Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Revven]

So half of shanus' build was his fault(no offense to him), the other half due to inexperience, it seems.

Why were you yelling at us, Falco400?

Inexperience? No, I know how to play against Ness. I've played against Ness a lot in vBrawl and knew you could PS the PK Fire. The PK Fire in shanus's build literally, according to Magus, had an angle that pulled you in more to keep you inside the PK Fire. While I had no trouble with it with Wario in a friendly Cape showed me, when I was DDD, that Ness had a PK Fire infinite on him with this angle change PK Fire had. This is fixed now, so I'm not mad about that anymore.

If Dthrow had a change in shanus's build (which according to Cape, it was changed, that being an angle) he was able to regrab DDD at the very least and do another Dthrow. He was able to get Nair on my Wario even though I DI'd full down and away. I know characters have guaranteed grab combos (Sheik) but they don't have a move where it combos into itself 3-4 times after a throw. DI'ing into Ness gives him a free Uair, which is pretty freakin' good as is. But hey, you're the Ness mains, do what you want with Dthrow. I suppose you guys should just go and check it you yourselves on this one.

Basically, it was mostly the Fair that was ridiculous. That was the only thing that posed a huge problem. I assumed, that, most of the changes in the build were your ideas whic is why I got kinda mad. I'm sorry for that outburst there, I probably should just go and punch shanus instead.

 

[CountKaiser]

Can I help?

jkjk

But what did Shanus change the angle of dthrow to? o.O

 

[Revven]

I haven't looked at the .PAC, you can if you want I mean he did post it in here. But I am pretty sure its angle was changed slightly as when I DI'd full down and away he was still able to hit me with something, generally Nair or Fair. Unless somehow I'm having a placebo effect happening, I shouldn't be wrong on the angle being changed.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm

All I can see is that BKB was reduced from 90 to 80, and KBG was increased from 30 to 35.

The BKB was reduced because previously, people could DI down and away, then tech away, and Ness couldn't follow up at all.

I previously proposed keeping the BKB, but changing the angle to 80 from 70. Shanus said that didn't work, though. Not sure why, since angles between 80 and 100 or so degrees are much less influenced by DI.

 

[Alphatron]

Can't test it but aren't heavies able to DI up as well to prevent another PK fire from hitting them?

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, that only works until they land again, which will result in another PK fire hitting them. =/

 

[shanus]

Here's the deal:

1) Ness mains, you guys suck chunks at balancing.

2) Ness is broken right now, PK Fire can infinite DDD, DK, and Bowser if you get them inside the main bulk of it. It's ********, I literally had to go WARIO to beat Cape's Ness today, I couldn't go DK AT ALL because of this and some other stupid **** you guys did.

3) Ness's Fair is ******** right now. You guys seem to already know this. Fair combos INTO ITSELF and you cannot escape it with SDI AT ALL. It's freakin' ******** and no matter which way you DI, he can either get Fair or Uair on you...

4) DJC is useless with all these other aerial and projectile buffs you are giving this guy. Either remove it or remove A LOT OF THE BUFFS HE HAS RIGHT NOW.

5) Dthrow shouldn't have guaranteed follow-ups, this includes regrabbing for another Dthrow, Fair, and Nair. He can right now CG heavies and I'm pretty sure FFer's with his current Dthrow. Go back to how it was, it was FINE, it took skill to follow-up from it. It's retardedly good right now.

It's a problem when Cape doesn't even main Ness, plays him the ENTIRE tournament and takes 2nd place. Good job Ness mains, good job.

The thing about Ness right now is he doesn't even have to DJC to win. He can literally wall you with Fair and you can't do **** except attack him from above and guess who can only do that? Wario because of his amazing aerial mobility and ability to camp Ness out better. The point is, if you want DJC to be apart of Ness's game, a lot of these buffs need to be removed or need to be SUBTLE.

Edit: Ness Side B is fixed apparently so we were using the build from YESTERDAY. Sorry.

I give you 10 fails for using the old ness + DJC instead of thr new set

also anyone who thinks ness dthroe can CG failed at DI

basically everything you complained and flamed me about was fixed a while ago. So how about you read/contribute more before posts like these?

Also kaiser i think your fair angles make it not useful for DJC. Setting it to 70 or 75 makes it nonselflinkable, pops up enough during the DJC to grab or uair and hard to space on a dash fair

i think the current BR set is near perfect, and giving me **** for an overdonr set which you helped with all the angles and
size is laughable CK (go 10 pages back and you wanted a bigger fair)

getting things perfect in a developing metagame while totally redoing a char takes time

 

[CountKaiser]

He said he was using you 9/4 set, shanus.

 

[Revven]

Hmmm

All I can see is that BKB was reduced from 90 to 80, and KBG was increased from 30 to 35.

The BKB was reduced because previously, people could DI down and away, then tech away, and Ness couldn't follow up at all.

I previously proposed keeping the BKB, but changing the angle to 80 from 70. Shanus said that didn't work, though. Not sure why, since angles between 80 and 100 or so degrees are much less influenced by DI.

I've thought about Dthrow popping behind like MK's does right now and that would make his throw similar to how Lucas's Dthrow is right now. Then I thought about making it work like Kirby's Dthrow so he could Utilt afterwards but then that would lead to Uair... and would be kind of plain. I'm not really sure how to handle Dthrow tbh, I guess how it is right now is alright as long as he seriously can't regrab characters.

I'm thinking he should lose the PKT1 speed-up though because it needs to be punishable if I air dodge through it. I couldn't punish Ness at all for it and when I was about to, he would PS it.

Fair shouldn't be really amazing but, should at least be decent so I have the chance to SDI it or just plain avoid another Fair. I'm thinking you should increase the KBG on the last hit just to be safe and see how it works out because I don't know how much just an angle change will do.

shanus, nobody told us anything was updated. Also, Cape was able to regrab DDD at least once and do another Dthrow. It may not be able to CG as easy as say, Wario's Dthrow could but, Ness was definitely able to regrab DDD. I saw it with my own eyes and I DI'd it full down and away, he grabbed me before I could tech. Unless somehow I was just DI'ing full away, which would then make sense. So yes, we do fail, though we thought nothing would have been changed in a day. Shows how quick you guys really do work.

I'm not really sure of what else you could potentially get rid of as a buff Ness has gotten that he doesn't need when he has DJC. Obviously PKT1 speed-up should be gone though, the PKT2 is fine, I was easily able to Uair it with Wario.

Edit: Oh and if anyone cares, I DO have replays of me vs. Cape's Ness as Wario and I think Cape saved a few replays on his Wii when he was Ness (not sure) so if you want, I can show you how ******** Fair was. And yes, every time he did hit me with Fair I was SDI'ing like a madman, tapping my control stick and just not getting out at all. It probably required double stick, but, I don't think an aerial like Ness's should be THAT hard to get out of.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, both go to the same action, 11B, so getting rid of one will get rid of the other.

But I am enjoying my new fair that isn't dumb but is still sexy. I gave it 15 more KBG, and it seems fine now.

 

[shanus]

At 1x size and the current dize you can SDI out of the fair (load up training and practice it). Depending on the approach SDI up or down, in or out is not nearly as effective

New PK fire is SDIable

aAs a floaty char you should just DI up at low % and his only option is nair then

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, you try my fair that sends people up and backwards slightly?

The weak hit uses angle 365, which links better than a conventional angle. It doesn't work all the time, though, and to counteract the fair linking better, I increased SDI to 1.0.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

And Simna, if all you have to contribute is remove DJC for PK Flash or whatever, don't contribute.

I just made a post explaining to sage that I wasn't saying the above. My concerns about DjC have nothing to do with pk flash.


and PK Flash is more than a poke....it also combos.....i dont know why i have to say this because i've explained it so many times in this topic already

and how can you say that areas covered by pk flash are already covered by other moves? everything is completely interchangeable....and im pretty sure pk flash was coverfing those areas BEFORE things like upsmash since pk flash was buffed before the yoyos were buffed

 

[thesage]

The 4 damage hit has a 0.00x SDI multiplier, and while the 2 and 1 damage hits have a huge SDI mult of 1.50x that doesn't matter because they don't have hitlag to be able to SDI anyway due to one of the special offensive flags combined with the hitlag code. This will be fixed in the next build (SDI Mult of 0.8x and 2 hitlag/1 frame SDI window).

Then how are people di'ing out of it now? This has happened to me mid-match, after it dealt only around 7 damage vs. Charizard and Marth by two different people.

Pk fire has always been a crap move since people were able to shield/di out of it. If people
can do that now then it shouldn't be nerfed. All that should be changed is the damage it
does (since djc will greatly increase the amount of damage it can do since pk fire to multiple hits of djc uair will probably be possible...). The sdi-ability of pk fire should not be changed since it's still possible to di out of it. I really like how the di of the move is set up since people can only di out of it away from Ness so he can't get punished for actually landing the move like in 64, melee, and vbrawl.

Or you could just make it useless/ a situational edgeguard again.

 

[CountKaiser]

Have the move send at 90 degrees or so, so that people can DI out of it.

 

[shanus]

Then how are people di'ing out of it now? This has happened to me mid-match, after it dealt only around 7 damage vs. Charizard and Marth by two different people.

Pk fire has always been a crap move since people were able to shield/di out of it. If people
can do that now then it shouldn't be nerfed. All that should be changed is the damage it
does (since djc will greatly increase the amount of damage it can do since pk fire to multiple hits of djc uair will probably be possible...). The sdi-ability of pk fire should not be changed since it's still possible to di out of it. I really like how the di of the move is set up since people can only di out of it away from Ness so he can't get punished for actually landing the move like in 64, melee, and vbrawl.

Or you could just make it useless/ a situational edgeguard again.

Its because of the initial hit KB and KBG and not SDI

PK fire afforded no hitlag and ability to SDI before. Its escapability before was literally only the effects of the knockback properties

Now it will require multi-hit SDI to escape in which Ness should be able to grab if you don't do it quick enough.

 

[[TSON]]

where's the latest test build? Jeez I go away for a couple days and come back to like 7 new pages lulz

 

[thesage]

So you're making it harder to di out of pk fire now since you're requiring the use of SDI instead of multiple di inputs?

 

[Mattnumbers]

CK I tested out your Ness pac and it's pretty good, I got no complaints about Ness from anyone and besides me a couple others played him.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Shanus its ultimately up to you....What do you think of a compromise size for pk flash at like 1.8x.....between 2x and 1.5x? that 50% is a big change when it come sto a move like pk flash

 

[thesage]

Hey guys, if you guys want to actually start discussing Nesss instead of buffs, pk flash, infinite pkt1, and ditlt please go here:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=367

Yes it's allisbrawl, but at least we can at least develop some stuff? Like delorted could write up how to use d-tilt? Me/somebody discuss sweetspotting with pkt2. Or talk about combos you find and/or psi magnet rapage. IDK just suggestions, you know, to be like other character mains...

 

[CountKaiser]

@Simna: 1.75 would be a more sensible number, since it is the midpoint between 1.5 and 2

@thesage: Talking about possible djc combos would be awesome. Though speaking of delorted, where is he?

 

[shanus]

DJC combos/set-ups I've observed so far (some of which are surprisingly effective):

Fair utilt -> DJC uair -> anything
uair -> anything lmao
fair buffered upsmash (works on certain chars)

PK fire DJC uair -> anything

its hard to discuss the options as they are all DI dependent and pretty much vast. All of those uairs i listed could also be nairs used to setup a techchase, etc. Basically, the options are endless.

 

[thesage]

Uair usually doesn't have enough hitstun to count as a consecutive hit in training mode if I remember correctly, or I could just be using djc wrong. It's really awkward to djc in brawl+ for me...

 

[SSBFalco]

Wait, all this DJC talk is confusing me now. Are we actually considering giving Ness DJC? I can't help but feel a little happy/excited, but I still don't see the reason why we're doing this.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm here. I still play brawl+. Just bored with all these silly changes you guys are making

meaning i'd gladly help write up when to use d-tilt

 

[Deleted member]

double post biatchessss

don't change PK fire. the way it is now you can gimp Ike soooooo easily and people say ike mad counters ness... PK fire goes through his up-b if you time it right and it falls and you can repeat it till he dies it's so sick.

 

[Deleted member]

triple post what! Here's a video showing what I was talking about my previous post - gimping ike. Check it out, I gimp him 2 different ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ojG89VIvE

sorry for bad quality

 

[thesage]

I the creator of this thread approve of the triple post.

Delorted you should post when you upload new videos... The Peach one wasn't known to me til now...

 

[Lil'E]

This may sound silly... But is Ness going to be getting his PING back?

 

[matt4300]

This may sound silly... But is Ness going to be getting his PING back?

Embarrassingly seconded... Haveing the ping on just the tipper was very satisfying... It told you you caved there face in... rather than just cracking there knees.

 

[Deleted member]

no comments on my pk fire -> dair? works on a lot of characters who recover above the stage, ie falcon, marth, ike, kirby, snake, etc...

 

[Lil'E]

That technique didn't always work for a nice meteor smash before?

 

[shanus]

no comments on my pk fire -> dair? works on a lot of characters who recover above the stage, ie falcon, marth, ike, kirby, snake, etc...

its called the cazcombo, and its been around for a long time lol

 

[Lil'E]

I thought as much.

I was thinking that it somehow got removed in the transition from vbrawl to brawl+ after he brought it up.

**** is so sick. Especially reverse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULlJiVc2E7A

 

[Deleted member]

my variation is a little different because you dont need to leave the stage, you can just spam people who are recovering..

/failed justification

 

[thesage]

Cazcombo was in 64 so no it's not new delorted. There's a video of it and everything lol. I personally prefer pk flash to kill Ike cuz it looks cooler, but pk fire is probably the safer choice.

So what's the wbr's plan for Ness in the new nightly?

Also, guys, be active on the Ness+ boards on AIB. I don't want to have to make 10 topics...

 

[GHNeko]

^^^^^

This. I'll even help you guys there.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=367

Get at me.

 

[Lil'E]

Forum registration is such a pain though.

Needs more guest accounts.

 

[GHNeko]

Just do it and get it over with. I want that board to be your home cuz next release isnt gonna be updated in a while.