Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Alphatron]

Magnet doesn't gimp nearly as well as it did in 5.0. Even against spacies thanks to snap distance. Although it is cool to tank Wolf's ******* SideB and then have the magnet toss him off stage. Even so, magnet is better than vbrawl magnet. While it does not absorb projectiles during the SA frames, it still comes out a few frames faster than vbrawl magnet anyway. When being edge guarded, this thing has saved me several times, since my opponent can no longer edge guard me after the magnet pushes them away. I'd probably see it gimp more if I actually played people who used characters with lousy recovery.

My main gripe with it, aside from accidentally tanking projectiles instead of absorbing them, is that the refreshable super armor it had is apparently gone. It does not seem to work at all on any multi hit attack.

I'm used to using it to escape from combos since Ness' nuetral air likes to trade hits with a lot of crap. Something he shouldn't be doing too often.

In any case, I've had more luck with this move than with PK Fire, which is a shattered shell of anything remotely useful. It does about 8%-10% dmg since its so easy to escape from for just about any character, provides no followups when this happens either. It's like a worse version of Wolf's blaster. All I use it for is for stopping some ground approaches.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, keep this in mind.

PK fire is a projectile. Projectiles aren't really meant to be combo starters, and it still does a lot of damage for a projectile anyway. Projectiles are meant to control space.

If you can come up with a reasonable argument as to why PK Fire should lead into combos, and grabs(which leads to death at high percents) please tell me.

 

[Alphatron]

I'm not asking for any Pk Fire buffs, as Ness doesn't really need it. Pk Fire never lead into anything at high percent since it had too much knockback and I was cool with that. I'm okay with it not leading into grabs anymore either(even with your opponent not DI'ing out ot it) To be honest, I was going a bit hard on the move since it still has uses and was never very stellar to begin with.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I actually think PK Fire is a decent move. While it may not trap consistently, combined with a pivot, or Ness' short stop animation, it can be fairly useful.

One thing some forget is that your opponent must DI away from you to avoid massive damage if they're hit by PK Fire. This can often set them up for rolling quite predictably into one of those DJC Uairs I love so much.

Aerial PK Fire is also not a bad option for harassing low recoveries and the bigger guys.


Not the best move in the game of course...but not really all that bad either.

 

[[TSON]]

Well, keep this in mind.

PK fire is a projectile. Projectiles aren't really meant to be combo starters, and it still does a lot of damage for a projectile anyway. Projectiles are meant to control space.

If you can come up with a reasonable argument as to why PK Fire should lead into combos, and grabs(which leads to death at high percents) please tell me.

Because it did in 64, Melee, and Brawl.

WHAM BAM

 

[CountKaiser]

That really isn't a good reason.

Ness was different in Melee, 64, and brawl than he is here. He's much better in brawl+ than he's ever been.

Does Ness+ need a projectile that is a combo starter? I really don't think so. If you wish to argue otherwise, take it to PMs please, so that this thread won't get cluttered.

 

[PKNintendo]

Nope, and I thought this wasn't the place to discuss anymore of that stuff.

But to be completely honest... I forgot what the differences between vBrawl's PKF and B+ PKF. Is it worse?

And Tatsuman is sooooo right. Ness got off easy. We've basically got a kickass character on our hands here. As for PSI magnet being nerfed? Meh it's way better than nothing, and infinite PKT isn't even THAT good.

 

[_clinton]

Meh it's way better than nothing, and infinite PKT isn't even THAT good.

I disagree about having a move that potentially set up kills at 80% or so because you could use your 2nd jump in the air to chase them after smacking them right.

 

[CanadaKid91]

And Tatsuman is sooooo right. Ness got off easy. We've basically got a kickass character on our hands here.

Okay now you're just plain overrating him.

Ness does have some good combos and decent KO moves but he still has a bad recovery and poor range. He's also got a ton of borderline useless moves, (such as dtilt, ftilt, PK Fire, PSI Magnet, upsmash, downsmash - heck even dthrow is nothing special) which really homogenizes his game.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but downsmash yo-yo doesn't seem to reliably edgeguard and upthrow doesn't set up for headbutt combos. Also, it feels like bthrow is Ness' best KO move - I think bair would have been a better choice....

Don't get me wrong, I think Ness is a decent character. I just see him struggling to rise above the bottom half of the cast.

 

[thesage]

LOOOOOOL at the person saying pk fire as a combo starter in 64, melee, or brawl.

there's pk fire to dair in 64 and brawl. That's all that should work against anybody who knows how to hold down the shield button and roll (or di).

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay now you're just plain overrating him.

Ness does have some good combos and decent KO moves but he still has a bad recovery and poor range. He's also got a ton of borderline useless moves, (such as dtilt, ftilt, PK Fire, PSI Magnet, upsmash, downsmash - heck even dthrow is nothing special) which really homogenizes his game.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but downsmash yo-yo doesn't seem to reliably edgeguard and upthrow doesn't set up for headbutt combos. Also, it feels like bthrow is Ness' best KO move - I think bair would have been a better choice....

Don't get me wrong, I think Ness is a decent character. I just see him struggling to rise above the bottom half of the cast.

I'm not sure how you can say Ness has poor range when he has fair and zapjumping. Also, dthrow can lead to some awesome techchases. You just need to figure out what to techchase with.

His ground game has historically been awful, so obviously his ground moves are going to be subpar. PK fire, though, is good for throwing people off. PSI Magnet isn't completely useless, but it is hard to find uses for it.

Ness is a good character, and chances are he's somewhere on the lower end of high tier. But don't expect him to be making waves from being ridiculous.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Referring to a tierlist has little significance here. We have no idea how many tiers will exist or how big they will be yet, so anything you say about them is pure speculation.

Why don't we talk about matchups instead?

 

[CountKaiser]

Sounds good.

Who do we discuss first?

 

[PKNintendo]

Wario. Let's head on over to their topic and talk tactics.

 

[[TSON]]

LOOOOOOL at the person saying pk fire as a combo starter in 64, melee, or brawl.

there's pk fire to dair in 64 and brawl. That's all that should work against anybody who knows how to hold down the shield button and roll (or di).

Lol. I'm not gonna argue with you because honestly I haven't played vbrawl in like 9 months but i do remember it having more uses than it does now combowise

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol. I'm not gonna argue with you because honestly I haven't played vbrawl in like 9 months but i do remember it having more uses than it does now combowise

Yeah, PK Fire seems a lot worse. If this was a nerf to balance Ness, fair enough but it's significantly (and possibly unintentional) otherwise now.

I know we can't talk about buffs/nerfs but it's significant enough to mention.

 

[thesage]

Pk fire could be di'd out in brawl by the intial it, leading the person to not get hit by the pillar at all.

Also Marth could counter while in it.

In 64 it didn't work at all.

In melee it was possible to shield and roll out or cc it. It did **** nana though...

 

[PKNintendo]

Oh so it was actually buffed? Excellent.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

B+ PKF can still be SDI'd on the initial hit, leading to 8% and no followup. At least for the smaller characters (Another Ness, for example). However, it ***** the bigger characters offstage, and aerial PK Fire may actually be a bit better than I gave it credit for.

What I am pleased with, however is the dead frame removal. Either there's a massive placebo effect going on, or I hit that particular frame far too often in my attempts to DJC.

So now we have a Ness that can dish out around 50% with DJC uairs regularly, kills sooner, and a PK Fire that makes DK cry.

Gentlemen...I am happy.

 

[Veril]

Ness really was not changed a lot from 6.0, since, whining aside, he is very well balanced.

*Fsmash: 361° -> 35°
*PKT2(Both hitboxes): 361° -> 40°
*DJCH Glitch removed

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I agree.

I assume the 361° angles on the Fsmash and PKT2 were Sakruai Angles?

 

[CountKaiser]

Yes.

With the boundary changes, PK fire off the edge to a bat is now better than ever. Dair to uair kills so much earlier, and it's all around much, much simpler for Ness to kill now.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness really was not changed a lot from 6.0, since, whining aside, he is very well balanced.

*Fsmash: 361° -> 35°
*PKT2(Both hitboxes): 361° -> 40°
*DJCH Glitch removed

Thanks a lot for te heads up. I can't WAIT to try out Ness in v7.

(lucky number lol)

We have an awesome character folks.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Eat it Ness Main Haters.

Anyways, Ness although not changed much, is still awesome like he already was.

 

[Space Jam]

I hate everything about Ness 8(
Buuuut since the person that I play against is probably too lazy to post in here, take a look at our matches and tell us what we're doing wrong. (Mainly him since this is a Ness thread after all)

http://www.youtube.com/user/Keisterz?feature=mhw4

 

[CountKaiser]

Why do you hate Ness? D:

As for tips? I'm not so good with critique, but here goes.

From what I saw, there isn't much for me to complain about. His approaching seemed good, and he doesn't need help comboing, though I don't recall seeing much onstage dair usage.

As for recovery, the only thing of incident I noticed was when Scufo got falcon Punched after not sweetspotting the edge, and missing himself when trying to PKT2 downwards on PS.

All I can say is use more FF fair from a fullhop, as that can be a good walling tactic. OoS nair is good for punishing, as nair has okay range and comes out very quickly, and that's all I can contribute.

Like I said, I'm bad at this sort of thing. Anyone else have anything to say?

 

[Mattnumbers]

He's asking for help from CFs perspective CK

Personally I think one reason is just that that's a poor matchup for CF, try out some of your secondaries.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If CF gets hit with a uair, grab, utilt, dair, or usmash, he eats around 60% or death. Unluckily for him, none of these moves are exceptionally hard to hit.

Ness' DJC aerials are nasty, especially fair and uair. Fair leads into an almost guaranteed grab, and uair combos into itself well past 50% on CF.


The best advice I can give is don't mess up your spacing. Stay up his nose or outside of his SH fair's range. Falcon is much faster than Ness, and he can't be effectively camped in this matchup.


I'd also recommend working on the timing of your SHFF aerials. Both your characters have amazing SHFF options, but you seem to be either fast falling too soon, or too late.

 

[Space Jam]

He's asking for help from CFs perspective CK

Personally I think one reason is just that that's a poor matchup for CF, try out some of your secondaries.

Asking for both really

I realized after about the 50th match that the MU was in favor of Ness, but I still tried to fight it to better my falcon.

Thanks for the input everyone :D

Why do you hate Ness? D:

Basically in my mind Ness has lots of broken things. His wall o' bair spam makes me unbelievably angry. If you try to approach it and you do it wrong you either end up getting hit with a 15% dmg sweetspot and if you are high dmg you fly off and die, or you get hit with 5% dmg and then who knows what happens to you after that.

PKF is a ***** even with smash DI. Not only the physical parts of it, but the mindgames it creates in and of itself.

I feel like the hitboxes for Ness are strange. His bair, uair, and dair all seem to hit in strange places. His utilt is still something I don't understand.

I don't like the launch angle of Ness's dash attack. If you get hit with it, it throws you up into the air into basically any aerial you want.

Above all the thing I hate the most is Fair. It basically combos into itself and does stupid massive dmg. It has basically every property in this game. It has a spike frame, multiple hits, does pretty decent damage, you can use it as a pushing attack if someone is near the edge of the stage and they shield it they will automatically get pulled into it.

Adding on to the gayness that is Ness's Fair. It can also be used to make a basically nonpunishable recovery to stage. Especially if the Ness is already grabbing on ledge.
I'm of course talking about an Fair ZapJump. It'd be one thing if it was hard to do, but it's not.

And lastly it seems like Ness doesn't have any lag between any of his attacks. (There are obviously a few that have landing lag and such on them, but those moves are mostly kill moves.) If I manage to spot dodge a dash attack, fair, or bair, he can instantly either shield or spot dodge himself.


EDIT: Also Scufo and I just played in a tournament on Saturday. We went to championship and every time he picked Ness, I picked MK. MK is pretty ridiculous vs Ness. Gimps Ness so god **** hard.

 

[CountKaiser]

Fair does 11 damage. That isn't massive.

If fair's damage is massive and comboes into itself, you're going to abhor G&W's nair. Does 17 damage can can combo into itself 2 or 3 times.

As for Ness, he doesn't have much range with the exception of fair, dash attack, and his smashes. People who can outrange him outright, such as G&W and Marth, can give Ness a hard time. Anyone who can gimp people well, such as shiek and peach, can give Ness a hard time too.

He's great, but he isn't broken.

 

[Space Jam]

Fair does 11 damage. That isn't massive.

If fair's damage is massive and comboes into itself, you're going to abhor G&W's nair. Does 17 damage can can combo into itself 2 or 3 times.

As for Ness, he doesn't have much range with the exception of fair, dash attack, and his smashes. People who can outrange him outright, such as G&W and Marth, can give Ness a hard time. Anyone who can gimp people well, such as shiek and peach, can give Ness a hard time too.

He's great, but he isn't broken.

Well his fair tends to combo into many other things so basically once you hit with it, it's an auto 20 dmg.

I wouldn't say he's broken, just that he doesn't really have a neutral matchup. From what I've seen it seems that its one way or the other. IE Marth/Shiek/MK vs Ness = loss for Ness. Falcon/Bowser/Ganondorf/DK vs Ness = win for Ness.

I guess id say he's sort of broken in about half his matchups.

 

[CountKaiser]

That isn't anything new. Once again, G&W is a more popular example of polarized matchups.

And Ness does have even matchups. See Ness vs. Wario

 

[Space Jam]

I guess that's true.

It just seems like every time I play against a Ness something feels off.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Wow someone complained about Ness being broken? I guess it's time for me to step up my game.
btw is the OP ever going to get updated? I don't think sage posts anymore so we might need a new thread... any takers?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness' range is pretty amazing, the thing that stops it from being overpowering is that the massive range hitboxes are either incredibly weak (sourspot bair), take a bit of time to come out (sourspot dair), or lose most of their range in approaching (fair).

Ness' range and priority are **** good, but they do have holes. You just have to find them, and learn to exploit them.

Bair isn't really an effective walling aerial in my opinion. Just full hop instead of short hop and fastfall dair him as Falcon. He'll either be on the ground recovering from lag (combos for Falcon), in the air still (tech chase), or shielding (assuming you spaced and crossed up Ness' Shield, the most you'll eat is an nair).

Dash attack doesn't always combo into the launching hit too well. Try DIing the first two hits up and the last one away. Though if the last one hits on Falcon, you're going to eat a good amount of damage anyway.

PK Fire will destroy Falcon offstage at times, but onstage, simply quarter circle DI down and away from the pillar. You'll eat 8%, and be out of stun before Ness is out of lag.

Fair will combo into itself pretty well, and by all accounts, it is an amazing aerial. One of the best, I think. However, zap jumping to recover is pretty far from nonpunishable. As I've said before, the range of Ness' fair decreases when Ness moves forward, and Ness moves pretty quickly forward during a zap jump. Most decently ranged aerials will knock him out of it. Try getting under him and hitting him with a uair or outspace him with an nair. If you hit him out of it, you usually have him in a very bad position, as Ness offstage without a double jump is a cruel joke.

 

[Space Jam]

All good advice.

When I say walling Bair I mean you can full hop it throw one out then DJC when throwing the second one and repeat. Causing a very fast wall to be thrown up. If you try to approach it, it's almost a 50/50 chance of getting hit with something because Ness's hitboxes are so strange.

Also, when I said zap jumping to recover I meant when a Ness is edge grabbing slowfalls off the ledge then zap jumps back ot stage you basically just have to run away otherwise you'll get hit by fair or shield the fair and then get grabbed haha.

 

[CountKaiser]

Ness' range is pretty amazing, the thing that stops it from being overpowering is that the massive range hitboxes are either incredibly weak (sourspot bair), take a bit of time to come out (sourspot dair), or lose most of their range in approaching (fair).

Ness' range and priority are **** good, but they do have holes. You just have to find them, and learn to exploit them.

Bair isn't really an effective walling aerial in my opinion. Just full hop instead of short hop and fastfall dair him as Falcon. He'll either be on the ground recovering from lag (combos for Falcon), in the air still (tech chase), or shielding (assuming you spaced and crossed up Ness' Shield, the most you'll eat is an nair).

Dash attack doesn't always combo into the launching hit too well. Try DIing the first two hits up and the last one away. Though if the last one hits on Falcon, you're going to eat a good amount of damage anyway.

PK Fire will destroy Falcon offstage at times, but onstage, simply quarter circle DI down and away from the pillar. You'll eat 8%, and be out of stun before Ness is out of lag.

Fair will combo into itself pretty well, and by all accounts, it is an amazing aerial. One of the best, I think. However, zap jumping to recover is pretty far from nonpunishable. As I've said before, the range of Ness' fair decreases when Ness moves forward, and Ness moves pretty quickly forward during a zap jump. Most decently ranged aerials will knock him out of it. Try getting under him and hitting him with a uair or outspace him with an nair. If you hit him out of it, you usually have him in a very bad position, as Ness offstage without a double jump is a cruel joke.

Concerning approaching and retreating fair.

I've looked at the hitbubbles for vBrawl Ness. I don't believe the range on the fair increases or decreases. It's just a big circle in front of Ness's hands, and it stays there for about 15 frames. It moves with Ness as with any other hitbox, and I think the reason why people think the range decreases is due to the graphic for fair not moving with Ness frame by frame, but rather on every third frame.

As for Zapjumping from the edge. The fair is a circle in front of Ness. If you can see the zapjump coming, predict it and dair.

 

[Alphatron]

I'll have to put down Ness until the DJC alternate fix comes out. The frame delay screws with me way too much.

Also, does anyone find PK Thunder stalling useful? I have for when my opponent is a bit too close to edge. Although letting go of the ledge and zapjumping with fair always seems to be the superior option.

 

[Veril]

You guys don't appear to know what zapjumping is...

DJ rising fair ≠ zapjumping

Zapjumping = pkf 1 frame after the first frame of a double jump. Some other moves besides pk-fire can induce similar effects, but very rarely to the extent of PKF with Lucas/Ness.

 

[CanadaKid91]

You guys don't appear to know what zapjumping is...

DJ rising fair ≠ zapjumping

Zapjumping = pkf 1 frame after the first frame of a double jump. Some other moves besides pk-fire can induce similar effects, but very rarely to the extent of PKF with Lucas/Ness.

Correct, but iirc Ness was given a slight horizontal recovery boost with a properly timed DJ + fair. I really don't remember when this change was made though..... The point is that this is AT they were referring to.

From vBrawl, Lucas's PK Fire + double jump was called zapjumping (provides a huge vertical boost).
Ness's PK Fire + double jump was called PK Jumping (provides a horizontal boost).

Confusing names....