Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[toasty]

I was simply citing examples of the kinds of things that do happen to Ness players. It is so much easier to say (in summary) "just be better"...honestly you might as well had just said "tires don exits" >_>

It's not going to catapult Ness to greatness or anything, but it removes a property that allows for horribly stupid and non-skill-related things to happen WAY too frequently and easily.

Edit: seriously, it's properties like the single upB--freefall and what can happen as a result that have caused Ness players to change mains, despite their efforts to try and play him at a high level. It's bad enough he's a ****ty character already! He's better in Brawl than in Melee to some extent, but STILL....god****!

Kaiser -- Not bad...I'd have to think about a lot of it and how it applies to his metagame to see how useful each one would be...[can't think much on new stuff right now, at work]

 

[Me_Aludes]

Having said that, a question about Lucario: I've heard is upB buff is the shiznit. It allows you to attack out of the end of it? How fast can this be done? Any vids?

His upB goes further than in vB, has less landing lag, is faster, doesn't put him in freefall state and if used horizontally while on the ground, you'll have zero landing lag and can attack at the end of it, giving him a new AT. You can also upB from the ground, attack, jump and upB again without touching the ground.

It's really good. Not broken though. Not needed also.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Sketch, name one character who can be gimped by you falling into their attack, causing them to die. Don't mention Ike, because his side-B was fixed.

No one can be gimped like that, which was one of my points: it's unique.

What I did suggest was that there are less risky gimps. Like simply hanging on the ledge vs Ivy and Oli (I know about Ivy's fix, but heard it was ******** and unnecessary, which is why I asked about it).

 

[shanus]

Updated with a new set. Link mains rejoice!

This will be the set used at Beyond the Limit. Notify me ASAP if you find any major bugs, etc.

 

[toasty]

Unique can mean "uniquely ****ty" you know.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Well, I'll quote myself since I posted quite a bit of what I wanted to say in another post:

At first, I'm questioning the whole idea of infinite PSI Thunder, but it was I believe mostly on the basis that Up B moves needing to generally cause the user to be helpless after using them.

However, the thing about infinite PSI Thunder is that it can still let Ness fight back. Ideally, what I would want to see is characters' individual off-balance and on-balance games fairly balanced out with each other. Case in point: Olimar. YoshSSB knows that Olimar's Up B is a tether recovery so he edgeguarded it in our match. However, the second time he tried it, I used the Pikmin Chain early enough that I latched onto the edge before he could, he got hit, and he bounced off the edge and to a demise that would have been early had his percentage not already been fairly high. And tiers consider the tether recovery his main, if not sole, weakness, with rather valid reason because he's rather powerful on-balance. Why do you think he rose up 8 spots? I don't think it could even happen simply because of things like the Whistle Armor.

Anyway, I hope Nintendo, in the next SSB, gives Ness or (preferably) Paula the infinite PSI Thunder. It would take only one measly change to the coding to do this anyway.

Plus what does Ness get for his own PSI Thunder compared to Lucas? He doesn't get much, I'll tell you that. Let's compare the two:

*Ness's get stopped if it hits an opponent. Lucas's doesn't.
*Ness's is harder to control than Lucas's barring muscle memory.
*Ness's PSI Thunder Missile just stops if it hits somebody. Lucas's comboes instead.

If I were Nintendo, Ness would get infinite PSI Thunder *and* the PSI Thunder Missile not causing Ness to be helpless if it gets a direct hit on somebody (kind of like CF's Up B and Side B). However, we'd want to make sure Ness's on-balance game isn't over the top as well.

(Actually, if I were Nintendo, Ness would have different, more canon B moves instead. Because Paula would be in and she would get Ness's B moves with Freeze replacing Flash.)

 

[CountKaiser]

No one can be gimped like that, which was one of my points: it's unique.

What I did suggest was that there are less risky gimps. Like simply hanging on the ledge vs Ivy and Oli (I know about Ivy's fix, but heard it was ******** and unnecessary, which is why I asked about it).

So why not keep jiggs brawl rest? It was unique, even though it was terrible. Why not change link to be a viable character? His moveset sucked, but the badness of it made it unique.

See the problem here?

 

[King Funk]

When is the PAL version of 5-12 coming?

 

[Shadic]

YES! New set!

Trying out now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Jiang, I can use that risk-reward argument against you.

Previously, there was NO risk in gimping Ness, all you had to do was fall into the PK thunder, and that was it. With this buff, there is now an actual risk in trying to gimp Ness. Instead of hitting the thunder, you have to hit HIM, and risk eating a PKT2, which could kill you. There's now an actual risk involved in trying to egdeguard Ness.

Uh.. you're recovering man. That's the whole game. You get knocked off stage, you aren't supposed to be in a neutral position, you're supposed to be in a BAD position. This isn't vbrawl; you are on the defense when you're off stage. It's your fault for being out there; and depending on what character you chose, you have different levels of risks and a varying number of tools. It just so happens ness doesn't have that many (Although DJ fair is supposed to be ok). The guy who gets you off the stage isn't supposed to really worry about risk (especially if he's a good player), YOU'RE supposed to worry about it, because YOU'RE out there. Your only tool against someone who wants to keep you off the stage are your mind games and this is because recovery is supposed to limited.

In general, the recovery of most characters is pretty straight forward, you are limited to one or two options, so mixing it up, fast falling before recovering, using your enormous DJ instead, etc, etc is what youre supposed to use. THIS IS BRAWL+, we want to promote THINKING. We want to promote STRATEGY. By watering down the strategies of characters, we are just dumbing down the game. And to be honest, Brawl+ lacks L canceling, wavedashing, and other technical aspects that were in melee/smash64, so we REALLY need to make up for it in the strategic part of the game.

 

[kupo15]

Was it on purpose that in the last nightly build the characters were sweetspotting the ledges again? That was annoying and shuold be fixed.
Also I had the issue that I had to wait a few seconds after each match for when we skipped the result screen quickly the game froze. (Though that could be caused by my textures.)

Someone knows about these errors?

Probably just you on both of the errors, though there are some Side Bs that sweetspot but no Up Bs sweetspot unless you hit the edgeguarder with it.

IMO, this needs to be fixed. I am really against the fact that hitting the shield or whatever during the up b causes auto sweet spotting. I know, falco400, that your reasoning (because I remember you saying it before) is going to be, "if you get hit by the move, you already failed at edge guarding so they should sweet spot" and I have to completely disagree with that statement. You are removing options and helping the person who is supposed to be at the disadvantage for no reason. Basically, with this logic, it is taboo for me to shield your poorly sweet spotted recovery and punish with a shield grab, or JC usmash, or JC aerial, or JC up b or if I have enough, shield drop jab or whatever. There is nothing wrong with offensively using your shield to edge guard and you should not be forbidden to do so.

Kupo you ******* stop teasing us with all these juicy future changes and not release a 'nightly' build for 3 days or more. I tried to go back to plussery and even the nightly doesn't have the same zazz your set does. I can only suggest one thing from plussery that we might need to jigger in your set. Falcon's sh height could use a slight fiddling so you can nair bouncing enemy's and hit short characters better.

Lol, I see you have noticed that new section I added to my post. I wanted to add more changes to it but I guess I can release it as is. I just need to test one thing then I will release it today.

And for the record, I completely agree with jiangs above post and I do not support ness' recovery buff either

 

[Master Knight DH]

Okay, so now I have read the arguments.

It was pointed out that Ness's PSI Thunder Missile can kill his opponent. However, if Ness dies first, he still gets the stock loss (which would mean if it's deciding the match, the opponent wins), and I can't imagine the opponent hitting the blast lines from the recovery gimp first unless their percentage is VERY high. Well, the whole point of PSI Thunder's buff is to make it a more plausible recovery. But the PSI Thunder itself doesn't have Ness recover. It just allows him to do so if his second jump fails. It won't stop PSI Thunder Missile from being gimped.

As for babying, I'm not sure it is. If Ness is too far away, he still won't grab the edge with the full PSI Thunder Missile and he will die. He doesn't even have the helpless maneuverability that Lucas does, you know.

 

[Uffe]

I don't see why people are complaining about Ness' new attribute in the game. It's not 100% foolproof that he'll make it back anyway. Sure, it is possible to return with this new feature from what I've seen, but really now, how is this affecting others? If anything, this is a Ness mains dream come true. Well, except for that other guy who doesn't care, but technically it is. I see no harm or no reason as to why this should be taken out.

As a few have already mentioned, Ness is easily gimped. Sure, he can return without this new ability, but most of the time, when Ness is gimped, it's either by the opponent accidentally falling on his PK Thunder, struck by some sort of projectile or some other method that gimps Ness. There are many characters who have greater recovery than Ness and nobody is saying anything about that. When Brawl announced its characters with multi-jumping and gliding, people thought, "Hey, now that's a great idea!" Some even thought it was cheap for a character to have five to six jumps, but eventually everything was looked passed as people progressed playing the game.

Again, there is no reason to get rid of an infinite PK Thunder use for Ness. It's not like he can stall with it when he hits himself in the air. I'm kind of tired seeing people think that Ness is useless or just ignoring him as if he's a horrible character. If the Brawl+ community does get rid of this, at least give Ness the ability to cancel out his PK Thunder while on the ground or falling state like Snake is able to cancel his Nikita.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Unfortuneately, Ness needs some work. I'm still not sure if the PKT buff was the right course of action though.
Why not make him a better onstage combo character. I mean, look what happened to Ivysaur and Lucas. Why are we leaving Ness out?

On a side note, why is it that Ness's PKT2 distance is dramatically shortened when he hits an enemy/projectile? Shouldn't this be fixed first before we give him multiple aerial PKTs?

Just my thoughts. I'll be getting Brawl+ as soon as the ability to run the Hombrew Channel from an SD card (on 4.0 menu) arrives. Still, great work to all involved. Low tier mains everywhere thank you.

Edit: Hey Uffe!

 

[goodoldganon]

IMO, this needs to be fixed. I am really against the fact that hitting the shield or whatever during the up b causes auto sweet spotting. I know, falco400, that your reasoning (because I remember you saying it before) is going to be, "if you get hit by the move, you already failed at edge guarding so they should sweet spot" and I have to completely disagree with that statement.

I'm pretty sure you were thinking of me. I think it's fine but if it's removed I won't whine. It's a nifty little side effect. That being said, now that we seem to just be buffing every recovery I think it's time it goes. Recoveries are becoming too easy now and putting the edgeguarder at another disadvantage is bad.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I honestly don't think ness' upB is that bad of a change; but I certainly do not think it's necessary. I do believe it's one of those changes that waters down the game; we could do so much more with the character if he's really lacking in whatever areas. Wouldn't you rather have ness have a more effective on-stage game than just live longer?


On a side note: I'm not quite sure how to word this exactly, but basically I believe that we are at a point where the game is becoming too easy. Technically, Brawl+ isn't even out yet, and we have people proposing gameplay changing buffs to characters without us really knowing a character inside and out. I think for characters that have been studied to the tooth because of their similarities to their melee incarnation (mario, sheik, etc) , or characters that are quite clearly at a disadvantage (bowser, link), or characters that are just OP out of their **** mind (MK), I think buffs/nerfs can be given accordingly, but the BRawl+ community is small, and we don't get as much feed back from skillful players that we'd like to, so more often than not we get "advice" from people who may/may not have the credentials to be listing off buffs that their character needs. we have to remember that this is a new game with new physics new hitboxes new hidden ATs new everything so it's really really hard to know who is at a disadvantage and so forth.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Unfortuneately, Ness needs some work. I'm still not sure if the PKT buff was the right course of action though.
Why not make him a better onstage combo character. I mean, look what happened to Ivysaur and Lucas. Why are we leaving Ness out?

I honestly don't think ness' upB is that bad of a change; but I certainly do not think it's necessary. I do believe it's one of those changes that waters down the game; we could do so much more with the character if he's really lacking in whatever areas. Wouldn't you rather have ness have a more effective on-stage game than just live longer?

That's what I said ^^

 

[CometStar]

Ness players definitely need this "minor change." It has been a major weakness since the early games. I've played in tournaments and can tell you that no matter how much one tries to limit this weakness a skilled opponent will still inevitably be gimp the Ness player, the same can't be said for many other characters in the game. It doesn't help when projectiles cancel out the recovery either, an incident that normally affords other characters another chance at recovering. This is all I will say on the matter.

 

[toasty]

Gooood **** Uffe, and no, not just because you agree with me.

A better onstage game...hmmm...it's tough...because it could change the flow of the character's style. I mean obviously I'm down for it Maybe give him better range or priority, but I'd have to experiment more with Ness in B+ before I can really give recommendations for other buffs/nerfs

 

[kupo15]

I'm pretty sure you were thinking of me. I think it's fine but if it's removed I won't whine. It's a nifty little side effect. That being said, now that we seem to just be buffing every recovery I think it's time it goes. Recoveries are becoming too easy now and putting the edgeguarder at another disadvantage is bad.

Maybe. I'm pretty sure I thought that falco also said it as well. But I used to think the attack part was a nifty side effect but I don't think so anymore. I even don't like the side b sweetspotting either. Not only because not everyone has a side b sweet spot, but sweet spotting the ledge is a skill and something I don't think should be automatic especially, like you said, since we are buffing recoveries

 

[Master Knight DH]

A better onstage game...hmmm...it's tough...because it could change the flow of the character's style. I mean obviously I'm down for it Maybe give him better range or priority, but I'd have to experiment more with Ness in B+ before I can really give recommendations for other buffs/nerfs

Well as long as we're careful. If Ness's on-balance game gets too strong to counterbalance that his PSI Thunder can still be shut down by something like G&W's bucket.....well, at least what happens with Brawl+ doesn't affect me ATM at least.

 

[SketchHurricane]

So why not keep jiggs brawl rest? It was unique, even though it was terrible. Why not change link to be a viable character? His moveset sucked, but the badness of it made it unique.

See the problem here?

I see the problem with your thinking, which is a total assumption at what I was getting at. I'm not equating terrible to unique, which is what you're doing above. I'm simply pointing out unique, where it just happens to apply to a weakness in this particular case.

The moral of my story is that you should not go buffing every characters weakness for the sake of it being a weakness. All character should have them. You take away their weaknesses and you are essentially watering them down towards "jack of all trades" status, which is NOT the goal of B+. There are other ways to buff a character. I've been saying this ever since the B+ effort got started.

edit: And for the record, I'm not strictly opposed to the buff. In my original post, I simply pointed out that we could focus on correcting the "********" aspects of the gimp rather than the gimp as a whole. It's not some critical change that's going to make or break the Ness metagame, as you others seem to suggest.

I honestly don't think ness' upB is that bad of a change; but I certainly do not think it's necessary. I do believe it's one of those changes that waters down the game; we could do so much more with the character if he's really lacking in whatever areas. Wouldn't you rather have ness have a more effective on-stage game than just live longer?

This is exactly my point, and others have said it as well.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I have to agree with the PRO Buff Ness side of the argument. Him and Ivy are kind of infamous in the Brawl community for having some of the worst recoveries in the game. Ness's is so easy to gimp I sometimes scratch my head wondering what Nintendo was thinking. It's completely crippling to his validity as a fighter in a tournament scene. I'm willing to accept that fact in VBrawl, but this is Brawl+. No more cheap, half-***** **** like that. It's far too easy to completely ruin Ness after he's off the stage, not because of skill, but because Nintendo didn't address a critical flaw in his recovery.

Same goes for Ivy as well, though I am not opposed to a longer cooldown between UpBs. It just makes me cringe to see Ivy's tiny little UpB miss and watch him fall to his doom. It doesn't look right, and onstage it's a nice buff to his offense I think he could use.

 

[kupo15]

Alright. My code set is updated for testing out.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I have to agree with the PRO Buff Ness side of the argument. Him and Ivy are kind of infamous in the Brawl community for having some of the worst recoveries in the game. Ness's is so easy to gimp I sometimes scratch my head wondering what Nintendo was thinking. It's completely crippling to his validity as a fighter in a tournament scene. I'm willing to accept that fact in VBrawl, but this is Brawl+. No more cheap, half-***** **** like that. It's far too easy to completely ruin Ness after he's off the stage, not because of skill, but because Nintendo didn't address a critical flaw in his recovery.

Same goes for Ivy as well, though I am not opposed to a longer cooldown between UpBs. It just makes me cringe to see Ivy's tiny little UpB miss and watch him fall to his doom. It doesn't look right, and onstage it's a nice buff to his offense I think he could use.

Indeed. Olimar at least would be easier to balance if his Pikmin's maturity stages actually did something, so that his on-balance game would be variable enough from the Pikmin's maturity stages that we could afford him to have a potentially powerful on-balance game to the point of making it hard (but not anywhere near impossible, ideally) to forcing him to recover. But Ness and Ivy don't get to work with that. (Although if PT got revamped in the next official SSB, I believe Ivy at least would with something similar.)

 

[Plum]

I don't think buffing recovery is the answer to a character's problems.

Look at Olimar for example. He has a bad recovery (Not Ivy bad, but bad) yet he doesn't need any change to his recovery because his onstage game can be so overwhelming that it balances out his offstage issues.

Helping recoveries is making the game "too easy." The game should hold the player's hand when the issue is avoidable if you smartly recover.
So maybe Ness can be gimped by random things like a Shy Guy or the stage flipping; that is something we call a character weakness. Having one of the worse recoveries in the game never stopped him in previous Smash games, and in all reality he is still easy to gimp. The multiple Up B thing isn't solving his real issues which are more on stage issues.

Would you rather have a Ness with this Up B "fix" or a Ness with an improved combo game and better kill options?

The Ivy thing is also pretty unnecessary the more I think about it, because it is again helping players who don't feel like learning how to properly handle his recovery. Ivy players should have to learn how to Dair stall to run out the opponents invincibility frames, Razor Leaf the ledge free and then snap to it. That is properly dealing with a character weakness. Not just throw out Up B's until they finally grab the ledge.

Brawl+ should be putting the skill gap back in the game right? So a player who is clearly better should be able to easily gimp Ness or Ivy. I'm sure we all hated seeing a clearly less skilled MK beat somebody they should NOT be able to beat in vBrawl. Why should a player who doesn't know how to properly deal with their weaknesses be helped? It is there fault after all for being put into that situation and not handling it correctly. Let's reward the player who put them in that position with an easy kill.

 

[toasty]

gah I've said before, it's not some gamebreaking amazing thing for Ness that will make him a great character. He obviously still has weaknesses that need to be addressed but can't until people with skill put the time and effort into using him in a competitive atmosphere in Brawl+. The point was that you should leave the multiple upB thing in. If it ISN'T such a huge help to him, then how is it holding the hand of the lesser Smasher? It's not. You're looking at it too broadly. It's a very specific problem that makes surviving with Ness just a little easier and makes people earn their gimps. It's just one aspect that Ness players are very happy about and it sucks that people are being negative about it and want it out. It doesn't baby people at all.

Again, I'm iterating what YOU all have said: it isn't that huge of an improvement for his recovery as he is still relatively easy to edgeguard/gimp...so...HOW is that babying bad players?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I don't think buffing recovery is the answer to a character's problems.

Look at Olimar for example. He has a bad recovery (Not Ivy bad, but bad) yet he doesn't need any change to his recovery because his onstage game can be so overwhelming that it balances out his offstage issues.

Helping recoveries is making the game "too easy." The game should hold the player's hand when the issue is avoidable if you smartly recover.
So maybe Ness can be gimped by random things like a Shy Guy or the stage flipping; that is something we call a character weakness. Having one of the worse recoveries in the game never stopped him in previous Smash games, and in all reality he is still easy to gimp. The multiple Up B thing isn't solving his real issues which are more on stage issues.

Would you rather have a Ness with this Up B "fix" or a Ness with an improved combo game and better kill options?

The Ivy thing is also pretty unnecessary the more I think about it, because it is again helping players who don't feel like learning how to properly handle his recovery. Ivy players should have to learn how to Dair stall to run out the opponents invincibility frames, Razor Leaf the ledge free and then snap to it. That is properly dealing with a character weakness. Not just throw out Up B's until they finally grab the ledge.

Brawl+ should be putting the skill gap back in the game right? So a player who is clearly better should be able to easily gimp Ness or Ivy. I'm sure we all hated seeing a clearly less skilled MK beat somebody they should NOT be able to beat in vBrawl. Why should a player who doesn't know how to properly deal with their weaknesses be helped? It is there fault after all for being put into that situation and not handling it correctly. Let's reward the player who put them in that position with an easy kill.

exactly. you worded it better than i did. brawl+ has no tech skill, so what will seperate good players from bad players? thoughtful playing and overcoming weaknesses effectively.

 

[The Cape]

With the Ivy recovery we are working on giving her the Olimar hop and removing the multi tethers as that is the better option overall.

The ness PKT2 is a great addition I think because it allows Ness to have more options. His recovery is still stupid easy to gimp, but this allows Ness a few more options. As for his on stage game, we have buffed that up some, but we had run out of space on the frame speed modifier initially. The backroom as a whole (we have about three people who play a decent Ness, myself included) feel that he is a really solid character as he is now, but we do also have an idea or two to take a look into. Anything that you might suggest to us?

 

[toasty]

I won't have a chance to play B+ for almost a week...I'll get back to you on my thoughts once..uh...I have them >_>

 

[Revven]

IMO, this needs to be fixed. I am really against the fact that hitting the shield or whatever during the up b causes auto sweet spotting. I know, falco400, that your reasoning (because I remember you saying it before) is going to be, "if you get hit by the move, you already failed at edge guarding so they should sweet spot" and I have to completely disagree with that statement. You are removing options and helping the person who is supposed to be at the disadvantage for no reason. Basically, with this logic, it is taboo for me to shield your poorly sweet spotted recovery and punish with a shield grab, or JC usmash, or JC aerial, or JC up b or if I have enough, shield drop jab or whatever. There is nothing wrong with offensively using your shield to edge guard and you should not be forbidden to do so.

You've got the wrong guy, sorry, I never talked about the ledge mechanics ever except at one point agreeing about the ledge distance needing to be toned down SLIGHTLY (not in an incredible amount).

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I'm gonna have to support the Ness upB buff. He isn't amazing on stage like a certain other character with bad recovery... Ivysaur... seriously, is there really a good reason his up air is that strong? and his >B is so fast he's easily one of the best spammers in the game. never has to approach...

 

[zephyrnereus]

I support the up-b buff on Ness as well. its not really necessary, but it gives more options to the player.

Im gonna have to say that Ivy is getting too many buffs. she's a great character now, so why give her more? the up-b is too much...maybe it might be better if the jump of it was a tiny bit higher and it would be DI-able. she still needs a weakness since she ***** on the stage. also the side-b is too much. its falco's laser annoying, but faster and no electric stun.

 

[Uffe]

@ I_Am_Plum: You bring up how it's the persons fault for being in a situation and not handling their weaknesses correctly in the sense of recovering. So how does this work for something like ShyGuys, the Ghost Platform and balloon? Surely that's not the persons fault when something like that happens because those things are unpredictable. Also, stalling isn't that effective. I know how to recover correctly, but it's not always going to save me.

Again, this infinite PK Thunder use is not 100% foolproof. He'll stand a better chance than he did in previous games, but slightly. So again, this shouldn't really affect anybody else other than the person using Ness. Also, why should recovering require much skill? You use your second jump and then your Up B. Not much skill going on there and still possible to gimp. If you guys are about switching out certain things like better recover > decent combo or kill moves or vise versa, I sure hope you're doing that for someone like Sonic.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I think this idea that buffing Ness's recovery is "catering" to unskilled players is garbage. How much skill does it take to hurl your body into his PKT? Not much. So much for risk=reward. Even Olimar is harder to gimp than that.

Ness's recovery, even WITH the buffs, is still VERY limited. All this buff does is take the edge off his flawed recovery. He still hangs in the air like a target, is still easier to beat away from the stage than most other characters, and the player still has to AIM the PKT to hit him in the right direction. I think some of us are forgetting Ness's recovery still has an absurd learning curve compared to the other characters. Even if he has an infinite amount of PKT1, aim just a little off and he bounces his skull right off the side of the stage to his doom anyways.

 

[Shadic]

What people fail to realize is that Ness's UpB buff isn't fool proof, and the same strategies for gimping him still apply.

"Oh Shadic, what should I do after I disrupt his PK Thunder, then?" You may ask.

Simple, disrupt it a second time. I doubt he'll recover from it that time.

 

[Arw1ng]

I'm a n00b, is this set Online friendly? ^^;

 

[Shadic]

Set your handicaps to the same thing, and it will be.

 

[Uffe]

I think some of us are forgetting Ness's recovery still has an absurd learning curve compared to the other characters. Even if he has an infinite amount of PKT1, aim just a little off and he bounces his skull right off the side of the stage to his doom anyways.

See? Ness' range is also in danger as well.

What people fail to realize is that Ness's UpB buff isn't fool proof, and the same strategies for gimping him still apply.

"Oh Shadic, what should I do after I disrupt his PK Thunder, then?" You may ask.

Simple, disrupt it a second time. I doubt he'll recover from it that time.

In a way you're correct. The video that was uploaded on YouTube shows that Wario keeps landing into Ness' PK Thunder, though Ness still makes it back and Wario dies, Ness' PKT2 range is now threatened. So again, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to have this infinite PK Thunder. He can't stall in the air with it and it's not really affecting other players. He's still gimpable.

While I'm still for this, I still think Ness should get his buff on stage as well. Because his recovery isn't any better, it just gives him a slight chance.

 

[The Cape]

I support the up-b buff on Ness as well. its not really necessary, but it gives more options to the player.

Im gonna have to say that Ivy is getting too many buffs. she's a great character now, so why give her more? the up-b is too much...maybe it might be better if the jump of it was a tiny bit higher and it would be DI-able. she still needs a weakness since she ***** on the stage. also the side-b is too much. its falco's laser annoying, but faster and no electric stun.

Ness is still easy to gimp. Just keep hitting the upb til he cant recover back, or get in his path of his upB to slow it down, or reflect the PKT1 in a bad direction and mess up his timing.

Ivy plays well as a solid character, but still has the game's worst recovery. The multi upBs is stupid, even though its still really easy to edgeguard Ivy. We plan to try to give her the Olimar type of hop and remove multi upBs. That should work well. Also, her side B is attackable people. use a good solid move that stays out (most nairs) and just approach through them, its really simple to do and puts Ivy more on the defensive. Also, with good DI she is lucky to hit you with more than one uair per combo.