Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

Someone test PK Flash and see if the speedup is there. I don't think it is, but it may be me. =/

Also, my friend is *****ing about ness because he has ridiculous combos. I've tried arguing with him, but I can't reason with him. Indisputable evidence that ness isn't broken?

I've mentioned being comboed, easily juggled, and bad recovery, and apparently that doesn't matter if Ness can't be hit. Need help here. =/

 

[Uffe]

Tell him everybody's favorite quote. "Don't get hit."

 

[CountKaiser]

I did, he denounces it due to the nature of the game. In other words, because of how the game is, he's going to get hit.

 

[ChaosKnight]

just tell him to get better

 

[Mattnumbers]

I keep accidentally zap jumping when I'm trying to DJC with Ness. I guess it's probably cause I use "L" to jump. Well I guess I'll just find a new button to also put on jump so that I can specifically use that for DJC.........

 

[Uffe]

I did, he denounces it due to the nature of the game. In other words, because of how the game is, he's going to get hit.

Well it's going to happen eventually. Now that he knows he's going to get hit eventually, he should learn to combo and hit first.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ness is good now, sure, but I still don't think he is OP. His recovery is at Olimar level in my opinion, and if you don't have your DJ offstage you're pretty much screwed.

Also he still has some horrible matchups (IE: G&W)

 

[ChaosKnight]

uh i dont see how he wasnt good in the last patch o.0

 

[Mattnumbers]

Never said he wasn't

 

[Dan_X]

Dthrow:
there are tons of characters who have guaranteed throw set ups... Or close enough to guaranteed: Zelda, Kirby, Captain Falcon's Uthrow to knee, Peach, etc. What's so wrong about Ness having one?

 

[Dan_X]

Ness is good now, sure, but I still don't think he is OP. His recovery is at Olimar level in my opinion, and if you don't have your DJ offstage you're pretty much screwed.

Also he still has some horrible matchups (IE: G&W)

QFT:

exactly. I don't think we should nef Ness on the basis that omgheztehPwnzorznow. The thing is, many people have very little to no experience fighting Ness. He's just one of those characters who not too many people main, like Yoshi. Ness hasn't been as good in Brawl+ till now, and suddenly people are confused, they realize that he's actually good. That scares them into nerf bombing him.

Once people are use to fighting him he won't be so amazing. I think we should hold off 4 months or so on any changes, and see if he's still a problem.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

QFT:

exactly. I don't think we should nef Ness on the basis that omgheztehPwnzorznow. The thing is, many people have very little to no experience fighting Ness. He's just one of those characters who not too many people main, like Yoshi. Ness hasn't been as good in Brawl+ till now, and suddenly people are confused, they realize that he's actually good. That scares them into nerf bombing him.

Once people are use to fighting him he won't be so amazing. I think we should hold off 4 months or so on any changes, and see if he's still a problem.

This statement is so incorrect I could cough a lung out from laughing so hard. I regularly play against thesage, one of the more well-known Ness mains in the community (and consistently beat him), as well as having played CK for the entirety of his Ness+ career (and go roughly 50-50. Depends on who's having the better day, I could be dominating him or he could be dominating me), so it's not that I lack Ness experience. In fact, Ness is one of my most played match-ups, and I personally don't have big issues fighting Nesses at all.

But when you see a relative Ness+ newcomer place highly in a tournament and dominate in crews against two of MD/VA's top Brawl+ players (crews had money on the line as well, so extra incentive not to sandbag there)...hell, forget that. The fact that I picked up Ness that day for ****s and giggles, and was holding my own against Guru (using characters he regularly uses) by spamming fair x3-4 -> other aerial about 2-3 times per stock gives me the impression that there's something amiss.

But I will concede to CK: we probably shouldn't be changing Ness right now (or the entire set for that matter) until further on down the line. That should give people better clarity and insight as to whether Ness is really that borked or not. I just wanted to point out how flawed that logic is, considering I play against Ness more than I do alot of match-ups (and therefore know the match-up) and still think that Ness is broke (it just took a good player using him in a tournament setting against so many other people who weren't me to see it).

 

[JCaesar]

It's just that our ultimate goal is to get every character around DK-level of goodness. Ness used to be well below that, but with the recent buffs we way overshot that goal. I don't think Ness is vBrawl-MK-OP and I don't think we need to re-release the set just to fix Ness, but why does Ness deserve to shoot way up the tier list over, say, Mario or some other low tier character? Just something to think about.

And isn't Marth supposed to be really good in Brawl+? Why is CK's Ness better than his Marth now, even though he has literally years more experience with Marth? (It's not MD/VA's lack of experience against Ness, stop saying that)

 

[Dan_X]

This statement is so incorrect I could cough a lung out from laughing so hard. I regularly play against thesage, one of the more well-known Ness mains in the community (and consistently beat him), as well as having played CK for the entirety of his Ness+ career (and go roughly 50-50. Depends on who's having the better day, I could be dominating him or he could be dominating me), so it's not that I lack Ness experience. In fact, Ness is one of my most played match-ups, and I personally don't have big issues fighting Nesses at all.

But when you see a relative Ness+ newcomer place highly in a tournament and dominate in crews against two of MD/VA's top Brawl+ players (crews had money on the line as well, so extra incentive not to sandbag there)...hell, forget that. The fact that I picked up Ness that day for ****s and giggles, and was holding my own against Guru (using characters he regularly uses) by spamming fair x3-4 -> other aerial about 2-3 times per stock gives me the impression that there's something amiss.

But I will concede to CK: we probably shouldn't be changing Ness right now (or the entire set for that matter) until further on down the line. That should give people better clarity and insight as to whether Ness is really that borked or not. I just wanted to point out how flawed that logic is, considering I play against Ness more than I do alot of match-ups (and therefore know the match-up) and still think that Ness is broke (it just took a good player using him in a tournament setting against so many other people who weren't me to see it).

It's not an incorrect statement. It would have been if I was addressing you, but I wasn't. My point is that Ness mains are fewer and further between than say Squirtle, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, whatever. This isn't a fact, but an observation. Generally you'll encounter other characters before Ness. Because of this, some people don't know the matchup. I didn't say all people. I also didn't say thunderhorse. Perhaps you should be careful next you laugh, I'd hate for you to loose another lung.

How should they change his Fair? Perhaps you've already said how... I can't check now as I'm typing from my iPod. The Fair should link together fully, it could just use some tweaking. I like the idea I saw previously, I forget who said it. Someone mentioned making his early hitboxes have less knockback, and the later ones have more kb. The late hitboxes could be canceled by FFing into the ground-- keeping the move useful in DJCs. Cool idea. It would take more skill to use.

 

[shanus]

It's just that our ultimate goal is to get every character around DK-level of goodness. Ness used to be well below that, but with the recent buffs we way overshot that goal. I don't think Ness is vBrawl-MK-OP and I don't think we need to re-release the set just to fix Ness, but why does Ness deserve to shoot way up the tier list over, say, Mario or some other low tier character? Just something to think about.

And isn't Marth supposed to be really good in Brawl+? Why is CK's Ness better than his Marth now, even though he has literally years more experience with Marth? (It's not MD/VA's lack of experience against Ness, stop saying that)

Its funny how i put down all the frame data for attacks you call broken in the WBR wherein ROBs projects have less lag and do more damage than any comptetent SDI for PK fireand can be aimed easily. 10getbetteragainstgoodness'

 

[Alphatron]

Ness is spamming brainshock Omega. He's only making you think he's broken.

Though does fair still combo into itself? I'd rather it didn't...but not gonna ask for changes now. If anything, the new Ness may just have been naturally suited to the playstyle of that guy at the tourney. Really, that's how I picked him up myself.

 

[slikvik]

Ness is spamming brainshock Omega. He's only making you think he's broken.

Though does fair still combo into itself? I'd rather it didn't...but not gonna ask for changes now. If anything, the new Ness may just have been naturally suited to the playstyle of that guy at the tourney. Really, that's how I picked him up myself.

fair comboes into itself multiple times even up to very high percent, where you can just replace it with uair for the kill

 

[Alphatron]

Well, it was nerfed in this set, losing its buffs while being made much easier to SDI. I suppose that balances out.

 

[shanus]

fair comboes into itself multiple times even up to very high percent, where you can just replace it with uair for the kill

SDI tap down+In, especially if they do it rising as an approach short hop, the last hit will miss straight through you.

 

[CountKaiser]

Fair combos into itself still? But it sends straight up. D:

Blah, ness is just horribly lopsided. He's **** onstage, more so than most characters, and he sucks offstage, more so than most characters.

He may need a tone down, but he isn't broken. Anyone with a counter can't be broken.

 

[shanus]

The fact is ness isn't going to be changed for some time. Given more tourney exposure and practice, we will see how ness is. My bet is just more KBG or SDi capacity on fair and he is fine.

 

[Alphatron]

**** on stage but sucking off stage is true to Ness' smash 64 playstyle. I don't think I've said this already, but good work guys.

 

[Lil'E]

Topic change please.


shanus and sage, whatever happened to those PSI Magnet videos you guys promised?

I still need visuals.

 

[thesage]

I think the d-throw change actually buffed d-throw instead of nerfing it since people could di down and tech before Ness was done with the d-throw at some percents.

I also think fair may combo better now sinds it sends people straight up. Maybe they are di'ing it wrong?

The old pk fire was able to be di'd out after it did 7-10%. Nobody should be complaining about that.

I honestly think the best way to fix fair is just to make the last hit a gtfo/combo finisher move.

 

[ChaosKnight]

It's just that our ultimate goal is to get every character around DK-level of goodness. Ness used to be well below that, but with the recent buffs we way overshot that goal. I don't think Ness is vBrawl-MK-OP and I don't think we need to re-release the set just to fix Ness, but why does Ness deserve to shoot way up the tier list over, say, Mario or some other low tier character? Just something to think about.

And isn't Marth supposed to be really good in Brawl+? Why is CK's Ness better than his Marth now, even though he has literally years more experience with Marth? (It's not MD/VA's lack of experience against Ness, stop saying that)

actually my marth is better than my ness is just that i wasnt used to the changes to marth from last time since they made him lighter than before sooo i had to switch to my secondary so srry to say my marth is better than my ness just wasnt having a good day with marth that day

 

[CountKaiser]

Anyway, enough of all this, time to talk metagame.

What do we start with first? Combos, approaching, defending, recovering, or matchups?

 

[thesage]

Just general discussion for now?

Fair-fair-dair is ****. I dunno how fair to fair works now though but apparently it still exists.

U-throw combos ffers.

 

[shanus]

I'll try and get some vids up (hopefully) this weekend. The good news is I know how the wires I need to record again after losing them during the moving process. The bad news is dangerlance is out for the week for a funeral.

I should be having friends up this weekend, and if so, you will see some vids!

 

[Alphatron]

Let's start with approaching since I suck at that. I usually just go with fair, spaced dash attack, or in rare cases, PK Jumping.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hehe Ness is top tier.

I saw we test out Fair a bit.
Ugh, you guys need to change PKF, it's CRAP now. SDI is way to quick the SDI.

 

[Lil'E]

Let's start with approaching since I suck at that. I usually just go with fair, spaced dash attack, or in rare cases, PK Jumping.

Pretty much the same here. Although sometimes I throw out an usmash or cc dsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

Question - what was wrong with the earlier August build of Ness, other than Yoyo fixes?

 

[shanus]

you mean the one with a fair the size of FD?

 

[[TSON]]

Then take off the fair change and put everything else back like we've said 9000 times

although i like DJC..

....Kinda.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay so we change fair for the BILLIONTH time but what else was needed? This is just getting so silly - I am embarrassed to be a Ness main.

 

[shanus]

Look, its easy to summarize ness changes as is:

Fair: Normal size, but altered to hold better and combo better
Double Jump Cancel: plays awesome, adds a ton to ness
PK Fire: Small speed up, fixed to be SDIable
Downthrow: combo out of

Various small speed changes to thinks like PK Flash, PK thunder, Dair


There's no reason to just settle, Delorted, because you honestly add nothing except complaining. Case and point, peoples biggest grudge is fair, and that is the problem move. But is it broken? We'll wait and see.


People need to stop worrying about change right now, and focus on matchups.

 

[Deleted member]

Seeing as how there has not been a single full page in this thread of Ness matchup discussion, I'm not the only one that seems to be fixated on changes. I just don't see the justification for most of them. I've contributed to lots of stuff. Or do you mean for this particular build?

 

[PKNintendo]

Look, its easy to summarize ness changes as is:

Fair: Normal size, but altered to hold better and combo better
Double Jump Cancel: plays awesome, adds a ton to ness
PK Fire: Small speed up, fixed to be SDIable
Downthrow: combo out of

Various small speed changes to thinks like PK Flash, PK thunder, Dair


There's no reason to just settle, Delorted, because you honestly add nothing except complaining. Case and point, peoples biggest grudge is fair, and that is the problem move. But is it broken? We'll wait and see.


People need to stop worrying about change right now, and focus on matchups.

I say we keep this build.
On to matchups.


Going once, going twice SOLD!

 

[shanus]

I vote for Marth or MK or Fox.

 

[Deleted member]

Shanus I distinctly recall fighting Ness buffs 3-4 months ago and you posted and said "no, Delorted's right, and frankly I (and the WBR) think Ness is totally fine - we agree with him 100%"

Things have changed, sure, but I'm just wondering where that went.