Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[PKNintendo]

Ness needs to be kept top tier.

It's about time he got some respect.
Bottom in melee, Low in vBrawl. HE WAS LOW MID TIER IN SMASH 64 NOT TOP!
(cries)

Ness should stay top. I think you overate the fair. Just give it some time. And won't anyone fix PK flash? It's still garbage.

 

[Zaffy]

Ever considered giving Ness' PTK2 shield breaker capabilities like Marth's nB?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

How I feel:

-Sometimes I'm convinced that other players are so bottled up in their safety moves and their true combos that they refuse to get better as players...and I'm most definitely talking about non Ness players as much as Ness players....actually probably moreso non Ness players since there are more non Ness players than Ness players.

-I'm hungry.

-I'm completely fine with fair as it is now, but it seems like we are trying to make it combo without making it too good....at least that's what I'm reading...but does it need to combo? What if it was just a bigger move that knocked the opponent away and didn't combo? What if you just combo'd with other moves? And don't give me that "doing that would promote camping" nonsense because there are more campy moves than that will ever be.

-Hey that last thing sounds like 7/10, but really the thing I like the most about this build is that it is to be not changed for a long time.

-Regarding the above: Let's try getting better data that we would if this were just another smash game release. Let's not gravitate towards the characters who ppl say are good/popular....let's step out of our normal characters for a good period of time and develop the meta games of characters who you think wouldn't get as much attention.

 

[Scufo]

So.

I just got B+ 5.0 after playing 4.1 for a while, and I'm wondering what the rationale was behind removing Ness' ability to Up+B again if the thunder gets absorbed?

All the opponent has to do is throw themselves at you as you Up+B and BAM, dead.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

or just don't suck at recovering..

and it's been gone for several nightlies now.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So.

I just got B+ 5.0 after playing 4.1 for a while, and I'm wondering what the rationale was behind removing Ness' ability to Up+B again if the thunder gets absorbed?

All the opponent has to do is throw themselves at you as you Up+B and BAM, dead.

It doesn't actually help much at medium/high level play because if they managed to jump on it the first time they will be able to jump on it the second time too. He got Zap Jump aerials to help his recovery instead. You do them by DJing and using an aerial at the same time, the biggest effect is with fair.

 

[CloneHat]

or just don't suck at recovering..

and it's been gone for several nightlies now.

Don't suck at recovering? How arrogant can you get?

Ness has a terrible recovery, what was traded off for it to be put back to its original?

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Alphatron]

Ness is turning into the new metaknight. What I mean by this is, HE REFUSES TO BE NERFED. -_-

lolz :D

Like I said before, brainshock omega.

Edit: Please, no more changes to him. If fair truly turns out to be MK in disguise, then nerf it. But its not broken by any means. Its hitstun is still terribad for example.

 

[CountKaiser]

Blah

People still *****ing about ness, as usual.

I mentioned giving the last hit of fair more growth. I thought it had enough, but apparently not.


......

Are people even listening to me anymore?

 

[Alphatron]

I'm not sure, considering the fact that your fair changes didn't make it in after all those tests pacs.

 

[CountKaiser]

Actually, I think it did, just modified a bit.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

or just don't suck at recovering..

and it's been gone for several nightlies now.

And that, coming from a guy that can't SHDF with Marth+ .
Wait... I'm under the impression of a déjà vu...

Don't suck at recovering? How arrogant can you get?

Ness has a terrible recovery, what was traded off for it to be put back to its original?

EDIT: ninja'd

Don't get too offended. Laugh it off... .

Ever considered giving Ness' PTK2 shield breaker capabilities like Marth's nB?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?

 

[Deleted member]

being a ness main is so embarrassing, maybe next time you guys will just get better instead of buffing the character

 

[Plum]

being a ness main is so embarrassing, maybe next time you guys will just get better instead of buffing the character

ohshi-

10ohi's

 

[ChaosKnight]

LOOOL dude he was good ever since like before 5.0 oh god people QQing already


but im a marth main soo yeahhhh

 

[[TSON]]

i'd make changes but they'd ultimately be ignored or i'd be scolded ._.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ness honestly doesn't need the infinite PK thunder two. It's a character weakness, and instead of playing to his strengths, you say "Hey, let's remove one of his glaring weaknesses :D" and you're okay with it. That'd be like making Dedede as small as olimar with the same move ranges and say "it was one of his glaring weaknesses so we made him smaller." Ness doesn't need infinite PKT2. Nor does he need it to have shield-breaker properties. wtf? He's already good enough, why would he need that? Or, I was already ninja'd on this, are you out of your mind?

 

[CloneHat]

being a ness main is so embarrassing, maybe next time you guys will just get better instead of buffing the character

A Ness main with pride.

Do what he says.

 

[Alphatron]

While Ness definitely doesn't need infinite pkt1, the stuff about buffing character weaknesses has already been applied to a few other characters already.

 

[CountKaiser]

My god.

A. Ness's recovery as of now is fine and managable.

B. Give the last hit of fair more growth so that it doesn't combo so well at higher percents.

Problems solved. Just patch ness with the last hit of fair having about 10-30 more growth, and he'll be fine. He won't wtfcombo people, and everyone can stop *****ing about how good, bad, broken, or whatever ness is, then we can go to an actual matchup discussion and ****ING STAY ON IT.

 

[Magus420]

Problems solved. Just patch ness with the last hit of fair having about 10-30 more growth, and he'll be fine.

BKB mostly, and personally I also think either the auto-aim 365 angle needs to be removed, or the SDI multiplier increased. Also, D-throw (may end up just fine with the f-air change), PKT1 speedup, and PK Fire are some other major issues people have besides just the f-air.

 

[ChaosKnight]

hes not even that hard to fight against looool

i swear

 

[CloneHat]

I don't find him exceptionally hard either.

That's why we have this long-standing build, so people can just deal with it for a while without changing everything they don't like.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'll definitely need more experience against his fair before I say anything nasty. Although I've gotten the idea, from computers, and from this site, that the nerf somehow made his fair better. Like I said, Ness is the new Metaknight, in the sense that he REFUSES to be nerfed.


O_o

 

[CloneHat]

I'll definitely need more experience against his fair before I say anything nasty. Although I've gotten the idea, from computers, and from this site, that the nerf somehow made his fair better. Like I said, Ness is the new Metaknight, in the sense that he REFUSES to be nerfed.


O_o

Please try to keep your posts legible.

 

[PKNintendo]

BKB mostly, and personally I also think either the auto-aim 365 angle needs to be removed, or the SDI multiplier increased. Also, D-throw (may end up just fine with the f-air change), PKT1 speedup, and PK Fire are some other major issues people have besides just the f-air.

Wasn't it removed?

PK Fire was nerfed to hell and back. It's useless to use now. For proof see Shanus' changes.
Also people keep forgetting about.

PK FLASH SPEEDUP WASN'T IMPLEMENTED


I say Kaiser fixes Fair ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!
(and PK Flash gets fixed)

 

[thesage]

I wasn't talking about changing anything. Just saying that the change to fair ended up making it better instead of making it worse, which was the plan.

Let's actually discuss a matchup now. Meta Knight. I remember somebody picked MK vs. me at one of chu's tournaments and I was able to combo him with bair really well at low-mid percents. Like I did bair x3 once.

MK has a pretty easy time gimping Ness if Ness is forced to recover with pkt2. With zap jump though it's makes him pretty hard to edgeguard since he can zap jump fair, airdodge, and maybe even spike him with dair if the MK is dumb.

Ness has a really easy time killing MK cuz he's so weak. D-throw combos him nicely (at least the d-throw before it was buffed) so you can do d-throw bair/uair if he at too low of a percent to die from B-throw.

Fair has tp like him.

He tries to ledgecamp you pkt or pk fire him.

Mk has gimping, range, and speed.
Ness has combos, and kill power.

This matchup is probably in MK's advantage but not by much.

 

[PKNintendo]

Fair has Tp? Coooooooooool.

But I don't want to sound like some pretentious git but Ness actually may go even or slight advantage now.

 

[Magus420]

PK Fire was nerfed to hell and back. It's useless to use now.

I really hope you aren't serious.

So the PK Flash speedup (in the .pac, it's not supposed to be in the .gct) doesn't actually work?

Also, TP on aerials is generally a bad thing btw.

 

[PKNintendo]

I really hope you aren't serious.

So the PK Flash speedup (in the .pac, it's not supposed to be in the .gct) doesn't actually work?

Also, TP on aerials is generally a bad thing btw.

Okay was joking on that. It's not useless but it's not THAT great. It can be easily gotten out of mashing the control stick. Not DI ing, but mashing. It's weird I know. Hit Shanus up for info.

Yeah the PK flash speedup doesn't work.
Well I like TP aerials.

 

[Magus420]

I'm aware of Shanus' opinion.

 

[PKNintendo]

Indeed.


I will await the verdict of Fair.
But when is PK flash being fixed?

 

[Plum]

Okay was joking on that. It's not useless but it's not THAT great. It can be easily gotten out of mashing the control stick. Not DI ing, but mashing. It's weird I know. Hit Shanus up for info.

Yeah the PK flash speedup doesn't work.
Well I like TP aerials.

Transcendent priority is basically useless on aerials. Considering how aerial priority works, TP only serves to make it worse.
In the air who has more "priority" is determined by what move hit the other character's hurtbox first. So basically, it works similarly to how TP moves are on the ground. Only way to beat the move out is to hit somebody like MK's hurtbox first. But the downside is that TP on aerials offer no real advantage because of how aerials work naturally, while also losing any ability to stop projectiles with that aerial.

I mean, if Ness players REALLY want TP on Fair I won't complain. It only really serves in making the move a little worse.

 

[CountKaiser]

BKB mostly, and personally I also think either the auto-aim 365 angle needs to be removed, or the SDI multiplier increased. Also, D-throw (may end up just fine with the f-air change), PKT1 speedup, and PK Fire are some other major issues people have besides just the f-air.

Why BKB?

And what is wrong with dthrow? Tell people to DI down and away, then tech either away or towards ness to get away from ness.

PK Fire can be gotten out of with a few taps, why are you complaining?

The only one I'm willing to agree on other than fair is the PKT1 speedup. That can go.

 

[shanus]

My two opinions:

PKT1 speedup can go.

Fair SDI multiplier increased, KBG increased. That is all.

I've posted this multiple times in the BR, too.

 

[Magus420]

Why BKB?

And what is wrong with dthrow? Tell people to DI down and away, then tech either away or towards ness to get away from ness.

PK Fire can be gotten out of with a few taps, why are you complaining?

The only one I'm willing to agree on other than fair is the PKT1 speedup. That can go.

Simply giving it enough KBG to actually limit its combo potential would make it into a good KO move. You add at least some BKB for this sort of thing.

I'd tell you to learn how to properly regrab just about any character that isn't a fast faller when they do exactly that. Down and away isn't even the strongest DI, and even perfect DI still doesn't let all but a handful of characters to tech in time.

Unless you happened to escape on the initial hit he generally has time to get to you by the time you escape anyway. It simply yields too high reward currently for how incredibly safe of a projectile it is to throw out when spaced properly. D-throw and f-air play into the effectiveness of this move though, so it could work itself out anyway.

 

[CloneHat]

PK fire is NOT easy to escape it you're a fat character.

 

[CountKaiser]

Simply giving it enough KBG to actually limit its combo potential would make it into a good KO move. You add at least some BKB for this sort of thing.

I'd tell you to learn how to properly regrab just about any character that isn't a fast faller when they do exactly that. Down and away isn't even the strongest DI, and even perfect DI still doesn't let all but a handful of characters to tech in time.

Unless you happened to escape on the initial hit he generally has time to get to you by the time you escape anyway. It simply yields too high reward currently for how incredibly safe of a projectile it is to throw out when spaced properly. D-throw and f-air play into the effectiveness of this move though, so it could work itself out anyway.

If you tweak it right, Fair should never become a good ko move, it wouldn't even be an ok ko move. More KBG is all it needs, leave the BKB alone, otherwise we'll have to find completely new values for it.

As for dthrow, give it more growth too so that it doesn't always lead into a combo at higher percents. It comboing at low percents is perfectly fine.

And from the way you put PK Fire, it could either be ridiculous or completely useless. You could try removing the speedup from it.

I'm messing with the Ness.pac and trying to see if I can make Ness less ridiculous.

 

[Alphatron]

Uh, Plum? Ness' fair had TP back in vbrawl. That being mentioned now doesn't alter the move.


And I really hope any changes implemented don't come for a long time.

 

[Plum]

Uh, Plum? Ness' fair had TP back in vbrawl. That being mentioned now doesn't alter the move.


And I really hope any changes implemented don't come for a long time.

So? I was just saying that TP on aerials makes them worse than they could actually be. Ness's Fair has enough disjointed range to be effective at stopping plenty of projectiles on the fly, but TP ruins that. I actually think it would be a great change to have Fair stopping weak projectiles, myself. Nerf how well it combos, and have it become a somewhat effective projectile shield. Just imagine if MK's aerials lost TP... they would **** even more.

I'm just thinking out loud though :V