CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Any other opinions on the new ness?
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Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)
- Thread starter thesage
- Start date
Veril
Frame Savant
Yes, that works.
lol of course that's escapable. It can be DI or teched out of. There aren't really many 0-D combos that can't be teched out of. You could modify this to get rid of the parts that could be teched out of.
Ness has a lot of flashy combos though.
thesage
Smash Hero
Shiek's melee f-tilt > nearly half the cast of melee lol.
CanadaKid91
Smash Apprentice
Any recent vids of Ness?
Heard some good things about Dair and DJC and I'm curious.
Heard some good things about Dair and DJC and I'm curious.
Lucina Clash
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 162
Smith
Smash Ace
Why is this dead? D:
I think Ness has alot of potiental.
I'm thinking of starting to main but I'm unsure, and I don't know alot about him.
I think Ness has alot of potiental.
I'm thinking of starting to main but I'm unsure, and I don't know alot about him.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm thinking of petitioning in the nightly builds thread to make it so Ness's yoyos work on inclines and off the stage.
As it stands now, you can't charge them when the yoyo isn't touching ground, which is really silly.
As it stands now, you can't charge them when the yoyo isn't touching ground, which is really silly.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
How would they change that, though?
Also, has anyone else tried the Ness DJC? It's in the Roy build currently. What do y'all think?
Also, has anyone else tried the Ness DJC? It's in the Roy build currently. What do y'all think?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i'm not sure how they'd change it, but I don't think it's much of a buff. Right?
D
Deleted member
Guest
double post but i don't care. i took a replay of me ****** with ness - which includes my patented d-tilt technology. (less focused on pk fire now.) if i send it to one of you guys, could you upload it to youtube?
thesage
Smash Hero
The u-smash can be charged if you run off and slide while charging it... It was like that in melee with the u-smash and d-smash as well (some people thought it was related to the super yoyo glitch lol).
I'm planning on testing out the d-tilt stuff this weekend using the frame by frame pause thingy.
Could we start discussing uses for one of his moves? Like f-tilt?
I'm planning on testing out the d-tilt stuff this weekend using the frame by frame pause thingy.
Could we start discussing uses for one of his moves? Like f-tilt?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Don't bother testing d-tilt frame data to try and prove me wrong. The move catches people off guard very easily - it's a lot like Peach's d-smash in Melee where even though you knew it was coming it could still give you an easy 45% if you didn't DI it. I played Melee at a really high level, and trust me, pros got still got caught.
Obviously d-tilt isn't really comparable but I suggest you just try spamming it when you're close. I love to dash-attack to d-tilt spam at low %s, lawl.
Obviously d-tilt isn't really comparable but I suggest you just try spamming it when you're close. I love to dash-attack to d-tilt spam at low %s, lawl.
thesage
Smash Hero
Except d-tilt doesn't have the range, hitstun, damage, or knockback Peach's d-smash had? It does 4 damage per hit so you have to hit with it consecutively 11 times for it to do 44%. I don't see somebody unable to hit the shield button that long. I know it was possible to punish Peach's d-smash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyFHECf0dnI&feature=related), but the difference in required tech skill to do that and punish Ness' d-tilt is quite noticeable. Plus, even if you get multiple hits in, Ness doesn't have the mobility to get away before the opponent can punish him for using it.
Please upload a vid of you using d-tilt in this extent. Comparing what I consider to be one of the worst moves in vbrawl to one of the best moves in melee is quite a statement.
I could care less who you are, even Tesla had dumb ideas lol.
Please upload a vid of you using d-tilt in this extent. Comparing what I consider to be one of the worst moves in vbrawl to one of the best moves in melee is quite a statement.
I could care less who you are, even Tesla had dumb ideas lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Well getting 44% from solely d-tilt spam isn't gonna happen unless you're edgeguarding with it. But I usually spam it 4-5 times (because you can do it so quickly) then do a jab combo which usually allows a safe retreat.and some sweet damage. I also don't d-tilt spam unless I'm behind them, usually.
The only comparison I make to Peach's d-smash is because of it catching people off guard; However I wouldn't call this situational.
The only comparison I make to Peach's d-smash is because of it catching people off guard; However I wouldn't call this situational.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
So I could use ness's dtilt to rack up 16-20 damage quickly, then use a jab combo to protect myself?
Can't the opponent just DI away, then shield?
Can't the opponent just DI away, then shield?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Next time you're playing friendlies, why not just *try* it? TheorySmash sucks, we all know it 
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
I can only play wifi.
I'll still try it, though.
I'll still try it, though.
thesage
Smash Hero
d-tilt to jab can be shielded. The combo you mentioned would do like 32 damage, considering that other characters have much better and reliable combos than that and do more damage it would still be pretty useless even if that worked...
Even if it does work, it isn't anything broken and Ness has better options. It's not like Ness is fast enough on the ground to even use d-tilt as a spacing tool or approach with it. It's is fairly situational IMO...
Edit: I've tried it already... I've tried that in melee. Never tried it in 64 but I doubt it'd work since d-tilt was even worse in that game lol.
Even if it does work, it isn't anything broken and Ness has better options. It's not like Ness is fast enough on the ground to even use d-tilt as a spacing tool or approach with it. It's is fairly situational IMO...
Edit: I've tried it already... I've tried that in melee. Never tried it in 64 but I doubt it'd work since d-tilt was even worse in that game lol.
Just started playing Brawl+ a few days ago, and I've been trying out a couple of characters, and I've noticed that Ness hasn't really changed much from vBrawl compared to most of the other characters. His Fair, which used to be great in vBrawl, now sucks because of how little hitstun it gives, which wasn't so much of a problem before when hitstun didn't exist, but now that it does, it makes it a mediocre approach. It usually deals around 2-4 damage because it is easily DI'd out of, and it's only uses are probably for retreating and gimping.
Now, I love the addition of dashdancing, because it greatly helps his PK Fire game. His utilt and DSmash got tiny buffs, but other than that, his ground game remains less than stellar. I haven't seen too many people complaining about Ness in this thread, so maybe there's something I'm missing here, because Ness just doesn't seem that great when compared to Squirtle, which does pretty much everything Ness does but better, AND has a good ground game.
I would like to discuss how Ness is doing/how well he translated from vBrawl to Brawl+ compared to the rest of the cast. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.
Now, I love the addition of dashdancing, because it greatly helps his PK Fire game. His utilt and DSmash got tiny buffs, but other than that, his ground game remains less than stellar. I haven't seen too many people complaining about Ness in this thread, so maybe there's something I'm missing here, because Ness just doesn't seem that great when compared to Squirtle, which does pretty much everything Ness does but better, AND has a good ground game.
I would like to discuss how Ness is doing/how well he translated from vBrawl to Brawl+ compared to the rest of the cast. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Don't worry, Ness is being worked on. When finished, he'll be awesome. :D
Well guys, with the new Nightly Build out, Ness has recieved some much needed buffs, and I personally think he's amazing right now! I really couldn't ask for more!
We have a lot to discuss about the new Ness. So many things have changed for him, it's as if he's a completely new character.
What do you guys have to say about the new Fair? I think it's the best change they gave to Ness, it's just an amazing tool to use for spacing, and it can COMBO now! It's also a lot better at approaching.
We have a lot to discuss about the new Ness. So many things have changed for him, it's as if he's a completely new character.
What do you guys have to say about the new Fair? I think it's the best change they gave to Ness, it's just an amazing tool to use for spacing, and it can COMBO now! It's also a lot better at approaching.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Ness + sounds...
Mid tier?
Reading through the topic gave me the impression that he was bad... Then adjusted. And PKT is now very good. Well, I'm happy regardless.
PS: I prefered V- Brawl's Fair tbqh.
Mid tier?
Reading through the topic gave me the impression that he was bad... Then adjusted. And PKT is now very good. Well, I'm happy regardless.
PS: I prefered V- Brawl's Fair tbqh.
dawgbowl
Smash Ace
I had a brawl+ fest on saturday, I successfully used PK flash in tourney play twice. Fair can combo 2-3 times in a row at lower percents its amazing. Ness is mad good now.
D
Deleted member
Guest
?!?! Fair already comboed 3 times no problem before the buff. ......Sometimes I don't feel we're playing the same character.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Oh yeah. PK Flash is really nice now.
I know it's of base Sage, but can we discuss PK Flash?
I know it's of base Sage, but can we discuss PK Flash?
DaiAndOh
Smash Ace
I see 2 main uses of it. Edgeguard and on people right above you on platforms.
thesage
Smash Hero
I feel like your opponents should learn to di/sdi >_>; BTW the fair has been changed twice now...
You guys can discuss anything you want. I'm not going to fully update the first post until Ness is finalized. So any discussion would be very helpful.
I haven't tested out the new Ness. Would you guys prefer yoyos being usable or the specials? I think pk fire should hold people in instead of getting a speed buff =/
Also, I tested out d-tilt's frame data. It can be canceled on frame 5 into another d-tilt, but you have to wait until frame 18 (I think) to cancel it (I think the move is over by then anyways) into another move. So I guess this is a special kind of IASA frames since it's move specific... D-tilt -> d-tilt is an actual combo (with hitstun and everything) if you cancel d-tilt generally around frames 5-8 (depends on the character obviously). Things like d-tilt -> u-tilt or anything else are not actual combos. Buffer probably makes doing this a lot easier though, I don't really know (I greatly dislike the buffer system).
I would prefer his specials be usable. I'm really liking the new PK Flash, I'm actually using it and hitting with it! As for PK Fire, I would like to see the mini speed boost stay. Right now we really only use PK Fire in the earlier percentages to set up combos, and it does a decent job at keeping the enemies inside. In the later percantages it is hardly ever used, and if it happens to hit, the enemy can easily escape before we get to them. I don't think Ness needs to PK Fire to trap someone in order to go in for the kill, because as we know, Ness does just fine at killing.
I'm really in love with the new Ness, he seems perfect now, so I'm hoping he stays this way. >.<
I'm really in love with the new Ness, he seems perfect now, so I'm hoping he stays this way. >.<
D
Deleted member
Guest
Eh I don't play with noobs. You could f-air to f-air again if you were fast enough. Like seriously guys. Everything they buffed just made me laugh; Ness didn't need ANY of it. It's just funny that I'm forgotten about as a Ness main (someone made a post in the NB thread about how the Ness mains were working on him)
thesage
Smash Hero
All you say is that Ness is fine, which nearly everybody disagrees with and you post things that don't usually work for others...
If you want to do changes or something then post your ideas lol.
If you want to do changes or something then post your ideas lol.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Simna made these changes. If you have any complaints with these changes, take it up with him.
From my experiences Fair never combo'd reliably, so I definately disagree with you there. In my opinion, Ness definately needed those buffs to bring him up to par with the other characters. Like thesage said, if you disagree then you should bring up why he didn't need the buffs in the first place.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I have several things I would like changed with Ness
As for Buffs...
1. Edgeguarding Yoyo: If you played 64 you will know what I'm talking about, make his Dsmash hit people away and have it linger in front of you.
2. Better Dthrow: Make it so you can't just DI away, it should combo into things in my opinion.
And then Nerfs...
1. Take away the PKT1 changes except maybe the tail size increase, PKT1 doesn't need to be faster and it doesn't need higher base, if simna really wants to mindgame with it he should wait till we can actually make the projectile itself go faster.
2. Reduce the Size of PK Flash: Not the speed buffs, just the size, I think a 50% increase is too much, you can hit people well below the edge with it and the move does like 37% and kills for gods sake, it doesn't need to be so big.
And Changes...
1. I agree that instead of making PK Fire faster they should make it harder to SDI out of (either that or lower endlag)
2. Make Utilt larger instead of faster: This would help it set up for aerials and lower its potential for comboing into itself.
That's what I have to say about that.
As for Buffs...
1. Edgeguarding Yoyo: If you played 64 you will know what I'm talking about, make his Dsmash hit people away and have it linger in front of you.
2. Better Dthrow: Make it so you can't just DI away, it should combo into things in my opinion.
And then Nerfs...
1. Take away the PKT1 changes except maybe the tail size increase, PKT1 doesn't need to be faster and it doesn't need higher base, if simna really wants to mindgame with it he should wait till we can actually make the projectile itself go faster.
2. Reduce the Size of PK Flash: Not the speed buffs, just the size, I think a 50% increase is too much, you can hit people well below the edge with it and the move does like 37% and kills for gods sake, it doesn't need to be so big.
And Changes...
1. I agree that instead of making PK Fire faster they should make it harder to SDI out of (either that or lower endlag)
2. Make Utilt larger instead of faster: This would help it set up for aerials and lower its potential for comboing into itself.
That's what I have to say about that.
yeah....i was playing at genesis with B+....the fair is good and spacing with it is good, but like 90% of my fairs were DI'd in such a way that i couldnt do another fair after them making them into single hits or two hit combos at best
as far as pk fire goes....trapping ppl better would be nice, but if i had to choose between the two i like the speed buff as it improves the posibility of landing a hit in the first place
after playing at Genesis i feel that ness' recovery did get noticeably(but not a whole lot) better even if the changes made werent directed at his recovery
and delorted1: were u looking for improvements to his ground game? the fsmash range was increased a bit...and there was a change i wanted to make that i couldnt which was making his utilt hitbox 30% bigger, but based on how things went at genesis i'd say it can go without...altho later on when all of the characters are buffer/nerfed to around the same level of play there may need to be small fine-tuning adjustments made.....like getting rid of the massive lag on aerial psi magnet. Oh yeah and his dash attack was also improved. I know pk flash was almost never part of ness' game before and so the changes might seem strange, but that improvement in particular opens up new options for ness, ness playstyles and doesnt force players who dont want to use it to change their playstyles.
Were you looking for better tilts and yoyos? or maybe an improved bair/uair/nair?
EDIT: at Matt: Yeah i had plans for a larger utilt...as for dthrow is actually combos into dash attack at certain low percents depending on the character. The pkt1 speed increase makes recovery a bit better...the faster startup makes the whole thing a little safer and and bkb increase on the head makes it harder still for ppl to sit on ness' head and eat thunders til he is too low to recovery.
Oh and PK Flash is large yes, but when you use pk flash as an edgeguard and chanrge it like that you are pretty much commiting to that option and only that option for the edgeguard...its big alright, but once you do it there is no chance of mixing up your edgeguard
as far as pk fire goes....trapping ppl better would be nice, but if i had to choose between the two i like the speed buff as it improves the posibility of landing a hit in the first place
after playing at Genesis i feel that ness' recovery did get noticeably(but not a whole lot) better even if the changes made werent directed at his recovery
and delorted1: were u looking for improvements to his ground game? the fsmash range was increased a bit...and there was a change i wanted to make that i couldnt which was making his utilt hitbox 30% bigger, but based on how things went at genesis i'd say it can go without...altho later on when all of the characters are buffer/nerfed to around the same level of play there may need to be small fine-tuning adjustments made.....like getting rid of the massive lag on aerial psi magnet. Oh yeah and his dash attack was also improved. I know pk flash was almost never part of ness' game before and so the changes might seem strange, but that improvement in particular opens up new options for ness, ness playstyles and doesnt force players who dont want to use it to change their playstyles.
Were you looking for better tilts and yoyos? or maybe an improved bair/uair/nair?
EDIT: at Matt: Yeah i had plans for a larger utilt...as for dthrow is actually combos into dash attack at certain low percents depending on the character. The pkt1 speed increase makes recovery a bit better...the faster startup makes the whole thing a little safer and and bkb increase on the head makes it harder still for ppl to sit on ness' head and eat thunders til he is too low to recovery.
Oh and PK Flash is large yes, but when you use pk flash as an edgeguard and chanrge it like that you are pretty much commiting to that option and only that option for the edgeguard...its big alright, but once you do it there is no chance of mixing up your edgeguard
D
Deleted member
Guest
Simna I wasn't looking for buffs to Ness at all, other than the main ones you had initially suggested (aka, the PKT1/2 buffs. Those were rational.)
I was not looking to buff his ground game. I only say Ness is fine because I have a hard time reading posts by other Ness mains who say he isn't good - all I can say is that you're either not playing him well or your opponents are really good. There are so many stupidly good combos Ness can do prior to the MAJOR buff from the Genesis build. I really, really need to upload some videos.
I repeat - I have replays that I need someone to upload. They're from the previous Nightly; I'm not sure if you need the codes on to view them properly.
TBH, I'm fine with buffs to PK Flash. The move wasn't working properly. Like, it actually WAS NOT working properly. Some guys here abuse that phrase..I remember reading a couple posts where people would complain about Ness's godly aerials or f-smashes and saying they don't work properly.
PK flash gets canceled if it hits anything; you're so SO vulnerable, it's too slow to properly edgeguard with. I haven't tried it yet (the new build) so I'm cool with the buffs at the moment. Other than the buffs to pk thunder/flash, the rest was not justified. Whatsoever. All I can say is that you guys weren't hitting with them properly.
I still maintain that we need to make his yoyos fixed...I want to be able to charge them off the stage.
edit: I'm going home after work to try the new build. I have a feeling it will be ****ing **** though as Ness was already good.
Thesage, use d-tilt after:
a 3-hit dash-attack;
people recovering whose recovery will not outprioritize you (go to the very end of the stage, make ness go into wobble animation, and d-tilt the hell out of Falcon, pit, marth, snake, etc, etc...)
you can also d-tilt to jab combo. (d-tilt x 3 -> jab jab JAB)
use f-air after a short hop..then immediately DJ and f-air again. Then use PK thunder to juggle them and see what kind of craziness you can come up with.
I was not looking to buff his ground game. I only say Ness is fine because I have a hard time reading posts by other Ness mains who say he isn't good - all I can say is that you're either not playing him well or your opponents are really good. There are so many stupidly good combos Ness can do prior to the MAJOR buff from the Genesis build. I really, really need to upload some videos.
I repeat - I have replays that I need someone to upload. They're from the previous Nightly; I'm not sure if you need the codes on to view them properly.
TBH, I'm fine with buffs to PK Flash. The move wasn't working properly. Like, it actually WAS NOT working properly. Some guys here abuse that phrase..I remember reading a couple posts where people would complain about Ness's godly aerials or f-smashes and saying they don't work properly.
PK flash gets canceled if it hits anything; you're so SO vulnerable, it's too slow to properly edgeguard with. I haven't tried it yet (the new build) so I'm cool with the buffs at the moment. Other than the buffs to pk thunder/flash, the rest was not justified. Whatsoever. All I can say is that you guys weren't hitting with them properly.
I still maintain that we need to make his yoyos fixed...I want to be able to charge them off the stage.
edit: I'm going home after work to try the new build. I have a feeling it will be ****ing **** though as Ness was already good.
Thesage, use d-tilt after:
a 3-hit dash-attack;
people recovering whose recovery will not outprioritize you (go to the very end of the stage, make ness go into wobble animation, and d-tilt the hell out of Falcon, pit, marth, snake, etc, etc...)
you can also d-tilt to jab combo. (d-tilt x 3 -> jab jab JAB)
use f-air after a short hop..then immediately DJ and f-air again. Then use PK thunder to juggle them and see what kind of craziness you can come up with.
Well if you go by that logic, then I can say that about any sucky character, you just aren't using them right. That isn't very good logic.
@Matt
About PK Flash killing that early...
PKT2 kills earlier, and it's probably faster to do, as well, with the difference being that PKT2 has to be hit with at point blank range for it to kill that early while PK Flash has a bigger hitbox leaving more room for error. However, they both leave Ness extremely vulnerable upon using either one, so I think the killing power is reasonable because of the risk involved.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
PK Flash doesn't have much endlag it just has a lot of startup, so if they are far enough for you to edgeguard with it it isn't actually risky.
Oh, I know it hardly has any endlag, I meant that they leave Ness wide open while he's using them. And it's true that it isn't as risky if used when they're far away, but that goes for pretty much every projectile. Anyways, I don't see what's so overpowering about PK Flash, unless you just want to nerf it as a tradeoff to another buff, but the Ness mains should all decide if they would want that.