Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[shanus]

A NEW BTL SET WILL BE UPLOADED SHORTLY, WE FOUND A SLIGHT PROBLEM WITH LINKS NAIR AND WOLF SHINE.

it'll be online in a bit

 

[Mattnumbers]

It was mentioned earlier, but could you guys make it so Lucas doesn't become helpless after PK freeze and maybe buff the move in some way? Even if you don't buff it the non-helpless thing would be great.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I actually don't think Ness's up-b buff is that big a deal; I support it. Just hit Ness when he's recovering (and it's not like blocking his PKT1 does absolutely nothing to him). It just helps fixes one of the major character flaws that's keeping him from being tournament competitive (now that he no longer has double-jump canceling to help make up for it). But the buff isn't that drastic or anything. Someone more skilled would still likely win over the lesser skilled person, with or without this buff; this just helps Ness players with about the same skill as his opponent to actually contend at higher levels of play. (But once again, it's not that big a deal that it's there, so just get over it.)

I even don't like the side b sweetspotting either. Not only because not everyone has a side b sweet spot, but sweet spotting the ledge is a skill and something I don't think should be automatic...

Yeah, I totally agree; I hate how side-b can still auto-sweetspot. For example, in Melee, there's actually a reason to cancel Fox/Falco side-b early when attempting to sweepspot the ledge, since it allows you to sweetspot earlier at times, but now, it has the opposite effect when you cancel it. And the auto-sweetspoting makes it way to easy to sweetspot on stages that doesn't have a solid base (like the floating platforms on Delfino and Halberd); MUCH easier than in those situations in Melee (like on Kongo Jungle 64). I think this should be fixed as well.

PS: I find it funny how everyone refers to Ivysaur as a "she", despite it having such a low voice (especially when comparing it to its anime counterpart's voice).

 

[shanus]

7PM: The official BtL set is now online, check OP

 

[Plum]

PS: I find it funny how everyone refers to Ivysaur as a "she", despite it having such a low voice (especially when comparing it to its anime counterpart's voice).

I swear that PT's Ivy is called a she somewhere, whether its the Dojo or a trophy, but I don't know. I may just be crazy and remembering something that doesn't exist.

Can't check out the new build until tomorrow :\
Looking forward to it though.

 

[camelot]

Hey, there's a problem with Link's standing up-b. It skips one of the "strong" hitboxes in front... still hits with it in back, though. It's because of the frame speed change.

 

[_clinton]

I support Ness' PKT buff...the idea of having unlimited PKT1 is too great to pass off for more than just recovery...it adds a whole new level to his air game as well...

 

[toasty]

yessss @ clinton

btw, sorry to anyone I annoyed with my rants...narrow points of view just get to me and I end up just focusing on that as well

 

[CountKaiser]

Cape wanted me to suggest some things for Ness to make him good on-stage. Here are some things I'd like for you to consider.

Faster running speed (facilitates techchasing and helps ground game)
More momentum in jumps (better aerial movement)
Make fair more useful (improves aerial game, especially with momentum)
lower shorthop to a point where sh dair AC's (improves shff game, preserves techchase game)
Make the bat more useful, speed up maybe? (improves ground game with DC fsmash)

Some are mine, others are from other people. Ness is okay, he just seems to strike me as average.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

nvm, i was stupid. forget it

 

[_clinton]

Cape wanted me to suggest some things for Ness to make him good on-stage. Here are some things I'd like for you to consider.

Faster running speed (facilitates techchasing and helps ground game)
More momentum in jumps (better aerial movement)
Make fair more useful (improves aerial game, especially with momentum)
lower shorthop to a point where sh dair AC's (improves shff game, preserves techchase game)
Make the bat more useful, speed up maybe? (improves ground game with DC fsmash)

Some are mine, others are from other people. Ness is okay, he just seems to strike me as average.

I'd like to ***** about Ness' smash attacks for a second...

The bat would be more useful with a speed up, hell compare it to Lucas' stick: they have about the same KO power when the thing is tipped (the bat beats it by like 4% or so...it really doesn't matter)

Please compare Lucas' stick KO power for a second. The stick's KO power is around Mario's Fsmash if tilted up and with the sweet spot (However, the stick beats that by about 1% or so)

So here are the stats for vBrawl...

Ness' bat=120
Lucas' stick=124%
Mario's Firebrand tilted up with the sweet spot=125%

I mean still frame 21 sucks for a move that happens to have an extra add-on as a reflector (which btw Lucas' stick happens to beat Ness' bat in as well: they have the same boost...only Ness' bat is slower...so it is harder to use)

So...here are the stats on this for vBrawl...

Ness' Bat=Lucas' Stick in reflector properties (return speed and added %)
However, Ness' bat is frame 21, while Lucas' stick is frame 14...

Lets look at the yoyo: the Dsmash comes out on frame 9...but only KOs if fresh at 160% or more depending on various things. Now look at MK's Dsmash (or yeah how about any of those other fast Dsmashes)...frame 5 with ok KO power if fresh. However, the Yoyo's main issue is that it only has 2 hitboxes for a move that is suppose to be defensive, if the 1st hit box restored itself again until it was let go I would be happy with the speed (which I can see was improved)

So...for vBrawl...

Ness' Dsmash=frame 9 for starting to charge, then if that hits the next hit that will hit is the release

Putting a recharge on the Yoyo would do a few nice things. However, the big thing would be that it would improve the priority of the weapon because right now many attacks only clash with it.

 

[toasty]

cookiemonster...[edited] lol it happens

good **** Clinton

 

[cookieM0Nster]

lol, r u serious? nvm, i will edit my post. i didn't try out shanus' set, so I wouldn't kno.

that is cool then! I will look at that.

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't get why people are whining so much about the ness PTK1 buff. Seriously, it's not like it makes his recovery that much better. It's still a fricking horrible weakness. It just isn't as easy to gimp anymore, and requires a little actual thought. A ness player can't just EZ mode it back to the stage even with this buff, and if they aren't smart with their recovery, will still inevitably get gimped. It simply turned recovery for ness from being nearly impossible to simply improbable.

clinton: I'd rather buff ness's bat in power than in speed. I agree that for the speed it comes out it isn't powerful enough, but I don't think the answer is to make it faster.

Also, afaik, ness's dsmash has already been buffed.

 

[Yingyay]

If anything i think Ness's bat should bulk up in power and not speed as well.
Lucas got da speed while Ness has da powah! I really dont care about Ness's multiple upB anymore, the only thing that will save him is if the player can somehow sweetspot it, if not "TASTE MY BOOT"

Im glad Ivy's multiple upB isnt staying, i say give her/he/both? more horizontal movement when he/she/it/all three does it off stage and that will at the least give it/her/dude a better chance at coming back IF you guys really want to make recovering easier for watever reason.

PS: Ivy's side B wasnt spammable before, why is it now? its just giving a pretty powerful character Camping tools.

 

[JCaesar]

Ness is okay, he just seems to strike me as average.

What's wrong with that? Someone has to be average, otherwise it wouldn't be average. In fact, in an ideal game, every character would be average.

 

[_clinton]

clinton: I'd rather buff ness's bat in power than in speed. I agree that for the speed it comes out it isn't powerful enough, but I don't think the answer is to make it faster.

Also, afaik, ness's dsmash has already been buffed.

I know Ness' Dsmash was buffed (note how I said it in my post?)

However, I was just talking about the yoyo in general...

I'd rather have the speed buff...that way the reflector part of the bat doesn't have to suck...

 

[leafgreen386]

I know Ness' Dsmash was buffed (note how I said it in my post?)

However, I was just talking about the yoyo in general...

I'd rather have the speed buff...that way the reflector part of the bat doesn't have to suck...

Sorry. Was speed reading and I guess I missed that.

Anyway, ness has the PSI magnet if he has to deal with projectiles, and given the fact that most players know how to avoid getting hit by their own projectiles, not to mention the lag you would have afterward, it seems like a more logical choice would be to go for power, given that lucas already has speed.

 

[Yingyay]

I know Ness' Dsmash was buffed (note how I said it in my post?)

However, I was just talking about the yoyo in general...

I'd rather have the speed buff...that way the reflector part of the bat doesn't have to suck...

The fact that the bat reflects means it doesnt suck, have you ever reflected samus charge shot near point blank. I bet you the Samus player (no names mentioned lol) said everything about the bat except for it sucked. Just a little bit of timing practice wouldnt hur anybody.

 

[ToxiCrow]

clinton: i didnt no u had brawl+. we gotta play soon

and i'm really not trying to piss off the guys working on Brawl+ codes, and this has been asked before but i never got a clear answer.
Lucas and Ness go into helpless after using their neutral B in the air. now i know what you're thinking: why would Ness use PKFlash when he's offstage? well, tbh idk about him, but Lucas can actually use his PKFreeze. when it's wavebounced, it givs him a little boost . it can also be used to protect him when he's coming on stage (kind of like Zelda can use her sideB when coming on)

if you guys decide to keep them helpless after using their neutralB in the air, i will respect ur descision. afterall, u guys know more about B+ than i ever will. but can u atleast consider it? like have it in one of the nightly builds and if too many people argue against it then take it out.

 

[Yingyay]

clinton: i didnt no u had brawl+. we gotta play soon

and i'm really not trying to piss off the guys working on Brawl+ codes, and this has been asked before but i never got a clear answer.
Lucas and Ness go into helpless after using their neutral B in the air. now i know what you're thinking: why would Ness use PKFlash when he's offstage? well, tbh idk about him, but Lucas can actually use his PKFreeze. when it's wavebounced, it givs him a little boost . it can also be used to protect him when he's coming on stage (kind of like Zelda can use her sideB when coming on)

if you guys decide to keep them helpless after using their neutralB in the air, i will respect ur descision. afterall, u guys know more about B+ than i ever will. but can u atleast consider it? like have it in one of the nightly builds and if too many people argue against it then take it out.

This might be a good alternative to the whole Multiple Ness UpB thing eh? As well as secretly buffing Lucas out loud lol

 

[leafgreen386]

This might be a good alternative to the whole Multiple Ness UpB thing eh? As well as secretly buffing Lucas out loud lol

Um... no? No sane ness player would trade multiple PKT1s for a neutral B that doesn't go into freefall. If anything, it would be given to him in addition to what ness (and lucas) has(/have) already been given.

 

[goodoldganon]

INC Ness post from someone who barely plays the Mother Boys

So, here's my beef with Ness, but it also directly correlates to Lucas. When we started with a large amount of the character adjustments, Lucas was one of the original big 5 we knew that needed help. So we buffed him and brought him into line with the other characters. Ness has kind of been left to himself and until recently was deemed an acceptable character. Now here's my problem with Lucas and Ness:

They are becoming too **** similar! In my opinion, Lucas is an easier to use, higher payout character. Lucas kills easier, builds damage faster, recovers more effectively (and easily) and is overall just a superior character to Ness. Everything Ness can do, Lucas does it better. And here we are buffing Ness to do a lot of things Lucas can do, but that's just down right BORING!

Look at Falcon and Ganondorf. Two perfect clones that couldn't possibly play differently then each. For example, Ganon's Kick is actually useful and Falcon's is almost totally useless. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses and each goes about their game in radically different ways.

What I want to do with Ness is try something NEW and EXCITING to buff him back into range of the others characters. I don't think he needs an entire retooling, but giving him a few new exciting techniques would be far more fun then "Generic Bat Speed Up". I'd like to sit down and talk to Ness mains and give Ness something really special to truly make him different then his clone, cause right now I'd argue they are the 'cloniest' of the clones.

The one buff I had in mind was making his PK Adsorb (the down-b) super quick and buffing the windpush back on. A simple way to help give Ness some space, something different from Lucas, and to play towards his psychic abilities. I don't know if any other Ness mains agree with me, but I just find him to be a really boring character BECAUSE Lucas is in the game.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Can Sheik's needles be altered to function like their Melee counterpart?

 

[ToxiCrow]

Um... no? No sane ness player would trade multiple PKT1s for a neutral B that doesn't go into freefall. If anything, it would be given to him in addition to what ness (and lucas) has(/have) already been given.

this is what i'm asking for. i'm not asking to trade one for the other.

leaf: can we have the no neutral freefall for lucas??

They are becoming too **** similar! . . .Everything Ness can do, Lucas does it better. And here we are buffing Ness to do a lot of things Lucas can do, but that's just down right BORING!

i can see where you're coming from. especially with his buffed PKT1, but i'm not complaining; i'm observinng.

and down b is called PSImagnet, not PkAbsorb

 

[goodoldganon]

I just don't get the point. The move will NEVER be useful off the stage. Seems dumb...but whatever the requests have been passed on. No more discussing it. KK?

 

[Yingyay]

edit. Just read the above statement. thats a good idea. Shouldve done this with most of the characters that needed buffs and I agree with you on the whole Lucas thing. If Lucas wasnt in this game I'd pick up Ness again but its sucks that they made a clearly superior clone v_v and left Ness with his subpar moves. From what I used to know, I believe that the wind pushback on Ness's downB would be a cool Idea if done right. If messed up may wind up extremely broken, but i dont know how to go about it properly.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Goodoldgannon, Ness and Lucas are very different, they don't share a single aerial and they only have one similar smash. The only really similar things are their specials and they aren't even very similar in their actual use, they just look like they're the same. I fail to see how they are the cloniest of the clones if they aren't even clones : \

Also, in Vbrawl Lucas is NOT obviously superior to Ness. They are each about the same in how good they are. They even tied on the tier list.

 

[Yingyay]

It wouldn't really buff ness because he would die from falling to the bottom before he could get a PKF to where an enemy would be.

I was speaking out my *** that time I apologize for mentioning nonsense. I was kinda thinking if Ness had wavebouncing features like lucas it'd be cool, but it might not even matter. Read my nedited post tho, see if it makes sense

 

[shanus]

I dont get the point of adding no freefall to mother boys neutral B's. I have no reason even why your adamant about it. It doesn't even buff the character because if your using that move, your either sandbagging or going to lose anyway.

 

[goodoldganon]

I dont get the point of adding no freefall to mother boys neutral B's. I have no reason even why your adamant about it. It doesn't even buff the character because if your using that move, your either sandbagging or going to lose anyway.

Same. I see no reason to NOT add it though so we might as well...

 

[Mattnumbers]

I dont get the point of adding no freefall to mother boys neutral B's. I have no reason even why your adamant about it. It doesn't even buff the character because if your using that move, your either sandbagging or going to lose anyway.

The real reason I want it is because sometimes when you Bstick you do PK Freeze instead of PKfire/Psimagnet. If I do PK Freeze with it (It happens when you hit exactly in the corner of the c-stick, which is easy to do when trying to wavebounce) when I'm over the edge I fall to my death helpless.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

nvm, i wasn't here...

 

[Yingyay]

^ kinda being a bit biased there buddy

 

[ToxiCrow]

It is true that Lucas is better than Nes in Brawl+. This is the only thing that I agree with.

I main Ness, and what he is missing in Brawl+ is COMBO ABILITY! For example, look at Melee vids of a Ness player who calls himself Simna. HIS NESS BEATS PRO FOXES! THIS is what needs to be. I am not saying that he needs to be like himself in Melee, but he definitely needs speed for all of his moves, a shorter Short hop(for Upair combos), a faster fastfall, VERY little lag on his arials, and a Baseball bat with less lag! This is intergal to keeping Ness as a good character. He is the best Mother boy, he was the best Mother boy in Brawl, and now, he should be the best Mother boy in Brawl+. I am surethat other Nes mains will agree with most of what I am saying. Don't get me wrong, Lucas mainers: I know that you like your character, but this is IMPORTANT! It is like making Ike better than Marth, Jigglypuff better than Pikachu, and Bowser better than Mario: it just doesn't work!
Please understand what I am saying, people.

i agree with the combo ability part. but you're implying that Ness has to be better than Lucas because he was better than him in vBrawl, but that doesnt really make sense and it 's biased . i know Lucas in his current state is better than Ness by a landslide, but that wasnt intentional. i dont think the B+ backroom made it so that one has to be better than the other

i'd like it if Ness were better, but i dont want Lucas to get worse either. he was downright awful on vBrawl and the buffs he has now are great

 

[shanus]

Let's keep this to discussing nightly builds please and not begging for buffs. Keep posts with constructive criticisms and intelligent please.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

nvm, forget that I said anything

 

[leafgreen386]

Please understand what I am saying, people.

I understand that you're being completely idiotic about the whole thing, if that's what you mean. We don't make chars better or worse than other chars because they're "supposed to be." Frick, I can't even say that you lost my respect over this, since you never had any to begin with. It makes me wonder why I even read your posts. You act so childish sometimes all of the time.

 

[goodoldganon]

I understand that you're being completely idiotic about the whole thing, if that's what you mean. We don't make chars better or worse than other chars because they're "supposed to be." Frick, I can't even say that you lost my respect over this, since you never had any to begin with. Why do I even read your posts?

Cause I link them to you, and we laugh. I think we should pursue this 'supposed to be' avenue. I'm pretty sure no one could beat Ganondorf then except for Link...that ****er.

On topic, I think this is a great nightly build. Personally, I think a lot of the Link changes feel superfluous, but if the Link mains think it suddenly makes him great and fun then whatever...

 

[ToxiCrow]

Let's keep this to discussing nightly builds please and not begging for buffs. Keep posts with constructive criticisms and intelligent please.

sorry about that. i completely forgot the purpose of this thread.
to the guys working on B+: keep up the good work. i like B+ more and more as the new builds get posted.
i havent been this excited about Brawl in a looong time