Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

Anyone try my fair and dthrow?

Do they work? D:

Also, I can try to make a melee uair. Gimme some specs to go on.

 

[thesage]

What else would you remove over the pkt buffs?

Melee fair frame data:

7-13%
Total: 45
Hit: 8-11
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <7 27>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9

vBrawl uair frame data:

Start up:7
Hits: 8
Hitlag: 9-17
Ends: 51
Landing lag: 12
Shield Lag: 10
Shield stun: 4

Huh, I guess it's speed it's fine, it just has a really awkward hitbox.... Make the hitbox a bit bigger I guess =/

It's knockback is fine, it just doesn't seem to have enough hitstun. So I guess play around with it to have the same growth rate but with more hitstun?

On semi-topic: I learned how to do uair to bair on fox in melee and make it count as a consecutive hit. =D

Edit: So to go more in depth from the vbrawl frame data, in brawl+ uair has 6 frame of landing lag. If uair has 19 frames of shieldstun he should be able to shieldbreak combo with it. That's if the frame data goes like:

uair hits ~1 frame
Hit ground~6 frames
Jump ~4 frames (that's what it was in melee)
Double jump ~1 frame
DJC Uair ~ 7 frames
Uair hits~ 1 frame (I'm not counting this frame)

So yea we just need to get the shieldstun values for uair.

For bair:

Start up: 9
Hits: 10
Hitlag: 11-25
Ends: 49
Landing lag: 12
Shield Lag: 10
Shield stun: 5

In brawl+ the landing lag is reduced to 6

Bair hits ~1 frame
Hit ground~6 frames
Jump ~4 frames (that's what it was in melee)
Double jump ~1 frame
DJC Bair ~ 9 frames
Bair hits~ 1 frame (I'm not counting this frame)

Frame advantage needed for bair to shieldbreak combo is 22 according to that list.

Could somebody make sure this stuff is correct. I'm pretty sure nair, dair, and fair are disadvantaged when they hit a shield (again I haven't tested this out in frame by frame mode)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

uncharged pk flash 7/10 > tp upsmash

EDIT: instead of pk thunder buffs we could remove ftilt.....no one cares about that move....let's just remove ness' legs

EDIT: i would drop the damage on like every aerial move ness has before dropping the speed buff on pkt

 

[[TSON]]

Dtilt nerf

I don't think you can nerf it any more than was already done

 

[CountKaiser]

Uair has 11 frames shieldstun, bair has 13.

And in order for a move to have hitstun, is has to send farther, AKA more launch speed. So you want uair to kill as well as it does now and somehow have more hitstun, correct?

I'll see what I can do.

 

[shanus]

I dont think uair needs buffs :-O

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think you can nerf it any more than was already done

It was a full list of nerfs, that one already happened I wasn't saying to nerf it even more.

Also why do you like PKT1 so much simna, it's really a garbage not-so-good projectile, and to change that we need to actually make it travel faster.

 

[[TSON]]

It was a full list of nerfs, that one already happened I wasn't saying to nerf it even more.

oh ok

Also why do you like PKT1 so much simna, it's really a garbage not-so-good projectile, and to change that we need to actually make it travel faster.

orrrrrrrr you could bring back infinite pkt1 like everyone wants }:<

 

[shanus]

oh ok



orrrrrrrr you could bring back infinite pkt1 like everyone wants }:<

because everyone knows ness needs more buffs.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I dont think uair needs buffs :-O

i dont think ness needs ANY buffs.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Infinite PKT isn't a very good buff, it holds you hand when your recovering and the only real use for it at higher levels of play is PKT1 in the air onstage.

And I don't really think he needs buffs either, I just think that he should have things that are different than what he has now. Thats why I'm trying to think of nerfs that would be good.

Possibilities:
Worse fair (just make it a semi camp move, it doesn't need to combo, as long as it keeps them till the last hit moderately well)
Vanilla PKT1
Dtilt nerf (already in)
Dthrow angle nerf
Various damage nerfs (especially PK Flash as long as we compensate the KB)
PK Fire keeps the enemy in it worse
No SA on magnet, magnet is 7 frames (already happening)

If we get a good amount of nerfs we could have pretty much all the other stuff we want, but someone is always going to end up unhappy.

Main buffs I personally want (that aren't already in):
TP yoyo's
Better Uair (compensate this with the fair nerf)
PK Flash buff (really X1.5 is fine with me but if you guys want you could nerf him more and try to get X2)

 

[CountKaiser]

Really, why does everyone want a uair buff? It's fine, for god's sake.

Why nerf the angle of dthrow? Don't nerf it, just change it so that cg's aren't guaranteed.

Fair is Ness's best approach option, it should be able to combo into something, just not itself. I have a fair that sends the opponent up and behind ness to set up for either bair or uair. If no one minds, reduce the damage back to what it was before (2-2-2-2-3).

My yoyo's are going out the door for tp yoyos. Leave PK Flash as it is, Simna, stop crying already, ****.

And stop crying about infinite PKT1. It isn't coming back, all it does is try to facilitate thoughtful gimps, which in the end doesn't work too well.

I'll need shanus to send me his pac file before I can post a .pac and gct file that has the proposed Ness changes.

 

[thesage]

I was to only person who suggested a change to uair Kaiser lol. So instead of Ness going fair -> fair -> fair he went fair -> djc uair -> djc uair. Fair is (or at least should) get a nerf in combo ability next build. It's just too much **** vs. everybody not Falco or Zelda.

Pk fire shouldn't keep the enemy in worse. Some people can pwoershield while they are in the fire...

 

[CountKaiser]

Really? My friends think it's OP because they can't even SDI out of it.

No, seriously, we tested, you can't SDI out of PK Fire.

 

[thesage]

I've had a Marth and Charizard shield and the Marth was able to get out after it dealt 7 damage to him. Then again, this Marth was Meep lol.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

At the very least pkt should stay as it is now and not change. Its one thing for people to think that uncharged pk flash isnt good for anything that isn't done already by another move(which is horribly wrong), but then for someone to think that PKT with the cooldown buff isn't that good of a projectile just makes me fall down irl.

Its OKAY for fair to combo into itself sometimes...we don't need to change that. A character's rangiest and safest move is always gonna be the most popular one that's just the way it is...if a player can't bring themself to take the risk of using a move that is less safe than fair then they arent a good player.

Also I know this is all for testing and whatnot and the next nightly isnt a B+ tournament build release or anything, but I'm still very wary of DjC. In melee DjC was the strongest offensive action a character could take and while it may not have the same offensive strength as it does in melee it has some(and from the way it sounds we are trying to give it more) and doesn't have the main drawback of a real DjC: the recovery detriment. If anything, to keep it from being too good, we should take the aerials that don't work low to the ground fast falled.....and leave them that way.

And can't we compromise on pk flash size or something? like 1.8x?


EDIT: lol what if pk fire was really easy to DI out of, but it started even if it didnt hit anything and it wouldnt go away until it spent its entire duration not hitting anything

 

[thesage]

Fair combos into itself a lot of the time though simna....

 

[ChaosKnight]

ness is fine just give him a better recovery no joke .... XD

 

[CountKaiser]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b42ecfe49bc8632bb75621d66e282a0ee8

Changelist

Fair
Weak hit now has 1.0 SDIability, 0.9 hitlag, and uses special angle 365
Strong hit sends at 105 degrees

Removed PKT1 speedup

Removed SA magnet

Yoyos now have transcendent priority

Usmash speed up removed

Dsmash regular size

PK Flash 1.5x larger, 25% faster startup, 100% faster cooldown

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

gah CK why did you remove the pkt1 speedup? wasnt that only brought up as a tradeoff for an improved uair? and even then....

 

[CountKaiser]

Sorry, I can put it back in.

But in all seriousness, I need opinions of this set.

 

[PKNintendo]

Possibilities:
Worse fair (just make it a semi camp move, it doesn't need to combo, as long as it keeps them till the last hit moderately well)
Vanilla PKT1
Dtilt nerf (already in)
Dthrow angle nerf
Various damage nerfs (especially PK Flash as long as we compensate the KB)
PK Fire keeps the enemy in it worse
No SA on magnet, magnet is 7 frames (already happening)

Most of those are terrible nerfs.

Kaiser I saw we keep your set. It's clearly the best.

Fair
Weak hit now has 1.0 SDIability, 0.9 hitlag, and uses special angle 365
Strong hit sends at 105 degrees

Removed PKT1 speedup

Removed SA magnet

Yoyos now have transcendent priority

Usmash speed up removed

Dsmash regular size

PK Flash 1.5x larger, 25% faster startup, 100% faster cooldown

This. DJC wasn't removed right?

 

[thesage]

Most of those are terrible nerfs.

They are suggestions to balancing Ness without entirely changing his game.

 

[PKNintendo]

They are suggestions to balancing Ness without entirely changing his game.

Kaiser's set balances Ness without putting him over the top.

Worse fair (just make it a semi camp move, it doesn't need to combo, as long as it keeps them till the last hit moderately well) sure
Vanilla PKT1

sure

Dtilt nerf (already in)

sure

Dthrow angle nerf

A negatory. Makes the move beyond useless. There is no point in downthrowing with Ness if you nerf it.

Various damage nerfs (especially PK Flash as long as we compensate the KB)

Damage nerfsd should never be considered. PK Flash being easy to dodge more than makes up for the massive damage.

PK Fire keeps the enemy in it worse

Why? PKF is already easily DI'ed. Don't see nerfing it as a good idea.

No SA on magnet, magnet is 7 frames (already happening)

Sure

Also I do NOT want to debate this.

 

[PaintedGhost]

Why is it that the ness thread, a thread for a character already deemed to be pretty good (Not OP by my standards though other people's opinions differ), is almost always discussing nerfs/buffs?

 

[thesage]

Why is it that the ness thread, a thread for a character already deemed to be pretty good (Not OP by my standards though other people's opinions differ), is almost always discussing nerfs/buffs?

je ne sais pas

I guess people want to balance him out betterer?

All I know is that he doesn't need any more buffs in his current nightly build. Anything he receives from now on should be a tradeoff.

 

[Revven]

Here's the deal:

1) Ness mains, you guys suck chunks at balancing.

2) Ness is broken right now, PK Fire can infinite DDD, DK, and Bowser if you get them inside the main bulk of it. It's ********, I literally had to go WARIO to beat Cape's Ness today, I couldn't go DK AT ALL because of this and some other stupid **** you guys did.

3) Ness's Fair is ******** right now. You guys seem to already know this. Fair combos INTO ITSELF and you cannot escape it with SDI AT ALL. It's freakin' ******** and no matter which way you DI, he can either get Fair or Uair on you...

4) DJC is useless with all these other aerial and projectile buffs you are giving this guy. Either remove it or remove A LOT OF THE BUFFS HE HAS RIGHT NOW.

5) Dthrow shouldn't have guaranteed follow-ups, this includes regrabbing for another Dthrow, Fair, and Nair. He can right now CG heavies and I'm pretty sure FFer's with his current Dthrow. Go back to how it was, it was FINE, it took skill to follow-up from it. It's retardedly good right now.

It's a problem when Cape doesn't even main Ness, plays him the ENTIRE tournament and takes 2nd place. Good job Ness mains, good job.

The thing about Ness right now is he doesn't even have to DJC to win. He can literally wall you with Fair and you can't do **** except attack him from above and guess who can only do that? Wario because of his amazing aerial mobility and ability to camp Ness out better. The point is, if you want DJC to be apart of Ness's game, a lot of these buffs need to be removed or need to be SUBTLE.

Edit: Ness Side B is fixed apparently so we were using the build from YESTERDAY. Sorry.

 

[thesage]

2) Ness is broken right now, PK Fire can infinite DDD, DK, and Bowser if you get them inside the main bulk of it.

Pk fire can be powershielded (while you are being burned in the pillar). I would like the damage it does to be decreased though. I never felt it needed a speed buff. Just that pk fire links better together.

3) Ness's Fair is ******** right now. You guys seem to already know this. Fair combos INTO ITSELF and you cannot escape it with SDI AT ALL. It's freakin' ******** and no matter which way you DI, he can either get Fair or Uair on you...

We're already planning on changing it to combo into aerials besides fair. I would like uair to be changed into a combo move rather than a kill move so that fair uair doesn't become a kill combo. Fair to dair is ok with me though since it takes some sort of skill to do it and can be di'd out of.

4) DJC is useless with all these other aerial and projectile buffs you are giving this guy. Either remove it or remove A LOT OF THE BUFFS HE HAS RIGHT NOW.

Djc isn't in the latest nightly build I think. Any build with djc in it shouldn't being used in tournaments. If you haven't read the last couple of posts, we're (or at least I) am trying to see which buffs should be removed to add in djc.

DJC should be added in to give this game/character some technical depth. Ness has always been one of the more technical characters in smash. I also <3 djc since it gives Ness the option to play as both a floaty and ff'er (dunno if anybody else gets this =/ )

5) Dthrow shouldn't have guaranteed follow-ups, this includes regrabbing for another Dthrow, Fair, and Nair. He can right now CG heavies and I'm pretty sure FFer's with his current Dthrow. Go back to how it was, it was FINE, it took skill to follow-up from it. It's retardedly good right now.

The way it was before people could di away from Ness before Ness finished his animation. At least that's what happened to me. A cg with d-throw has never worked for me vs. Charizard though I never really played vs. heavies that much in the first place. I do know that in a previous build before any d-throw changes that I was able to pull of d-throw to pkt2 due to terrible di from the Charizard.

It's a problem when Cape doesn't even main Ness, plays him the ENTIRE tournament and takes 2nd place. Good job Ness mains, good job.

I probably could do the same thing w/ mk lol.

The thing about Ness right now is he doesn't even have to DJC to win. He can literally wall you with Fair and you can't do **** except attack him from above and guess who can only do that? Wario because of his amazing aerial mobility and ability to camp Ness out better. The point is, if you want DJC to be apart of Ness's game, a lot of these buffs need to be removed or need to be SUBTLE.

We're in the process of doing this. Any build with djc in it should not be being used in tournaments. =/

 

[Revven]

My main point is, a lot of these buffs he has, need to go and the changes he should be getting should be going more towards the use of DJC with some rising aerials mixed in or something. Because the Fair from the build we played, was ridiculous. PKT1 speed-up, kind of dumb... no not kind of, it is stupid. Because I can't punish Ness for missing with PKT1 with a Fsmash.

I mean I know a Ness main should be able to play with either rising aerials or DJC, a choice. But, there shouldn't be all these crazy buffs to these different moves because they have an effect in different match-ups. Like, Ness's PKT1 wind-down could be really amazing on heavies but then be just awful against lightweights (which isn't the case, it's good either way, perhaps a little 2gud). Uair should just flow better overall. I think Ness just needs to lose some buffs we gave him from a long time ago like the Utilt wind-down and mayhaps get rid of the PKT2 speed-up he has I don't know. All I know is, this kid, needs a less **** FAIR in favor of a more diverse aerial game. Hell, I'd argue to not make Dsmash connect now because of the TP it was given.

 

[CountKaiser]

Here's the deal:

1) Ness mains, you guys suck chunks at balancing.

2) Ness is broken right now, PK Fire can infinite DDD, DK, and Bowser if you get them inside the main bulk of it. It's ********, I literally had to go WARIO to beat Cape's Ness today, I couldn't go DK AT ALL because of this and some other stupid **** you guys did.

3) Ness's Fair is ******** right now. You guys seem to already know this. Fair combos INTO ITSELF and you cannot escape it with SDI AT ALL. It's freakin' ******** and no matter which way you DI, he can either get Fair or Uair on you...

4) DJC is useless with all these other aerial and projectile buffs you are giving this guy. Either remove it or remove A LOT OF THE BUFFS HE HAS RIGHT NOW.

5) Dthrow shouldn't have guaranteed follow-ups, this includes regrabbing for another Dthrow, Fair, and Nair. He can right now CG heavies and I'm pretty sure FFer's with his current Dthrow. Go back to how it was, it was FINE, it took skill to follow-up from it. It's retardedly good right now.

It's a problem when Cape doesn't even main Ness, plays him the ENTIRE tournament and takes 2nd place. Good job Ness mains, good job.

The thing about Ness right now is he doesn't even have to DJC to win. He can literally wall you with Fair and you can't do **** except attack him from above and guess who can only do that? Wario because of his amazing aerial mobility and ability to camp Ness out better. The point is, if you want DJC to be apart of Ness's game, a lot of these buffs need to be removed or need to be SUBTLE.

Edit: Ness Side B is fixed apparently so we were using the build from YESTERDAY. Sorry.

1. Thank you for the comment. Which set was this? Mine or Cape's?

2. I mentioned this, and tested this. Apparently PK Fire is fixed now.

3. We know this, I'm trying to fix it by having it send the opponent above and behind ness, ensuring only a bair or uair.

4. I'm in the process of doing that now. I won't mind removing stuff

5. What is wrong with a throw having guaranteed follow-ups dependent on DI? And why are people saying dthrow can CG? IT CAN'T. DI in towards ness, and you should be fine. I've only been able to CG dummies in training mode. There are throws worse than Ness's dthrow that can lead into killers based upon DI(Fox and Falcon say hi).

I'm trying to balance ness now, but no one is saying jack squat about Ness now except PKNintendo. My set has these buffs to ness.


Fair
Weak hit now has 1.0 SDIability, 0.9 hitlag, and uses special angle 365
Strong hit sends at 105 degrees

Yoyos now have transcendent priority

PK Flash 1.5x larger, 25% faster startup, 100% faster cooldown

-Aerial Landing Lag Reduction set to 50%
-Physics adjustments: SH 1.00, Full Hop 1.075, FF to 1.2, Momentum increased to 110%
-Second Jump frames 0 to 2, 2x; gives ness a zap jump ability for recovery
-Dash Attack
-all hitbox size increased by 15%
-entire move speed increased(same as above)
-Down Air
-Small speed increase
-Downsmash
-windup hit, KBG to 0 from 100, BKB to 50 from 0, angle to 270 from 110(Same for usmash)
-swing hit, BKB to 60 from 80, angle to 25 from 55
-Downthrow BKB to 80 from 90
-Dtilt 3 dmg from 4dmg
-Forward Smash
-Tipper hitbox size increased by 25%, only hitbox to cause homerun bat sound
-PSI Magnet
-PSI Magnet comes out on frame 7
-Wind hitbox BKB to 70 from 0, angle 30 from special20, 120% size
-PK Fire
-15% faster startup
-Significantly harder to SDI out on first hit, easier on later hits
-Utilt
-Utilt is 150% faster cooldown
-KBG to 110 from 126, BKB to 55 from 42
Ness can now optionally DJC aerials


I realize all that is a bit much. Fsmash, utilt, PSI Magnet, and PK Fire can all go and be back to vanilla status. More thoughts on this are appreciated.

 

[Revven]

Fair
Weak hit now has 1.0 SDIability, 0.9 hitlag, and uses special angle 365
Strong hit sends at 105 degrees.

See now this is what I'm kind of worried about. The strong hit, from yesterday's build (shanus's) doesn't send anywhere. The angle probably didn't change but if this is the Fair I was playing with today and yesterday then it needs to be tweaked so that the last hit of Fair has higher KB so he can't link another Fair into it stupidly. It looks like the SDIability should be fine but, I have to stress this, if the SDIability was 1.0 in shanus's build it is hard as hell to SDI with the 365 angle, I couldn't escape it for beans as Wario.

 

[CountKaiser]

When Shanus gave me his build to work with, I believe the SDIability was 0.8. I set it back to 1.0 to make it a bit more fair as well as more escapable.

Strong hit, in theory, shouldn't set up for another fair, since it sends up and behind ness. But it probablyu could use more KBG.

And the set you were using couldn't have been my set, as I removed the PKT1 speedup.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

CK i've been using your build.....the forward air is weird but i dont have a problem with it. Are you sure you removed the yoyo speed up? It feels fast still.

The 1.5x pk flash size is dumb tho....if not 2x it should at least be a middle between the two like 1.8x or something. Other than that i guess just the pkt cooldown speedup that should be in there

DjC is nifty, but as far as im concerned it completely removable and should we be looking for things to remove from ness that'd be my first pick

 

[CountKaiser]

I'm certain yoyo speedup was removed.

I don't mind the 2x size, but chances are it will have to be slowed down.

DJC needs to be tested in an actual nightly, for christ's sake. Why are you so against it?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

People said 7/10 was broken....i dont want to sacrifice all kinds of stuff just to put in djc

but yeah...with 1.5x pk flash is too small....can you set it to 1.8x so we can see how that is?

 

[SSBFalco]

So now talks have shifted from giving Ness more buffs to nerfing him some? ...This sure is confusing.

I don't think Ness has anything overpowering at all. It seems like the only real complaint is Fair, but I don't really see anything wrong with it. It shouldn't be ridiculously easy to SDI out of, I mean, Zelda's smashes were fixed to prevent that so I don't see why Ness has to get the short end of the stick here.

 

[thesage]

Fair is seen as op'd since you can Ken combo with it and it's almost guaranteed vs. some characters. It has huge range and doesn't need to be tipped unlike Marth's melee fair. The only part that can be di'd out of is the fair -> dair which then leads into a nair/uair. This overcentralizes Ness game entirely around fair. It's dumb and ********.

Simna: djc should be in. It offers way more depth than pk flash ever could. It also adds some technical skill, which is something brawl+ really needs. Pk flash is an unnecessary buff. You can do the same with u-smash, u-tilt, fair and nair that you can do with the sped up pk flash. All it needs is hte 1.5 size increase. Even that may be scaled down depending on how brawl+'s ledges evolve. Srsly stop it with the pk flash stuff. All I can say is that I do not support any buffs to pk flash besides the 1.5x range increase. TP u-smash and sped up pk flash SHOULD NOT be buffed at the same time. It's either/or.

Pk fire should receive a damage nerf but still hold people in as well as it does now. It's still possible to sdi out of this move. If you can't do that just di up and it forces Ness to hit you with an aerial or aerial pk fire (aerial pk fire should never ever lead to anything if the opponent can di).

My main point is, a lot of these buffs he has, need to go and the changes he should be getting should be going more towards the use of DJC with some rising aerials mixed in or something.

Agreed

Because the Fair from the build we played, was ridiculous.

Blame Shanus. It's supposed to follow up into other aerials rather than fair (which I've mentioned before). It was a test build.

PKT1 speed-up, kind of dumb... no not kind of, it is stupid. Because I can't punish Ness for missing with PKT1 with a Fsmash.

FF-airdodge through pkt1 -> Eat the tailhit -> punish Ness. If he's trying to hit you and you're on the ground shoot a projectile at him. If he's trying to projectile camp you with it shield it or outprioritize it with the move of your choice. I don't care about the pkt1 buff (and I think it should be removed), but saying it's unpunishable is untrue.

Like, Ness's PKT1 wind-down could be really amazing on heavies but then be just awful against lightweights (which isn't the case, it's good either way, perhaps a little 2gud). Uair should just flow better overall.

C above.

Uair should just flow better overall.

Uair has the same frame data from melee actually. The hitbox is just really awkward or something =/. I think it comes out first behind Ness like it did in melee, just that the effect is much more exagerrated in brawl.

It does have wtfrange sometimes though: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=43000

I think Ness just needs to lose some buffs we gave him from a long time ago like the Utilt wind-down and mayhaps get rid of the PKT2 speed-up he has I don't know.

U-tilt has just the right setup to combo into aerials and not into other u-tilts. Leave it.

I don't care about the pkt endlag speedup. I completely agree that you should be able to punish it. Pkt2 still has a noticeable amount of endlag though and is still really easy to punish. I think the speed buff to pkt2's endlag was not directly intended. I could care less if it remained though since it's still punishable so w/e.

All I know is, this kid, needs a less **** FAIR in favor of a more diverse aerial game.

This is what I've been asking for.

Hell, I'd argue to not make Dsmash connect now because of the TP it was given.

Oh god no. It'd never hit then. I'd rather just remove the first hitbox lol. I could care less about the damage it does. It's an edgeguard/edgeguard set up move anyways.

I really wanted to save my commentary for later when I'm actually able to test this stuff out more thoroughly. All I know is that D-throw should not be able to cg. I also know that d-throw doesn't lead to follow ups on certain characters already.

I haven't been able to test out either build since I was having fun learning waveshining (it's a lot easier than I anticipated) so sorry about that. I left my wii back at college (I'm at home for the weekend) so I won't be able to test stuff for some time in brawl+.

Anyways, another option for fair is that we make the weak hits combo into ground moves and the strong hit send people away but Ness cannot follow up from it at all. This would compliment djc way more than shffl though. Fair in melee complimented his sh floaty game.

Ness has the biggest thread yet the least amount of information on how to play him lol.

 

[Magus420]

It's still possible to sdi out of this move.

The 4 damage hit has a 0.00x SDI multiplier, and while the 2 and 1 damage hits have a huge SDI mult of 1.50x that doesn't matter because they don't have hitlag to be able to SDI anyway due to one of the special offensive flags combined with the hitlag code. This will be fixed in the next build (SDI Mult of 0.8x and 2 hitlag/1 frame SDI window).

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

sage why are u comparing pk flash to djc? of course djc would add more depth than pk flash, but who brought that up?? anyway you still completely ignore uncharged pk flash use even tho i've been asked and TOLD many of the things it can do outside of what upsmash/utilt or any other move does....you talk as if all the stuff i mentioned doesnt exist....as if pk flash only does anything charged....like not only are you disregarding the things i've said you are also not even trying to use the move while playing to find out yourself(or you just dont read posts)

anyway what i was saying about DjC: Look at how ness is now.....look at how people think ness is compared to the other characters.....and now we add in djc. DjC is a POWERFUL thing....to add in DjC we would have to remove a good deal of other parts of ness

on another note....completely separate from DjC: PK Flash at 1.5x size is too small.

EDIT: and whats this about Brawl+ needing more tech skill? its tech skill was already increased when the game was made to play faster than vbrawl.....Brawl+ needing more tech skill is untrue

 

[CountKaiser]

So half of shanus' build was his fault(no offense to him), the other half due to inexperience, it seems.

Why were you yelling at us, Falco400?

Simna, while PK Flash onstage would be nice, it only serves as a mixup, and is superfluous to Ness's game at this point. Right now it is fine, please drop it.

Looking at my set, I was considering removing the utilt buff, all Psi Magnet buffs, and the fsmash buff. I was also thinking of raising the KBG on the last hit of fair, and drastically altering uair so that it can combo better and no longer kill. Thoughts?

And Simna, if all you have to contribute is remove DJC for PK Flash or whatever, don't contribute.