disjointedness above his head) and a bkb nerf/ kbg buff.
2. u-air come out slightly faster.
3. fair kbg nerf.
4. nair bkb buff.
5.dair more downward bkb/kbg for air control and more damage.
6. jab has a slightly higher trajectory/ 2nd hit bkb buff.
7. bair gets lectric effect/lower trajectory.
8. d-tilt does more damage.
9. dsmash spikes (or d-tilt. spike should be about like falcos dair strength.)
10. slightly (small bit) higher second jump.

treat the buffs/ nerfs as a package.

 

[Shell]

Jumping out of shield, as far as I'm aware, does not play the shield drop animation. It takes Ganon roughly 6 frames to jump before you can start an arial. The bair hits on 10, so you'd be bairin' on 16.

Meanwhile, the Uair hitbox wouldn't get to the same place until 5 frames later (21). Nair isn't an option. Shield drop (7) to turnaround (1 frame) canceled into jab (3) is about 11 frames, and shield drop (7) turn around (1) canceled into iDA (10 frames) is 18 frames.

Admittedly, shield drop to jab is much better frame-wise, but the important thing about Bair is that you can jump out and space yourself while you're attacking.

And yes, depending on how adept your foe is at putting pressure on Ganon, it will cripple his game completely. This is just a tweak, hardly anything to remove the weakness.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i have a complaint about olimar's nair. it shouldn't be doing as much damage as it is without pikmin. currently he can do about 27-30 damage without any pikmin. i'm all for his pikmin being buffed, it gives him an even greater on stage presence, but making him powerful even without any pikmin seems a little too much.....

 

[Lil'E]

Why is it that Peach is the only character that can shoot hearts? Lucas and Ness' main psychic power is based off their emotions and is "the power of the earth" (Hell the default name for Lucas' main special PK Attack is PK Love)

Joke or not... I don't know, but this would be amazing. I don't know which of Ness's attacks would have the heart effects but Lucas needs to be giving out some PK Love.

 

[Teronist09]

Jumping out of shield, as far as I'm aware, does not play the shield drop animation. It takes Ganon roughly 6 frames to jump before you can start an arial. The bair hits on 10, so you'd be bairin' on 16.

Meanwhile, the Uair hitbox wouldn't get to the same place until 5 frames later (21). Nair isn't an option. Shield drop (7) to turnaround (1 frame) canceled into jab (3) is about 11 frames, and shield drop (7) turn around (1) canceled into iDA (10 frames) is 18 frames.

Admittedly, shield drop to jab is much better frame-wise, but the important thing about Bair is that you can jump out and space yourself while you're attacking.

And yes, depending on how adept your foe is at putting pressure on Ganon, it will cripple his game completely. This is just a tweak, hardly anything to remove the weakness.

Ah, I couldn't remember if it did or not so I just added it in. In any event, jumping is 7 frames, so it'd be 17 frames for bair and iDA. And you could always just wait till they've moved in front of you where those attacks can hit.

I would think you'd be able to evade their assault with iDA or a roll and go on the offensive, but admitedly I have little experience being under shield pressure. A tweak or not, it seems unnecessary to me, especially as it's a hitbox modification which I feel should be kept to more of a minimum than it seems it is, but I guess it doesn't matter. I've just been dissatisfied with the majority of the buffs Ganon's gotten.

 

[Shell]

Shoot me a PM elaborating on what exactly you've been so dissatisfied with and what you'd rather see and we'll talk about it.

 

[CloneHat]

Ganon's got 50% combos left right and center, but he's too slow and clunky to get into a position to use them.

 

[thesage]

Ok this is what I think is wrong with Ness. It's not that his moves are terrible (they're like average), or his combos are terrible (which do generally 20-30 damage, which is ok). Most of his moves have really low ending lag, but suffer from startup lag. He also is extremely easy to combo offstage, where he is really easy to edgeguard. He, however, has problems combo'ing people offstage or setting up for edgeguards. His best/only move to do this with is nair.

Nair isn't that great of a combo starter so that doesn't help much at all. Nair is his fastest aerial, coming out at 4 frames, but add on the fact that he takes 2-3 frames to get off the ground (not sure on this number, in melee it was 4 and in vbrawl it was 5, but since you guys messed with this I don't know how many frames it takes to get off the ground) that it has little range so you have to spend time setting up to hit with it and then finally add that you have to complete a sh to be able to follow up since Nair gets quite a lot of knockback at mid percents and it turns out not be that great of a combo starter.

Plus when you look at his edgeguarding game it consists of pk flash (which doesn't work against some characters), d-tilt (which is unreliable), offstage dj fair/nair (which forces him to recover with his up-b, which is risky), and dair (which doesn't work vs. some characters and is extremely risky).

His moves also generally do not do that much damage. I think his f-smash does like 20% now. All of his other moves do within 10-13 damage (if all the hits of fair connect I believe it's 15, but usually it does only 4-9...). I'm not counting pk flash/thunder2 for obvious reasons. His combos also generally don't do that much damage and usually consist of d-throw (which will be useless once people learn how to di it), fair, dair, and u-tilt. Uair can be di'd too far out horizontally so it acts like nair pretty much with a smaller hitbox so it's usually safer to use nair when you can hit with both. Dair has too much startup lag to start combos with and it has barely any shieldstun so it's not safe for approaches at all.

Ness doesn't really have a shield pressure game. It just consists of running grab. All of his moves have barely any shieldstun.

So in a condensed version: Ness is combo'd easily, while his combos don't make up for that. Ness is edgeguarded easily when his edgeguarding is meh. Ness's speed is average. His good moves have lots of startup lag or are hard to hit with due to their hitboxes (u-tilt). His projectile game is outclassed by almost every other character's projectile game and is easily nullified vs. somebody with experience.

So yea, buffs he could use:

Less startup/ending lag on pk fire so he has a projectile that can set up for combos.
Dair is faster. ~I really would like to see this, and I don't think it's broken and I could argue for this...~
B-throw is a better kill move and d-throw can't be di'd so easily (I know this can't be modified yet)
U-tilt is better at hitting people on the ground. ~I would like this...~
Sh is the lowest it can be to allow for sh dair autocancel so it works similarly to melee.
Fair does something when it hits someone.
Pkt2 sweetspots in a reasonable/reliable manner ~this is really needed, I know this can't be done yet~\
Uair doesn't send people so far away and is easier to hit with and faster (make it melee uair, which was probably his best aerial in that game) or make it kill earlier.
Bair kills earlier (People who di can survive past 130 and it's his best kill move) ~I think this should be done, but then it could ruin one of the best combo moves he has right now so IDK...~
Speed up bat and/or make the power difference b/t his bat and Lucas' more noticable (Lucas has more range and doesn't have to sweetspot, which makes it leagues better than it is right now even if they had the same speed).
Dj goes higher so he can follow people and recover better ~Solves two problems with one stone~
Make his u/d-smash work like they did in smash64.

I only expect 4 maybe five (wishful thinking here) of these to happen

The changes he has right now are:

Running attack has less ending lag (it's startup lag and lack of shieldstun and weird hitboxes are its problem so this doesn't help at all)
U-tilt has less ending lag (it's starup lag and range is it's main problem like with running attack)
Multiple aeriel pkt's + pkt has less lag (please keep this)
F-smash makes a better noise (not gameplay changing)
Lol@d-smash buffs
D-tilt was changed so it can't wall lock. It didn't wall lock that well before since it was possible to shield between hits, better characters have better wall locks (lol@Falco's jab) and the d-tilt can't trip anymore now for some reason... This was a nerf so obviously it didn't help him but it doesn't matter since d-tilt was pretty useless anyways, it just removed 2 of it's 3 possible uses.

This is of course IMO and I'm not that good so...

 

[GHNeko]

Ganon's got 50% combos left right and center, but he's too slow and clunky to get into a position to use them.

...like what? The only combo that I know is even remotely close to 50% is 2 Dairs. :V

 

[goodoldganon]

...like what? The only combo that I know is even remotely close to 50% is 2 Dairs. :V

I remember the days of untechable Choke and 50-60% combos were easy once Ganon got his hands on you...

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

So yea, buffs he could use:

Less startup/ending lag on pk fire so he has a projectile that can set up for combos.
Dair is faster. ~I really would like to see this, and I don't think it's broken and I could argue for this...~
B-throw is a better kill move and d-throw can't be di'd so easily (I know this can't be modified yet)
U-tilt is better at hitting people on the ground. ~I would like this...~
Sh is the lowest it can be to allow for sh dair autocancel so it works similarly to melee.
Fair does something when it hits someone.
Pkt2 sweetspots in a reasonable/reliable manner ~this is really needed, I know this can't be done yet~\
Uair doesn't send people so far away and is easier to hit with and faster (make it melee uair, which was probably his best aerial in that game) or make it kill earlier.
Bair kills earlier (People who di can survive past 130 and it's his best kill move) ~I think this should be done, but then it could ruin one of the best combo moves he has right now so IDK...~
Speed up bat and/or make the power difference b/t his bat and Lucas' more noticable (Lucas has more range and doesn't have to sweetspot, which makes it leagues better than it is right now even if they had the same speed).
Dj goes higher so he can follow people and recover better ~Solves two problems with one stone~
Make his u/d-smash work like they did in smash64.

I only expect 4 maybe five (wishful thinking here) of these to happen

This is of course IMO and I'm not that good so...

I think grounded PK Fire is pretty alright. Aerial PK Fire is the one that needs work.

Yes, faster dair.

Yes, better throws. (when possible) Can't we increase the damage of the throw to increase it's knockback right now though?

Utilt has a pretty good hitbox, and I really love the move as it is. Dtilt to utilt hits pretty well to reset them, though it doesn't true combo.

I actually like his SH now, but I could stand it going lower.

Wouldn't argue with fair being more effective on a shield.

Oh god yes. Sweetspotting is a pain.

I like this move, so I'll have to disagree with a uair buff.

More growth, less base?

Bat...meh. Would be cool.

Don't we have to increase his FH height too?

Again, yoyo buffs aren't a priority for me, but everyone else seems to think they'd help. So it seems worth a shot.

 

[Cytrs]

no comments on my bowser ideas?

 

[CountKaiser]

I think grounded PK Fire is pretty alright. Aerial PK Fire is the one that needs work.

Yes, faster dair.

Yes, better throws. (when possible) Can't we increase the damage of the throw to increase it's knockback right now though?

Utilt has a pretty good hitbox, and I really love the move as it is. Dtilt to utilt hits pretty well to reset them, though it doesn't true combo.

I actually like his SH now, but I could stand it going lower.

Wouldn't argue with fair being more effective on a shield.

Oh god yes. Sweetspotting is a pain.

I like this move, so I'll have to disagree with a uair buff.

More growth, less base?

Bat...meh. Would be cool.

Don't we have to increase his FH height too?

Again, yoyo buffs aren't a priority for me, but everyone else seems to think they'd help. So it seems worth a shot.

In terms of throws, messing with the damage should influence KB in an indirect manner, as damage a move does is included in the launch speed calculation.

People want to fix fair, but give no ideas as to how to fix it. I have a few suggestions

Make the hitboxes 10% bigger
Make it stun shields enough to allow shield pressure by increasing BKB
Give the final hitbox more KBG

Honestly, I have no trouble sweetspotting the edge, even though I usually don't sweetspot the edge. I can still sweetspot the edge if I wanted to, though I wouldn't mind it being more reliable. I just don't expect this to be done.

With the magic of high KBG and low BKB, a move can be both a good combo and kill move, making bair more useful.

Personally, I think uair is fine.

As for the bat, I'd like it to do either more damage than it does now, or give it insane KBG. Preserve the speed of it, though. It helps to make Ness unique from Lucas, and I'd hate to see these two moves be too similar to each other.

I'm not sure how Ness's dj works, as it applies an upward force that is then controlled by a downward force. This is why Lucas can zap jump, the PK fire nullifies the downward force. If Ness's DJ is linked to his FJ, then yes, the FJ would have to be changed as well.

And frankly, the yoyo buffs are useless, and I'd rather they be removed from the set in favor of more pressing buffs.

Dash attack was given less endlag so that Ness could follow up with an aerial, possibly a uair for the kill.

Utilt is fine, and I'd rather not mess with it's hitbox.


As for the bowser suggestions, utilt was already given a bigger hitbox, as was usmash.

When buffing bowser, it must be considered how he should feel. Bowser seems to be a tank in brawl and brawl+, a mainly defensive character. It is due to this that his Up-B OoS was buffed, to give him better defensive options. However, Bowser doesn't strike me as a character who should extensively combo. He strikes me as someone who should land a few choice hits, and thus keep the pressure on to outdamae him, while he simply outlasts you. The damage buffs to fair and ftilt were nice, and frankly I feel more damage buffs are in order.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Words and stuff.

I thought as much. Thanks for confirming.

Sounds good, as long as the BKB increase doesn't affect the multi-hit properties.

Try it on FD. It's stupidly difficult to get the ledge there without going downwards, at which point you're spike-bait for being above the ledge and edgehog bait for being stupid enough to aim your recovery downwards. And even if you don't, they can still gimp you by eating your PKT2 and then ledgeteching.
Ness is gimpable enough without making the edges ******** for him. Though since this is pretty much his big weakness (and likely not fixable without complete exemption from ASL), I won't complain if it can't be fixed.

Low BKB, high growth works for me.

Agreed on the uair.

PKF -> bad SDI -> Bat will be the new scrub slayer. xD

Hmm. If it can be done without messing up his FH height, I'm all for it. Though this one is pretty low on my priorities anyway.

Awww, c'mon. It's Ness. Bat and Yoyo are like...his signature moves.

I like the Dash attack. >.>;

Utilt is fun. Lucas' is more fun, but that's why I play both of the PSIKids. >.>

 

[Cytrs]

so... you think my proposed changes would make him combo too much?

edit: i just thought instead of giving blanket changes that wouldn't help him develop a more engrossing way of play, he could be given changes that would lead to deepen his metagame. currently he is a very straight forward/ simple "bait & punish" character, with nothing much besides that.

a slightly larger fair would be cool, too.

 

[Swordplay]

For ness.

Couldn't we just give ness's up B transcendent priority like lucas's so he wouldn't need mulitiple up-B's?



More about ness.....


Ness is SOOOOOO throw orientated. I don't think we can tweak ness to what he needs to be without the throw code. He needs it more than any other character in the game.

I guess what I'm sayin is I know people want him fixed and we can try to suggest things but I think the main way to fix him is to make every throw **** even more so I'd wait for the finished product

 

[GHNeko]

Ness with a dthrow winddown lag reduction could be pimp. Same with uthrow.

just used bowser for a bit.
1. larger utilt hitbox (some disjointedness above his head) and a bkb nerf/ kbg buff.

We already buffed the hitbox of utilt. A BKB nerf would be pimp, but KGB should be raised to compensate. It's a high % ko move.

2. u-air come out slightly faster.
3. fair kbg nerf.

Fair doesnt really combo well. It should be a kill move imo.

4. nair bkb buff.
5.dair more downward bkb/kbg for air control and more damage.

The move is pimp for tech chasing imo.


6. jab has a slightly higher trajectory/ 2nd hit bkb buff.
7. bair gets lectric effect/lower trajectory.

...lolwut


8. d-tilt does more damage.

YES. GOGOGO. Give the first swipe less kbg/bkb though so they can both connect.

9. dsmash spikes (or d-tilt. spike should be about like falcos dair strength.)

looolnah.

10. slightly (small bit) higher second jump.

No clue what this would do.

treat the buffs/ nerfs as a package.

:V

 

[CountKaiser]

@Tatsu: My post said words and stuff? I must be drunk or something. XD

Anyway, I usually don't play FD, as it has stupid edges. :<

And I want his signature move to be PSI Rockin' >.>

@Cytrs: That what your package seems to be suggesting. If I interpreted it incorrectly, I'm sorry.

@Swordplay: We'd need to give the PKT2 the slash effect, I believe.

@Neko: Stop saying :V. What does that even mean?

 

[Nybb]

Ness is SOOOOOO throw orientated. I don't think we can tweak ness to what he needs to be without the throw code. He needs it more than any other character in the game.

I guess what I'm sayin is I know people want him fixed and we can try to suggest things but I think the main way to fix him is to make every throw **** even more so I'd wait for the finished product

This. Ness had THE best throws in 64, they were just straight up more powerful than anybody else's. In Melee IIRC his fthrow had mostly set knockback to get people off the stage early, his u/dthrows were decent for setups, and then his bthrow was one of the most powerful in the game. He has historically been a character with strong throws.

I know this is not possible yet, but I think throws would be a great way to help balance him out once the codes allow it to be done.


Also, has it ever been discussed to give Ganon back his ability to shorthop > b-air > doublejump without touching the ground like he could in Melee? I suppose this would be accomplished by giving his Bair a slightly faster wind-down, since we shouldn't touch his shorthop height (it is perfect as it is). It was a really great mindgame, and I don't think many people would object to giving him a bit more in the way of approaches.

If this is already possible, then nevermind, but I've only been able to jump again out of a fullhop.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

@Tatsu: My post said words and stuff? I must be drunk or something. XD

Anyway, I usually don't play FD, as it has stupid edges. :<

And I want his signature move to be PSI Rockin' >.>

Totally did. S**t you not. >.>

I have a Giygas FD texture. It's epic.

Me too, but Yoyos and Baseball bats are the next best thing.

(:V looks like an emote to me, but eh. xD)

 

[GHNeko]

@Neko: Stop saying :V. What does that even mean?

(:V looks like an emote to me, but eh. xD)

 

[Shell]

Nybb -- I actually wrote a code to let Ganon do SH Bair/Uair DJ just a couple weeks ago. This might or might not make it into the set -- we'll talk about it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I f*cking knew it! D=<

 

[GHNeko]

I f*cking knew it! D=<

Sure you did.

:V

 

[Cytrs]

@GHNeku

bair for gimp/look cool. add kbg buff/ sweetspotish damage buff.

i said bkb nerf and kbg buff. you agreed with me.

scratch the jab bkb buff, instead a damage buff, bkb nerf, and slightly higher trajectory.

dair could do both

uair should come out faster, imo.

i want the d-tilt weak spike (or ike d-tilt level if they'll put it in, lol)

d-smash come out slightly faster

nevermind the hop.

 

[GHNeko]

@GHNeku
i said bkb nerf and kbg buff. you agreed with me.

Read it wrong. Sorry. :V

 

[_clinton]

Well this post is long...

-PSI Magnet lag reduction
-Aerial PKF lag reduction or speed up so PKF cancelling works again
-Yoyo buffs (what exactly is wanted here? Power, speed, both?)
-Shave 3-5 frames of off dair's startup
Any objections to this list?

Do we mean the same thing on the magnet boosts (because for Ness and Lucas' magnet I sort of want a start up time buff and a cool down time buff)?

As far as yoyos go...I do want both...but for different reasons (I'm happy with the damage done by them...however I'm not happy about how fast they go out and away and how they don't do certain things like Usmash being anti air)

I don't really care about their knockback (the only way they should kill IMO is from a stage spike)

Dair I agree on...as well as a PK fire boost just so PK Fire aerial cancel works again (although I also wouldn't mind a range increase to a point (not by much)

However, I still want an Fsmash boost of some sort...

There seems to be a substantial group of vocal ness players asking for buffs - i just wish other characters had this kind of support. Makes the whole buff/nerf thing really unbalanced.

Ness and Lucas are only getting this support from me because I know other characters are getting support...and the simple fact is...the more you change things...the more uneven they become in the 1st place...

I would have been happy from the start had the only thing that was fixed was the games very costly oversights on Ness and Lucas. For example, their whole 10+ frames of ground release...it isn't game sealing at the start as it was seen...but it is really annoying to deal with in the long run even as things went on (such as, while Marth's infinite in the long run didn't seem like a true infinite...it still affected things like for example...he had made his grab a kill move on the same level as Ness and Lucas' grabs on him with his 6 frame Dsmash which you really couldn't do anything about...because all he had to do was spam the c-stick down at the end...which was BS)

Joke or not... I don't know, but this would be amazing. I don't know which of Ness's attacks would have the heart effects but Lucas needs to be giving out some PK Love.

Canon wise...PK Rockin is = to PK Love...just saying

Less startup/ending lag on pk fire so he has a projectile that can set up for combos.

I agree at least for the aerial version of it...

Dair is faster. ~I really would like to see this, and I don't think it's broken and I could argue for this...~

Well...4 people want this now...

B-throw is a better kill move and d-throw can't be di'd so easily (I know this can't be modified yet)

Dthrow's DI base...it depends on how they DI still from what I've seen (as in it is pretty much the same as vBrawl still even with the extra hit stun...but at least it will work as a true combo sometimes)

U-tilt is better at hitting people on the ground. ~I would like this...~

Range increase would be nice (in this case a horizontal range increase is all I think it needs IMO...because otherwise it will just be a copy of Lucas')

Sh is the lowest it can be to allow for sh dair autocancel so it works similarly to melee.

I have mixed feelings about this...because right now his short hop does have some parts that are good (his Fair, Nair, and Uair from his short hop all hit foes on BF's lower platforms)

Fair does something when it hits someone.

I want hearts instead of sparks ^_^

But yeah...it would be nice to be able to use it in more ways than just defense (but I guess that is the point of making it be properly spaced)

Pkt2 sweetspots in a reasonable/reliable manner ~this is really needed, I know this can't be done yet~\

I don't get this...I haven't had that much bad luck with sweet spotting it...the worse that happens (which I guess is bad) is that I've sometimes overshot it by a bit and did something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJcr1wE5xw

Granted I do it more in Brawl+ than I do in vBrawl...

Uair doesn't send people so far away and is easier to hit with and faster (make it melee uair, which was probably his best aerial in that game) or make it kill earlier.
Bair kills earlier (People who di can survive past 130 and it's his best kill move) ~I think this should be done, but then it could ruin one of the best combo moves he has right now so IDK...~

I have mixed feelings on this as well...

For Uair IMO just changing the cooldown time (lower of course), and making it have a very low starting KB with a good KB increase as damage goes up would fix that IMO (so it would combo well at lower % and then kill normally is the idea)

How about for Bair you just change the angle on it or something like that so that if you DI it right it can still kill within a reasonable range?

Speed up bat and/or make the power difference b/t his bat and Lucas' more noticable (Lucas has more range and doesn't have to sweetspot, which makes it leagues better than it is right now even if they had the same speed).

I think I spent more than one post trying to explain why Ness' bat needs a buff by comparing it to Mario and Lucas' Fsmash...

Dj goes higher so he can follow people and recover better ~Solves two problems with one stone~

Well...how much higher?

Because I have thoughts on this as well...but I don't know what would be acceptable (I just want enough so that he can reach the top platform on BF so far...which really is maybe like a 10% increase or so)

Make his u/d-smash work like they did in smash64.

Such as?
I haven't played 64 sense I got Melee...but there are plenty of things this could mean (as in...do you want to remove their charge?)

Running attack has less ending lag (it's startup lag and lack of shieldstun and weird hitboxes are its problem so this doesn't help at all)

I think his running attack would be a lot better if it had a wind affect on it (so it would push away people who shield it...thus making it harder to counter by a point...and I think making it work on shields only would help make sure it doesn't lose its set up skill it does have)

Although I do see some issues with that (you'd have to avoid it if you are by the ledge other wise you'd get hit by the final hit boxes for one...but I have a question...is it possible to make a move have more than one different effect so far?)

U-tilt has less ending lag (it's starup lag and range is it's main problem like with running attack)

I don't see frame 5 as a bad start up lag...Mario's sweet Utilt comes out on frame 5 after all as well...

Multiple aeriel pkt's + pkt has less lag (please keep this)
F-smash makes a better noise (not gameplay changing)

Whoever put this stuff in pretty much made my day btw ^_^

In terms of throws, messing with the damage should influence KB in an indirect manner, as damage a move does is included in the launch speed calculation.

I wonder how much would need to be added on in order to fix Bthrow's neff?

People want to fix fair, but give no ideas as to how to fix it. I have a few suggestions

Make the hitboxes 10% bigger
Make it stun shields enough to allow shield pressure by increasing BKB
Give the final hitbox more KBG

Cool...however I feel just making the final hitbox of Fair having a lower angle would fix it even more and make it at the same time a more than deadly edge guarding tool...

Dash attack was given less endlag so that Ness could follow up with an aerial, possibly a uair for the kill.

I'm pretty sure the hitstun doesn't last long enough for that to happen though (or maybe I'm just too slow)

When buffing bowser, it must be considered how he should feel. Bowser seems to be a tank in brawl and brawl+, a mainly defensive character. It is due to this that his Up-B OoS was buffed, to give him better defensive options. However, Bowser doesn't strike me as a character who should extensively combo. He strikes me as someone who should land a few choice hits, and thus keep the pressure on to outdamae him, while he simply outlasts you. The damage buffs to fair and ftilt were nice, and frankly I feel more damage buffs are in order.

Bowser is also a powerful magic user...which is why I don't mind him being floaty (other than the fact that it helps him avoid being hit from 0-death in one setting of course)

Couldn't we just give ness's up B transcendent priority like lucas's so he wouldn't need mulitiple up-B's?

I'd hate that...the fact that Ness' Up special is faster overall than Lucas' just because it fades away makes him stand out better IMO (even if making him have transcendent priority would improve his recovery on his up special)

Ness is SOOOOOO throw orientated. I don't think we can tweak ness to what he needs to be without the throw code. He needs it more than any other character in the game.

I guess what I'm sayin is I know people want him fixed and we can try to suggest things but I think the main way to fix him is to make every throw **** even more so I'd wait for the finished product

I could see how this would be put in...
Fthrow has a low angle knock back...making DIing it harder when you are right by the edge...and making walk off stages more enjoyable to play as Ness

Uthrow...fixing the KB growth so that it does to fast fallers what it did in Melee...

Dthrow and Bthrow...talked about it already...

Totally did. S**t you not. >.>
I have a Giygas FD texture. It's epic.
Me too, but Yoyos and Baseball bats are the next best thing.
(:V looks like an emote to me, but eh. xD)

His psychic powers are his best thing...they are way better than his bat and yoyo (even if sense the 1st SSB I've wanted Ness to use the bat in more than just one move)

I have that Giygas FD texture as well actually...but I've also made my own EB textures (Paula, Jeff, Poo, and now I'm working on some textures for a certain dream world...because I want Falco to be a flying man)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Well this post is long...

No kidding. xD

I'll just reply to the parts aimed at me.

Do we mean the same thing on the magnet boosts (because for Ness and Lucas' magnet I sort of want a start up time buff and a cool down time buff)?

Yeah, that was the idea. What else would I mean by "PSI Magnet Lag Reduction"? o.o
I don't think Lucas needs it too badly though, as his carries momentum and has a hitbox with decent knockback and one of the best angles you can get without making the thing semispike.
If his gets buffed as well, I'd like it to get less of a buff than Ness', since his actually has a use as of now.

As far as yoyos go...I do want both...but for different reasons (I'm happy with the damage done by them...however I'm not happy about how fast they go out and away and how they don't do certain things like Usmash being anti air)

I don't really care about their knockback (the only way they should kill IMO is from a stage spike)

Ah, okay. More time with the hitbox out basically and less startup/winddown?

Dair I agree on...as well as a PK fire boost just so PK Fire aerial cancel works again (although I also wouldn't mind a range increase to a point (not by much)

Agreed.

However, I still want an Fsmash boost of some sort...

Crazy-KBG tipper would be nice.

His psychic powers are his best thing...they are way better than his bat and yoyo (even if sense the 1st SSB I've wanted Ness to use the bat in more than just one move)

I have that Giygas FD texture as well actually...but I've also made my own EB textures (Paula, Jeff, Poo, and now I'm working on some textures for a certain dream world...because I want Falco to be a flying man)

Of course, but fighting a medieval swordsman with a baseball bat, a yoyo, and your brain is pretty much the most bad a** fighting strategy ever.

Bat would make an awesome dair. There are far too many stomp style spikes in smash.

Magicant? On what stage? o.o

 

[_clinton]

Yeah, that was the idea. What else would I mean by "PSI Magnet Lag Reduction"? o.o
I don't think Lucas needs it too badly though, as his carries momentum and has a hitbox with decent knockback and one of the best angles you can get without making the thing semispike.
If his gets buffed as well, I'd like it to get less of a buff than Ness', since his actually has a use as of now.

I'm bringing up a buff for Lucas' Magnet because the extra gravity did affect his magnet pull in a - way (full hopped PK Fire wavebounce to Magnet Pull doesn't work)

I mean you agree with Ness' PK Fire boost just so he can use aerial PK Fire right...so what is wrong with fixing Lucas' magnet error from an error that was made in the coding (which like I said before...Ness was affected bad as well)?

Crazy-KBG tipper would be nice.

Well...I want an overall bat buff if we change the KB growth on it...

Of course, but fighting a medieval swordsman with a baseball bat, a yoyo, and your brain is pretty much the most bad a** fighting strategy ever.

Stat wise...that medieval swordsman wouldn't stand a chance vs. Ness canon wise of course...

Bat would make an awesome dair. There are far too many stomp style spikes in smash.

Yep...

Magicant? On what stage? o.o

I'm still working on things like the flying man actually...but in truth I was thinking about just making it Mother 1's Magicant (I <3 the swimming cat ok)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'm bringing up a buff for Lucas' Magnet because the extra gravity did affect his magnet pull in a - way (full hopped PK Fire wavebounce to Magnet Pull doesn't work)

I mean you agree with Ness' PK Fire boost just so he can use aerial PK Fire right...so what is wrong with fixing Lucas' magnet error from an error that was made in the coding (which like I said before...Ness was affected bad as well)?

Well...I want an overall bat buff if we change the KB growth on it...

Stat wise...that medieval swordsman wouldn't stand a chance vs. Ness canon wise of course...

Yep...

I'm still working on things like the flying man actually...but in truth I was thinking about just making it Mother 1's Magicant (I <3 the swimming cat ok)

Wait, we're talking about wavebounced PKF into a Magnet for more distance, right? Because that still works.
And if it didn't, wouldn't that be a fault of his PKF lag, gravity, and FH height rather than his magnet?

I suppose. The non-tippered hit being slightly weaker than Lucas' stick seems a fair trade though.

No one in smash stands a chance against Ness canon wise (except maybe Sonic with chaos emeralds). >.> But that's why they're trophies. xD

Yup...

Nice. xD

 

[_clinton]

Wait, we're talking about wavebounced PKF into a Magnet for more distance, right? Because that still works.
And if it didn't, wouldn't that be a fault of his PKF lag, gravity, and FH height rather than his magnet?

It is the fault of the gravity actually...but it appears you don't get what I mean because I've done a poor job at explaining it or so...so let me try again...in vBrawl...Lucas can full hop PK Fire...and then turn on his magnet before he hits the ground and if the player uses the B-stick right, he can travel across FD or so in pretty much the same amount of time as Sonic and can zigzag with it as well...but he can't do that in Brawl+, as Lucas hits the ground before he can turn on magnet or so...and it removes this trick because of it...

Here is a video of it in vBrawl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=JvuUzJ-eOsw

The trick I'm talking about is the one where Lucas uses a full hopped PK Fire and slams his magnet into that stuck up ***** Peach...I kid you not...that skill is very useful ^_^ and it doesn't seem to be in Brawl+ for the reasons I already talked about...unless it is...and I just suck and can't do it right ^_^

0:12-0:14 in case I'm still doing a bad job telling you what it is...

I suppose. The non-tippered hit being slightly weaker than Lucas' stick seems a fair trade though.

The bat has 4 parts on it that do damage in vBrawl...

The tip is only about a little bit stronger than Lucas' stick
The 2nd part is weaker than Lucas' stick by like over 10%
The 3rd part is weaker still
The 4th part is very weak...good luck killing with this part (I think it is still stronger than Marth's Fsmash sour spot though)

No one in smash stands a chance against Ness canon wise (except maybe Sonic with chaos emeralds). >.> But that's why they're trophies. xD

I fail to see how Sonic with his unlimited energy power source that isn't really his anyway would stand up to Ness'/Lucas' unlimited energy power source that is canon wise their power ^_^

 

[camelot]

I haven't really been in on this conversation, but is there still discussion over double-jump cancel for Ness?

Here's some suggestion I heard earlier: If Ness is in his double-jump animation, and uses an aerial attack, his vertical speed goes to zero, unless the jump button is held down.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

It is the fault of the gravity actually...but it appears you don't get what I mean because I've done a poor job at explaining it or so...so let me try again...in vBrawl...Lucas can full hop PK Fire...and then turn on his magnet before he hits the ground and if the player uses the B-stick right, he can travel across FD or so in pretty much the same amount of time as Sonic and can zigzag with it as well...but he can't do that in Brawl+, as Lucas hits the ground before he can turn on magnet or so...and it removes this trick because of it...

Here is a video of it in vBrawl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=JvuUzJ-eOsw

The trick I'm talking about is the one where Lucas uses a full hopped PK Fire and slams his magnet into that stuck up ***** Peach...I kid you not...that skill is very useful ^_^ and it doesn't seem to be in Brawl+ for the reasons I already talked about...unless it is...and I just suck and can't do it right ^_^

0:12-0:14 in case I'm still doing a bad job telling you what it is...

Ah. I didn't know it could be turned around like that. The magnet can still be done to slide backwards after a PKF, but going the direction you are facing...haven't tested that yet.

You'll have to excuse my Lucas ignorance, I never played him in vBrawl. xD

The bat has 4 parts on it that do damage in vBrawl...

The tip is only about a little bit stronger than Lucas' stick
The 2nd part is weaker than Lucas' stick by like over 10%
The 3rd part is weaker still
The 4th part is very weak...good luck killing with this part (I think it is still stronger than Marth's Fsmash sour spot though)

4 different hitboxes? I need to look up Ness frame/hitbox data. I only knew of two.

Assuming all of these are at different points along the bat and not above it as a sort of "whiff hit", maybe equaling these out to the second hitbox and buffing the tipper would be the best course of action?

I fail to see how Sonic with his unlimited energy power source that isn't really his anyway would stand up to Ness'/Lucas' unlimited energy power source that is canon wise their power ^_^

Well, Super Sonic can move at and rapidly decelerate from the speed of light. Hyper Sonic can move even faster than that (logic break). And they're both invincible.

Ness and Lucas can't even think that fast, let alone fight with something like that. xD