Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[[TSON]]

PK flash is useless. I've been trying to use it, and rarely does it ever work. I kinda liked the build where Ness could SH flash and use it for combos though but I guess that's out of the question since DJC is a huge buff.

 

[CloneHat]

Ness takes off 9 stocks in Hackfest 3.0 crews.

How?

 

[SSBFalco]

That's not too suprising, though I would love to see videos of said Ness.

 

[The Cape]

Well I think what it is is that to not DJC you have to be holding jump.

X and Y are jump, but up is tap jump and holding up is not continually jumping. Or at least thats how I think the game reads it.

Either that, or it was programmed to read X and Y as buttons and not as jump.

 

[The Cape]

Only reason thunderhorse ***** me so much is that Falco is one of 2 characters that Ness cannot Ken combo and lasers > Ness

Thunderhorse had tons of trouble with my and CK's Nesses.

The character has some glaring overbuffed problems that badly need addressed.

 

[thesage]

Thunderhorse had tons of trouble with my and CK's Nesses.

This was before shdl was removed... It really shut down Ness bad. Now the matchup is probably even or in Ness' advantage.

Fair just needs to not **** so much. I don't really know how good djc is in brawl+ cuz I haven't tested it that much.

 

[The Cape]

Falco's new SHL is actually better at shutting down than SHDL as that was never all that good anyway. The ability to approach through that quickly on the ground wasnt all that hard due to the lack of speed between the lasers. With the SHL change it actually makes it easier for Falco to lock you down and to control the distance between you. Falco also could not camp with SHDL before because of Ness down B which should actually catch both lasers and then the windbox could push him away.

 

[[TSON]]

fair angle 30ish
slight KBC increase

lawlfixed

 

[The Cape]

Actually I feel Ness needs a few more things fixed and I am sure most of the attendants of the tournament would agree.

Problem moves:
Fair
D throw
Side B

- Fair needs to have more KBG so that it doesnt combo into everything as easily
- D throw needs something done to it because it gives a free followup at any DI and Ness has time to react because of the huge stun on the throw
- Side B - The sheer speed of this move makes it entirely too safe and can actually be shot at speeds similar to Falco SHL, the move also still locks fairly well to the point that its borderline stupid to get out of. With full smash DI in any direction Ness still has plenty of time to walk up to the opponent, make a sandwich, and then hit them with a followup.

 

[M15t3R E]

CK did use Ness. He used it against my Peach yesterday and our matches went back and forth. Both Peach and Ness are ridiculous in Brawl+.

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually I feel Ness needs a few more things fixed and I am sure most of the attendants of the tournament would agree.

Problem moves:
Fair
D throw
Side B

- Fair needs to have more KBG so that it doesnt combo into everything as easily
- D throw needs something done to it because it gives a free followup at any DI and Ness has time to react because of the huge stun on the throw
- Side B - The sheer speed of this move makes it entirely too safe and can actually be shot at speeds similar to Falco SHL, the move also still locks fairly well to the point that its borderline stupid to get out of. With full smash DI in any direction Ness still has plenty of time to walk up to the opponent, make a sandwich, and then hit them with a followup.

I agree with both of them except the side B. Any speed nerf to the move renders it useless. Seriously, A2 did a frame by frame rating of the move and it ranked on one of his lows.
Change the locking effect, don't change the speed.


Also Sage, I think PK flash is decent. It's a decent option now and it's better than doing nothing.

 

[[TSON]]

i'll mess around with it and see what i can do to fix what cape is pissed about

 

[PKNintendo]

His pissed about the locking effect. It's still hard to DI out of the move. (NO SPEED CHANGES)
Down throw should be nerfed but not TOO nerfed.

 

[The Cape]

Well its either the speed or the locking effect. As of right now you actually have the ability to sideB, then pivot another one while still keeping your relative distance from the opponent.

Silence, not really pissed about it. I just find it rather silly.

 

[thesage]

I think pk fire should do less damage and never should've been sped up. However, I have seen people di out before Ness' lag was finished (ie it did only 7-10% to them). Idk what's up with that move. =/

Ness' can't link into another pk fire if the person di's up the pillar. At that point it only lead into aerials.

 

[PKNintendo]

Definitely the locking effect. The speed of the old move was ridiculous. Ness could easily be punished and their wasn't that much of a pro. It wasn't situational it was just plain bad. What needs to be done DI change.

Basically keep the speed but make it easier to DI after more PKF's.
And about downthrow, I really want it act like anew tech chase. Seriously as of now it's unfair to the opponent, but with PROPER nerfing we can make it not suck.

I think pk fire should do less damage and never should've been sped up. However, I have seen people di out before Ness' lag was finished (ie it did only 7-10% to them). Idk what's up with that move. =/

The only wrong thing you've said about Ness. A2 has made a wall of text as to why PK Fire is beyond bad. (Frame data and all)

The problem is sometimes not DI properly ****s you up.

 

[[TSON]]

So wait.

You're mad that fair links into itself and all other DJC aerials, right?

So should I make it still and very amazing approach, but doesn't lead into DJC fair, but instead regular fair... Then.... profit? D:

 

[JCaesar]

Out of 10 teams (I don't remember how big the Herb 2 brawl+ tournament was)? I lost to chu and boss (who won the tournament) and then this double wolf team that I believe beat you and took 3rd place.

G-Reg and I beat H Box and Yeahuhzz and we got 3rd. We only lost to Chu/Boss who got 1st and Echo/M2K who got 2nd.

/offtopic correction

 

[The Cape]

For the PK fire, toning down the speedup a bit may be a good option. I did some testing with it and at about Bat's length away the move is almost entirely safe against a grounded opponent. It ends soon enough that they cannot approach after its completion. On block it has enough stun to allow Ness to pivot another while you gain the same amount of ground that Ness just gave up. On sidestep he gains even more range.

The PK fire locking in also being ridiculous is what makes the move a bit more insane. You dont need multiple PK fires when you can PK fire > just about anything. That is the issue here.

For D throw, lowering the angle and the base a bit so that it sets up a true tech chase on all characters and not a free aerial or regrab should be a good way to go about it.

Fair needs more KBG so that the weak hits can still link to grabs on the ground, but the aerial version (using the last hitbox) will actually induce some decent KB that can KO off stage at a moderate percent (150+) and wont combo into itself or anything else for a long period of time. Part of this issue is due to the fact that the fair has such increased range that it is now his furthest reaching aerial and usually his best combo option off of the fair. Making the final hit of fair a combo move at all may actually be the issue at hand. By giving it a good deal more base and growth we could allow the move to do good damage and knock people away or off the stage. This would allow Ness to therefore reassert his attack from another vantage point. While the final hit would knock away the weak hits would still allow Ness the ability to cancel on the ground (even possibly with DJC) to allow Ness the ability to grab or U tilt to setup a combo using uair and/or bair.

Thoughts?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

DJC is awesome. >.>

and it feels really natural..

just hold the button if you want to do a rising aerial.

and just tap the button if you want to DJC.

 

[[TSON]]

I have fair -> grab at low percentages on Wario, Bowser, Dedede, and a few other characters atm with angle 48 on final hit with bad/no DI. If they have good DI then they can tech, unfortunately to punish their tech you can follow up with PK fire... Not sure what to do there. Increasing BKB would be my first choice, but I want to look out for setting up into another fair. It's just low enough that the foe can tech atm. I was thinking of giving PK fire a larger SDI multiplier as well to possibly balance this combo out. Thoughts?

 

[PKNintendo]

For the PK fire, toning down the speedup a bit may be a good option. I did some testing with it and at about Bat's length away the move is almost entirely safe against a grounded opponent. It ends soon enough that they cannot approach after its completion. On block it has enough stun to allow Ness to pivot another while you gain the same amount of ground that Ness just gave up. On sidestep he gains even more range.

The PK fire locking in also being ridiculous is what makes the move a bit more insane. You dont need multiple PK fires when you can PK fire > just about anything. That is the issue here.

For D throw, lowering the angle and the base a bit so that it sets up a true tech chase on all characters and not a free aerial or regrab should be a good way to go about it.

Fair needs more KBG so that the weak hits can still link to grabs on the ground, but the aerial version (using the last hitbox) will actually induce some decent KB that can KO off stage at a moderate percent (150+) and wont combo into itself or anything else for a long period of time. Part of this issue is due to the fact that the fair has such increased range that it is now his furthest reaching aerial and usually his best combo option off of the fair. Making the final hit of fair a combo move at all may actually be the issue at hand. By giving it a good deal more base and growth we could allow the move to do good damage and knock people away or off the stage. This would allow Ness to therefore reassert his attack from another vantage point. While the final hit would knock away the weak hits would still allow Ness the ability to cancel on the ground (even possibly with DJC) to allow Ness the ability to grab or U tilt to setup a combo using uair and/or bair.

Thoughts?

Agree with all points. Your ready to go sir.

 

[[TSON]]

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qm3qz2xytel

test.

That's fair and dthrow. If it's good, then I'll get started on PK fire.

 

[shanus]

10 get betters:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8432284&postcount=12486

SDI'ing out PK fire isn't hard. Go practice it. I'm fine with removing the speed-up, but its just silly that people have issues with it. Load up training mode, and do it.


That or people just need to pick up G&W and CP him hard. Shut down PKT1 offense, shut down any ness approach with bair, hard to combo too. Oh boy!

 

[SSBFalco]

I know how to DJC and how to do rising aerials. It's just hard (for now) to remember in the middle of a match and you have to be make critical decisions in split seconds. So yeah, hopefully it's just me not being used to DJC causing my mess ups, and hopefully with practice DJC mistakes will lead to less suicides/combo fails.

But seriously, people have no problem with the hitlag on fair? It drives me crazy . And DJC bair has to be the best thing ever. Nobody has time to react/predict it lol.

 

[CountKaiser]

G&W ***** Ness, as he has all the tools to shut him down.

Fair? Bair

UpB? Bucket

PK FIre? Bucket

PKT1 Offense? Bucket

DJC? Light, floaty, hard to combo

PK Flash? Bucket

Any Ness Approach? Space Bair

GG

 

[ChaosKnight]

hmmm maybe you guys should keep this codeset around for a bit so people get used to it just an idea



and yes i can SDI ness's side b in one tap and a jump or 2 taps and a sheild :/

just plz let this one stay out for a while so people get used to it xD

if anything let people learn their characters i still havent learned marth but i can Fthrow tipper most people to death from like 60-70%

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

We're talking about changes? What happened to "This build is a build which we plan to let stay unchanged for a while and collect a lot of balancing data before we officially go gold. "

I mean....let's not make the same mistakes OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.....the build JUST came out....early data gathered is worth very little

 

[GHNeko]

No no. THey're going to stop talking about changes.

 

[shanus]

We're talking about changes? What happened to "This build is a build which we plan to let stay unchanged for a while and collect a lot of balancing data before we officially go gold. "

I mean....let's not make the same mistakes OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.....the build JUST came out....early data gathered is worth very little

No, we aren't going to implement any balance changes for some time. This set is to collect data, don't worry.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Oh that's cool. Also Ness has a shield break combo that starts with PK Flash....


just fyi

lol

 

[shanus]

Oh that's cool. Also Ness has a shield break combo that starts with PK Flash....


just fyi

lol

do tell, im interested in tihs one.

 

[thesage]

Pk flash has a large amount of shieldstun.

Like I said before, it's entirely possible to di out of pk fire. I've seen several people do it vs. me. My friend di'd out of it the first match he played brawl+ with Charizard.

The new angle for d-throw probably makes it easier to combo with it.

 

[shanus]

For the whiners:

PK fire (total frame count) 51 from original 55. Yeah, that move is too fast. Oh, and its SDIable now too which it wasnt before. NESS IS TOO GOOD

 

[PKNintendo]

Fifty Five frames WITH A FRAME BOOST?


****. That's pretty crappy. I'm cool with PK Fire the way it is now (especially now it is now SDIable)

Regarding Ness complaints:
PK fire: SDI out in 2 taps + a jump (you can even do it 1, but thats hard). Remove the speed up if you want (lol 10% start-up, huge difference) but its not hard to DI it with ness experience. Most people here -zero- ness experience, big shock when they play one for the first time I bet

Hehe nice.

 

[[TSON]]

No. 51 frames with the boost, 55 without.

 

[matt4300]

Fifty Five frames WITH A FRAME BOOST?


****. That's pretty crappy. I'm cool with PK Fire the way it is now (especially now it is now SDIable)


[/b]

Hehe nice.

No its really crappy... with the new SDI I cant even get a hit on a peach com at 0 if shes hit by it. She just jumps out instantly. Its pretty crappy REALLY crappy... not to mention his yo yos are back in sucksdickstown. OH well.... Hes still fun...

 

[shanus]

correction, PSA tells me I was lying!

I underesitmated ness' PK fire times.

He can IASA out of the move on frame 59!

That means a 10% speedup shaves off only 5.5 frames!

 

[PKNintendo]

Grah...
Oh well.

PK Fire SDI is really terrible now. Oh well, it's better than nothing. Dude his yo-yo's don't suck, he doesn't clash with moves now (IE, if you hit the yo-yo, the whole hitbox goes away)

 

[SSBFalco]

Yeah, I'd really rather have the yo-yos we have right now than the old buffed ones, they're much more useful. And has anyone gotten used to DJCing yet? I'm still trying to remember to hold the button down when I'm recovering/edgegaurding.