Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[shanus]

I don't have a change of heart. I just think its ridiculous to make all this fuss on a PK Flash which is way too big.

 

[CountKaiser]

It isn't way too big, it's actually a manageable size and stays within the graphic of the move. Like I said, my friends were able to get around it easily with some brainpower and maybe an AD or too.

 

[thesage]

Psi magnet spacing is lol against link

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

shanus: before the accidental size decrease you told me that you liked the size of pk flash over aim at the same time you told me that the only reason the speed buffs were removed was because of limited space in the framespeed mod back around 7/21

 

[matt4300]

Psi magnet spacing is lol against link

{insert edge gaurding move here} is lol against link.

 

[shanus]

It isn't way too big, it's actually a manageable size and stays within the graphic of the move. Like I said, my friends were able to get around it easily with some brainpower and maybe an AD or too.

But do you need such a potent and large projectile?

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.


Like seriously, Ness doesn't need *any* help at all right now. Hell, I think Ness might need a few tradeoff nerfs as well (well, its not just me, a bunch of people). You guys don't seem to get this. Just because I said I thought it was good in the past doesn't reinforce your current points at all. Ness play has been refined since that current set and proves to need nothing more to be a very dangerous character.

Like, when I tested 7-10, I first thought it was good until I realized how broken almost all the changes were (the huge fair, etc). Ness play evolved around that and everyone grew to realize how the changes were far overboard. This still applies. Opinions change, especially regarding balance.

So tell me, why do Ness mains still feel Ness needs more help? What tradeoffs would you propose?

 

[thesage]

I think fair is imbalanced. It gets like 40 damage just from fair combos on most characters that are not Falcon, Fox, Zelda, or Falco. Everybody else it's really gay and vs. those chars he has barely any combos (besides Falcon and Fox).

Fair should be retooled so it's just not so lol. Maybe the size decrease will make it more balanced.

Maybe just make djc uair the combo machine fair is now so it actually takes some skill and make fair a gtfo move.... =/

 

[Lil'E]

What tradeoffs would you propose?

Remove the SA on magnet.
Give the wind more strength, Give 2x Pk Flash, or No helpless state after PK Thunder(not multiple). srsly

But thats just me. Also no one ever addressed the dtilt unnecessary nerf but its not that important.

lolwut smash journeyman

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that we should just settle with the 1.5X flash. 2.0X really is unneeded, it's just a nice thing that could be added. Anyways at 1.5X most of the same PK Flash tactics will still work.

 

[Alphatron]

I think 2x PK Flash is alright, but I don't mind the size nerf at all really. PK Flash is already good for edgeguarding, and it's not like this is vbrawl size.

 

[thesage]

I really think Fair needs a nerf in how much it combos some characters. It wtfrapes charizard with little to no skill... It also invalidates djc since fair is just way easier to combo with. Fair needs to combo less.

PK flash will be buffed inmmensely when the ledgegrab range is reduced since that's what made it so useless in vbrawl. Same with d-smash.

When I mentioned Psi magnet vs. link, I was talking about onstage applications lol. The wind effect is fine and needs no changing.

I think what the wbr is designing is a character that can approach well, decent combos, and can ok camp, but gets wtfraped by combos and lolrecovery.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that with lower edge grab range Ness will have a worse recovery than Olimar lol.

Think about it though, tether characters are affected by the grab range less than anyone else, and Ness is going to get even more gimp ***** by it.

Not saying that thats a bad thing however.

 

[thesage]

Pkt2 is already mad easy to gimp so meh. Plus there's the code that makes wallbouncing/wallriding possible or something.

 

[CountKaiser]

Personally, I'd have PK Flash as the 7/10 set in exchange for the entirety of Psi Magnet, but that's me.

 

[shanus]

So, people would like to see the entire wind push gone? I already removed the SA

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Fair is pretty ridiculous for comboing into itself. With such little lag and its huge size, all his aerials other than fair and uair become nearly useless onstage.

PK Flash buff is a rather pointless addition to his game, in my opinion. It being as big as it was made it bigger than the actual animation, and led to some pretty ******** kills because it had invisible Snake range. He's get better strengths to be looked at if need be.

PSI Magnet is just awesome. Nothing more to be said.

EDIT:

I'd actually fight to keep PSI Magnet as is, Shanus. The move is a very unique take on a reflector esque move, and is actually a greatly balanced move in my opinion.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Psimagnet should keep it's wind, I'm fine with no SA though.

So nerf fair, take out magnet SA, and what else for nerfs to go along with the buffs?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

What buffs are being argued here? The PK Flash size and speed increase?

Because if the ledgegrab range is being lowered, that move will become a broken edgeguard at 2x size.

Not to mention it's a boring buff that doesn't suit the character as he already has tools to deal with anything PK Flash can better than PK Flash.

 

[shanus]

Well, don't forget DJC.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

DJC, definitely sounds interesting.

But how about we change the angle on the dthrow to remove the "get chainggrabbed or get free uair juggled" part of it instead?

Actually, I'd suggest doing that regardless. >.>

 

[Mattnumbers]

Dthrow does not chaingrab.

And the reason they want PK Flash bigger is for uncharged PK Flash not edgeguarding.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

In the matches I played with Cape recently, I chaingrabbed a fair number of his characters. Basically, his options boiled down to being a short hop distance above Ness, getting CGed, or being around an SH's distance in front of Ness assuming he couldn't be CGed. All very, very bad places to be when fighting Ness.

It's no vBrawl Dedede, but it needs tweaked in my opinion.



And uncharged PK Flash at 2x sped up would be a decent move, but it won't handle anything Ness can't handle already. It's pointless as far as I can see.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

things i wouldnt care to lose for 7/10 pk flash:

-DjC
-upsmash buffs
-DjC


And a hitbox extending outside its animation is nothing new.....a bunch of moves do that...like Din's Fire fire instance. It is also completely possible to defend against 7/10 pk flash. I'm convinced the people who say its broken aren't good at this game and the ppl who say it isnt useful are refusing to even try


but really.....i say lose DjC....heaven forbid we make DjC into something good....then ness would really be overpowered.....I think a few people working on B+ may not realize the can of worms they are opening when they give DjC to a character

 

[PKNintendo]

Well to me, I don't see how PK Flash 2X is worth the DJC, the wind AND refined yo-yo's.

I say we bit of more than what we could chew. Nerf FAIR?
You guys should fix it but not the range.

Also I'm glad with the speed and size boosts.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

7/10 PK Flash was useful. But uncharged PK Flash wasn't as amazingly useful as you seem to think it was. Edgeguarding was good. Uncharged was okay. But it didn't do anything that Ness couldn't already do, and it didn't really help his game all that much besides skewing a few matchups that had bad recoveries.

Though it did look fairly bad *** to make someone spontaniously explode with MIND POWERS. I'll give you that.

 

[PKNintendo]

Indeed.

The new PK flash can still do that right?
(Uncharged blast)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yes, DjC would require further nerfs depending on how good it is. It's worth it since it adds more skill to playing Ness.

And really, any tactics you can do with X2 PK Flash you can probably also do with X1.5 PK Flash, it's just a bit harder to land it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I could honestly do without DJC, but I'm open to trying it. More useful than 2x PK Flash, anyway.

 

[SSBFalco]

Personally, I would gladly give up the wind effect on PSI Magnet in exchange for 2x PK Flash.

Matt said that we can probably do whatever 2x PK Flash can do, which I somewhat agree with, it's just that PSI Magnet is the exact same. Ness already had options to what PSI Magnet can do, and 2x PK Flash was just much more useful in general.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

PSI Magnet has super armor and pushes back FLUDD style in addition to being the only move in the game that heals you, sans G&W's 7 hammer. If you can't find a use for that thing, I really don't know what to say.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Magnet can't push people with wind without a wind effect
PK Flash can still be used uncharged or as an edgeguard at X1.5 size

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Magnet can't push people with wind without a wind effect
PK Flash can still be used uncharged or as an edgeguard at X1.5 size

...?

Yeah, that's what I'm arguing to keep (magnet). They're both fairly useless without the buffs. Sans PK Flash as the situational edgeguard.

 

[Mattnumbers]

...?

Yeah, that's what I'm arguing to keep (magnet). They're both fairly useless without the buffs. Sans PK Flash as the situational edgeguard.

I was talking to SSBFalco, not you. He said that Magnet can still be used the same ways if it doesn't have a wind effect.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ah. My bad.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

PKNintendo: no one brought up giving up all of those things....It sounded to me like giving up one of those things, but not all of them.

Tatsuman: Ness doesnt need upsmash because utilt already does what upsmash does....right? A few posts ago I went thru how uncharged pk flash is incredibly different and has different use than like any other move on ness and any character in any smash game for that matter. It is very useful. The SA on PSI Magnet has already been removed in exchange for a faster startup. Also, healing is not a very powerful asset...its nice yes, but for one it only heals from energy projectiles and on top of that landing a hit on your opponent will always be tactically superior to lowering your own damage.

Matt2358: To some extent yes, but the percent ranges would be smaller and it wouldnt hit as low to the ground making it less useful on more characters...and as you can see many people are already having a problem with 7/10 pk flash not being worth it.....making it even less than that is bogus.

and really DjC is not worth the stack of nerfs it would take to justify it....it already is giving us the option to CHOOSE whether or not we want to use a djc.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I disagree. Both moves are popups, but have different applications. Usmash is disjointed, but slow on the startup. Safer on the block as well, but neither are safe from shield distance. Usmash also does more damage and pops up slightly lower if I remember right. So usmash is better as a long range mixup or shieldstab, and the utilt is better out of a dodge or other close punishment.

I'd actually like the super armor better, as it makes the move an overall better move. Takes some skill to use correctly, and it makes the character more fun without actually adding much. The threat of healing yourself is more valuable against a projectile character than the actual healing. But having the option isn't a bad thing, especially in teams.

I'd also say we should try the DJC before writing it off, but I'm honestly fine with Ness as is in 8/15 with maybe a few tweaks. Namely dthrow.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

@your first paragraph: Then you understand? PK Flash works much differently than both of those moves.

@second: the threat of healing is not a big one....the amount you heal is not that much and the healing use of psi magnet is completely defensive which means you have to either use it as a prediction or as a reaction. Characters with fast projectiles will easily be able to stop your healing....because they are leading and you are following. They don't have to be firing at you from a great distance....they can maneuver at close range but just outside the range of your attacks. Don't get me wrong....PSI Magnet is definitely not as bad as it could be...in fact its not really "bad" at all right now...I'm just comparing the value of a healing move to the value of a damaging move.

 

[thesage]

Tatsuman, your opponents need to learn how to di the d-throw. There's no character he has a cg on with good di I think. What characters was cape playing as? I mean I can barely get d-throw to combo on falco with good di... He's usually on the ground before Ness can act again...

Only reason I want djc is for more tech skill lol

I too think fair is op'd and overcentralizes Ness' game and should just set up juggles or be a gtfo move that does damage. I've been wanting this forever but nobody listens to me lol. Uair should be the combo move... and should be changed to work well with djc.

1.5 pk flash with reduced ledgegrab range is fine that's what I heard is happening so yea...

Psi magnet wind effect should stay. It's really unique and cool and balanced.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

reduced ledgegrab range has no effect on uncharged pk flash

and didnt shanus say something earlier about fair being reduced back to 1x size?

 

[PKNintendo]

Yes.

Anywho, I things are fine the way it is.

PK Flash is at 1.5, Wind is faster, Yo-yo's rock AND DJC!!!