Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Simna ibn Sind]

delorted1: im not saying ness' stuff didnt work before...the buffs were just to give him similar abilities to the better cahracters of brawl+. I would say with the new build Ness is currently somewhere in the top 6 characters of B+, but that's only for now, a time where there are other charcters that still need to be adjusted.

Matt2358: because you have to comit to using pk flash as an edgeguard the opponent can see it coming very early. If they are familiar with how big it is they can avoid it accordingly doing things such as recovering higher than it can hit(many characters can do this) or slowing/halting their recoveries(samus bombs, C4, etc.). It kills pretty early and its big, but its also restricting.

I actually like throwing out uncharged pk flashes as part of an edgeguard mixup game sometimes.

EDIT: oh and i might be different in some way or another, but I don't agree with the "trade-off" mentality. If a character needs buffs then give them buffs and if they needs nerfs give them nerfs.....we dont need some form of equal exchange

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well really simna, I just thought that those buffs were ones I would rather have seen in the form of the suggestions I posted. I don't actually have a problem with PK Flash I would just rather have an ok PK flash edgeguard plus a Yoyo edgeguard instead of just a great PK Flash edgeguard.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wait, you want to nerf the new PK flash?

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3152294

Also, If the opponent is hit at the edges of the PK flash, the knockback is much weaker. I couldn't kill at around 60% on FD. (Diddy)

PS: I wasn't yelling at you. XD.
I also dislike the trade off rule.

 

[thesage]

I'd first like to re-iterate to delorted that anything after d-tilt that isn't a d-tilt that was inputed between frames 5-8 is not an actual combo and since the opponent has the opportunity to shield before the d-tilt animation is over (I tested this vs. Ganon, Bowser, and Luigi). D-tilt to anything (besides the situation I have described) is situational and is not to be relied on. Also dair is a better options against most of the recoveries you listed or d-tilt would not work if they sweetspot the edge correctly.

-Second Jump frames 0 to 2, 2x; gives ness a zap jump ability for recovery
Secondly, nobody here has discussed the dj buff at all... The new double jump (fair gets more horizontal distance than pk fire I think) is really cool. This looks like it could work as an amazing poke when combined with nair or fair. Also gives you a recovery boost when used with fair (fair gives better distance than pk fire from what I've tested so far...). All I can is that this gives Ness some potential. It's kinda like the reverse of djc'ing but it still accomplished what it did (but it doesn't land bair that well, since bair doesn't really get the same distance boost). The best way to test out how fair moves send you without momentum influencing them is using the c-stick to do the aerials. I'll write up more on this later. I really like this change and I hope it stays in.

-Physics adjustments: Full Hop 1.075, FF to 1.2, Momentum increased to 110%
-Dash Attack
-all hitbox size increase(it was increased by percentages multiple times...im not sure where it ended
up, but its right)
-entire move speed increased(same as above)


-Down Air
-Small speed increase
-Forward Air
-Size of all hitboxes increased by 25%
-Angle of all hits changed to 85
-Final hit bkb set to 80, KBG to 0, DMg to 4% from 3%
-All hits KBG set to 0
-PSI Magnet
-PSI Magnet can now be roll/sidestep/jumped out of at any time as long as it is on the ground.
-PSI Magnet comes out on frame 3.
-Forward Smash
-Tipper hitbox size increased by 25%
-PK Flash
-25% faster startup
-2x faster cooldown
-50% larger
-PK Fire
-25% faster startup
-PK Thunder 1
-50% larger tail hitboxes
-slight bkb increase on head
-25% faster startup
-PK Thunder 2
-Strong primary hitbox damage increased to 31%
-Slight decrease in kbg on strong hitbox
-Weak secondary hitbox size increased by 50%
-Utilt
-Utilt is 150% faster

I'll writeup a post about the rest of these changes 2morrow...

Also for future reference, please put in the actual numbers you change a move with. It would make it much easier to tweak your changes if the need arises.

Edit: I'd like to add one quick thing though, I prefered shanus' version of the weak hits of fair but simna's strong hit is better. I think it may combo too much though...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

if i could polish it up a little more...i'd like to change the cooldown speed of utilt to make it a little slower(like by 20%) and then make the hitbox 30% larger

 

[PKNintendo]

I am a current fan of Ness fair.

It comboes well, but I don't see it being overpowering. Ness aerials still don't let him take out the titans of Brawl +. (although they make the matchup much more enjoyable)

 

[SSBFalco]

I also love Ness's new fair. I think it's perfect and shouldn't be touched anymore.

And that huge swing that Ness does when you DJ a Fair that thesage mentioned is also a nice suprise that I would love to see stay. It's really great at suprising the enemy by swinging in instantly with a Fair then rising out ot harm's way.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah, as whole, I hope Ness stays the way he is.

(no nerfs please!)

 

[Mattnumbers]

I would still like to see the Dsmash edgeguard, but I just feel that it would make him overpowered if we gave him a straight up improvement.

 

[Lil'E]

With poor DI...

Is a short hopped fair to bat almost guaranteed at any percent(well, more often at higher percents)? I've been testing it with my cousin and it seems like it. There are times when he isn't popped up high enough and is able to tech it though.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW: Ness' forward air now has 0 kbg. This means it has SET KNOCKBACK and the knockback will not change as the percent changes. Any combos done using forward air can be done at any percent. Please inform your opponents about directional influence or they can get *****.

 

[camelot]

Also, If the opponent is hit at the edges of the PK flash, the knockback is much weaker.

No, it's not. It's the same strength. There's a tiny spot (and I mean, reeeeeeaally small) on the edges, though, that give more horizontal knockback, but it's still the same in total knockback power. Try it in training mode.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ok, I gotcha.


Well enough of that, lets discuss matchup. Any ideas?

 

[PKNintendo]

I would still like to see the Dsmash edgeguard, but I just feel that it would make him overpowered if we gave him a straight up improvement.

Not really.us Dsmash edgeguard is decent at best. It would be unfair though, to keep giving Ness buffs. I would like to keep him the same.

 

[Deleted member]

D-smash is actually a sick move if you turn away from them. you can reliably use it to escape people coming to dash-attack or grab you. it sets them up beautifully.

yoyos need to be fixed to allow off-stage charging.

 

[SSBFalco]

D-smash is actually a sick move if you turn away from them. you can reliably use it to escape people coming to dash-attack or grab you. it sets them up beautifully.

yoyos need to be fixed to allow off-stage charging.

Yeah, Dsmash still has its few situational uses. I use it mostly when my back is turned to my opponent and they Fsmash me or some other laggy attack. It gives you just enough time to drop your shield and Dsmash them. I'm not sure if there's any better options, I haven't bothered to try anything else.

As for matchups, Wario gives me some trouble. I'm not sure if it's just me or if Ness has a bad matchup against him, but it's a bit of a chore to get a hit in.

 

[PKNintendo]

I totally agree. Its not really a buff.

Wario has always been a nightmare. Especially in B+.

 

[thesage]

Everytime I use d-smash the weak hit never connects with the strong hit so I get lolpunished. X_X

 

[Deleted member]

can someone tell me the difference between the previous f-air and the "new" one...they feel identical :/

 

[Revven]

The previous Fair was really easy to SDI and punish Ness for landing it I believe. The new Fair makes it so it's harder to SDI and makes the hits all connect well.

 

[thesage]

I find the new fair easier to sdi out of the weak hits but the final hit is a better combo move than the previous one...

Also are we allowed to discuss buffs/nerfs in these threads now, cuz then i'll post what I've posted elsewhere about these changes...

 

[PKNintendo]

The previous Fair was really easy to SDI and punish Ness for landing it I believe. The new Fair makes it so it's harder to SDI and makes the hits all connect well.

And we are welcome for it.

I LOVE the new fair. Alot.

Edit: IIRC we aren't sage... Maybe now I guess?
(I checked a while back)

 

[SSBFalco]

Come on guys, let's keep the activity up, now that we finally have something to talk about!

Where would you all think Ness stands now in comparison with the rest of the cast? Honestly, I would go as far as saying Ness is now in the top 10. I really think his Fair being able to combo was what brought him up so high now.

 

[Deleted member]

His. Fair. Combo'd. Before.

He. Was. Top. 10. Before.

 

[CloneHat]

Ness in the top 10? How? He seems slow, no recovery, 2/3 of smashes and tilts are lame, 2 useless B moves...

When did he get good?

 

[Deleted member]

The only tilt I don't use is f-tilt....the other 2 you can abuse...his up and down smash are slightly situational but once you figure them out they are great set ups.

He has the best spike in the game and his DPS is ********. His b-throw is nearly a guaranteed kill at 125; lower if you trick them.

 

[SSBFalco]

The only tilt I don't use is f-tilt....the other 2 you can abuse...his up and down smash are slightly situational but once you figure them out they are great set ups.

He has the best spike in the game and his DPS is ********. His b-throw is nearly a guaranteed kill at 125; lower if you trick them.

His tilts are all situational and are almost never used, let alone abused. And lol, his yo-yo's are not reliable for setting up at all. There are much better options available.

I believe the best spike in the game is highly exaggerated. Sure, it kills at the lowest percentage, but when compared to Falco's Dair, it's nothing special. His DPS is ********? Where did you get that data from? Or is this all based on your observations? You're never going to trick someone into DIng the wrong way to kill them earlier than at the % they're supposed to die at. Bthrow becomes extremely predictable at high percentages where it is usually the best option.

Also, I'm fairly certain you are the only one who claims Ness's Fair combo'd reliably before the buff. Everyone else seems to disagree. And LOL Ness top 10 before the buff?!

 

[Deleted member]

D-tilt cancels into itself. I've already posted several uses for that move - not to mention up-tilt combos nicely. F-tilt I almost never use.

His dair is the best spike..that means speed, strength, knockback. Aside from Ganon's down-b, I think. Ness can spike from like, disjointed hitboxes beside him. Falco can't. The window for spiking is way smaller too.

As for b-throw, if you do one at the edge of the stage at 125% or so, they will probably DI towards the stage. That means they will expect a f-throw but DI badly for the b-throw.

I don't care I'm the only one who knows how good f-air was, your point is moot.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness in the top 10? How? He seems slow, no recovery, 2/3 of smashes and tilts are lame, 2 useless B moves...

When did he get good?

Ness was slow before the nightly build.

His recovery is INFINITELY better now. You can't gimp him by jumping into the thunder (Sakurai should have done that earlier)

Their not lame only decent.

I assume you mean PK Flash and Psi magnet?
PK Flash is MUCH better now. It can now EDGEGUARD and has caused plenty of players trouble.
Psi Magnet is passable move.

 

[thesage]

Pk fire and thunder are the useless specials. It's really weird getting used to the new psi magnet though, especially since I used to use it only in the air before.

 

[Alphatron]

Yeah, you can't stall with PSI Magnet anymore and that's the only problem. However, even in vbrawl it was never a very stellar stall move.

 

[SSBFalco]

D-tilt cancels into itself. I've already posted several uses for that move - not to mention up-tilt combos nicely. F-tilt I almost never use.

His dair is the best spike..that means speed, strength, knockback. Aside from Ganon's down-b, I think. Ness can spike from like, disjointed hitboxes beside him. Falco can't. The window for spiking is way smaller too.

As for b-throw, if you do one at the edge of the stage at 125% or so, they will probably DI towards the stage. That means they will expect a f-throw but DI badly for the b-throw.

I don't care I'm the only one who knows how good f-air was, your point is moot.

D-tilt cancelling into itself suddenly makes it the best move ever? I agree that Utilt combos well and that Ftilt is pretty useless, but you said Ness's tilts can be abused, and I definately disagree with that.

Well that scenario is extremely situational and you should be DIng straight up to avoid that in the first place.

Ness's spike is faster than Falco and Marth's? Really? It's not even great in the damage department considering it's startup... Ganondorf's Dair outdamaged him and has faster startup. And I highly doubt the hitboxes are very disjointed, if at all. Besides, the side hitboxes don't spike. The foot does. The side sends the enemy horizontally. FYI, Ness has a small window that allows him to spike the opponent as well. It doesn't spike throughout the whole move. And Falco's spike is infinitely better because it spikes the instant the move comes out, meaning you can't react in time to avoid it, unless you predict it.

Likewise, I don't care if you're the only one who thinks Fair was good to begin with.

 

[thesage]

On the spikes, Ness is better when the opponent is at lower percents (like below 30). After around 30, ganon's dair becomes harder to mc than Ness'. Ganon's down-b is always superior to Ness' dair in terms of spiking...

 

[PKNintendo]

Eh... Sage, how is Wizard's foot superior to Ness dair of pain?

 

[thesage]

I'm not saying it's better as an actual move, but that it's stronger as a spike/meteor smash.

 

[CountKaiser]

It is?

You sure?

 

[thesage]

Somebody had a list of all the spikes in the game and ranked them by strength. Ganon's down-b was the strongest. Then it was a tie b/t Ness's and ganon's dairs (Ness' being more powerful at lower percents).

 

[goodoldganon]

Somebody had a list of all the spikes in the game and ranked them by strength. Ganon's down-b was the strongest. Then it was a tie b/t Ness's and ganon's dairs (Ness' being more powerful at lower percents).

That is correct.

Ganon's Down-b never grows though and has a small frame to be MC'd.

 

[Yingyay]

Ness being top 10? Not likely, that would mean he would share a spot in the tier list with Sheik and that aint nevah happenin >=3. I do like how he is now minus the laggy magnet. I think the added wind is good enough tho.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wah!

PK Flash is slower (why target that move)
And PKT is slow to.

Ugh, why wasn't this discussed?

But Psi magnet is decent I suppose. Yo-yo's are sexier too.