Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Corigames]

Yeah, if you took exactly what I say and apply it to everything, you will look ********. It's generally accepted that the Earth is round, England does exist, the Moon is tangible, etc. Even if we don't know first hand, we can use what research has found and use that knowledge. I still stand by the fact that we can't know, but you should at least accept it as general fact. If you can't do that, you end up being a conspiracy theorist... or killing yourself.

You can study everything about Melee, but you can't know until you play it. It also helps you understand how it works if you play too! If someone tells me that I can drop a bomb, FF and then Screw Attack into it and cancel it... I don't know about it. That may work, but I'll have questions. If they make a video of it, I'll believe them. I'll try to do it myself too, of course, and make a final judgment. By using my experience with Samus, Melee, and Video Games, I know it would be hard to do if possible at all. However, there are people with no experience with Samus and they would make the assumption that that person is right. They didn't test it, they don't have the experience, and they don't mind telling everyone that it is a fact.

Same for everything else! You can't just look at Melee's tier list and know everything about it, but people do that and it blows my mind. They see a video of M2K's Marth and think they've got everything down. It's very annoying.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It kinda reminds me of something that people used to say about the Marth vs Link matchup.
That marth could use his sword ot block Link's projectiles.

Yet while Marth can do so when you look at the videos you don't see marth batting away Link's projectiles .
While it can be done the actual application of the said strategy/move is what matters most.

Poor example but I am too tired to come up with anything better.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Many of Brawl's ATs are character specific. Bowser's infinite grab technique. Pikachu's QAC version of ISJR. Snakes mortar slide. The space animal's use of the sliding walk (even the level 9 computers use this). Ice Climber Desyncs. There's five practical ATs for you.

EDIT: Sorry about the post location. I was looking at an earlier page when I wrote this.

 

[gantrain05]

Many of Brawl's ATs are character specific. Bowser's infinite grab technique. Pikachu's QAC version of ISJR. Snakes mortar slide. The space animal's use of the sliding walk (even the level 9 computers use this). Ice Climber Desyncs. There's five practical ATs for you.

EDIT: Sorry about the post location. I was looking at an earlier page when I wrote this.

yeah, this is exactly what im starting to think about brawl, it actually kinda helps each character play out differently than melee, in my experience with melee it was kind of like everyone fought the same way with wavedashing, dashdancing etc and it kind of made it feel the same to me, i mean, there were huge differences in characters, but the way they are played felt the same to me, but in brawl i guess its character specific which brings some diversity to the cast of characters.

 

[Yuna]

RDK, he never said you did. He was merely switching back to "On Topic"-mode. You're both on the same side, don't start any unnecessary fights.

yeah, this is exactly what im starting to think about brawl, it actually kinda helps each character play out differently than melee, in my experience with melee it was kind of like everyone fought the same way with wavedashing, dashdancing etc and it kind of made it feel the same to me, i mean, there were huge differences in characters, but the way they are played felt the same to me, but in brawl i guess its character specific which brings some diversity to the cast of characters.

Different = Automatically better.

"Brawl is different!" - Yeah, so what? How does this prove it's more balanced?

 

[ShadowLink84]

What Yuna said.
So the characters are different, do the AT's help balance them out?
They do not, not at all.

 

[RDK]

Many of Brawl's ATs are character specific. Bowser's infinite grab technique. Pikachu's QAC version of ISJR. Snakes mortar slide. The space animal's use of the sliding walk (even the level 9 computers use this). Ice Climber Desyncs. There's five practical ATs for you.

EDIT: Sorry about the post location. I was looking at an earlier page when I wrote this.

The fact that most of the character-specific AT's are exclusive to characters that are already good (or the best) doesn't help.

Besides, Melee had character-specific AT's too, and a lot more than Brawl has right now.

Also, my bad @ Coreygames.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I honestly do not know if the ATs balance the characters out or not. Bowser and Ice Climbers are absolutely helped by the character specific ATs, and the space animals benefit, but very few people are affluent with the new ATs to know exactly what they mean for their respective character's metagame balance.

However, the primary factor in discovering ATs so far have involved character popularity inspiring an investigation into their most unusual abilities, and the obviousness of the AT as in the case of the Ice Climbers where there are obviously ATs to be found and Fox where the computers showed the AT to you.

 

[Yuna]

I honestly do not know if the ATs balance the characters out or not. Bowser and Ice Climbers are absolutely helped by the character specific ATs, and the space animals benefit, but very few people are affluent with the new ATs to know exactly what they mean for their respective character's metagame balance.

I hear this all time... and no one manages to back it up. What character-specific ATs would these be? Klaw Canceling? Umm... yeah.

Flashy? Yes. Fun? Yes. ZOMG-So-Good-Teh-Koopa-Skips-Up-Two-Tiers? Not at all. It can only be done above ground (more specifically, he has to actually quasi-land on ground to do it), it can only be done with Koopa Klaw and Bowser's so friggin slow anyway that it's not like Koopa Klaw magically becomes 100% safe because of it since he has to, you know, jump and his jump is slower than the average characters', thus allowing his opponent more frames to shielddrop jab/tilt/smash.

Useful, yah. "Absolutely helped"? Umm... hardly. Especially not when you pit him against those who are High Tier already without character specific ATs... like Snake and, um, Snake Dashing. Thus, a game having more character-specific ATs (or even just Ts) does not automatically mean more balance.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I am not sure we are on the same page Yuna. My understanding of Bowsers chain grab (not throw) was that if done correctly, the other person is unable to react. Mind you, I am not a Bowser main.

Is this what you are refering to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch_UreOgveo

 

[gantrain05]

well i can see how it brings some more balance to the game, honestly if u think melee was more balanced than brawl u gotta be crazy, pretty much every AT in melee everyone could use, so that didn't make any lower tiers any more special, it was just like ZOMG BOWSER CAN WAVEDASH.....so what? so can shiek, but she will still walk all over him. at least with character specific AT's it forces people into different playstyles with characters so that its not the same old stale waveshine > Usmash like melee was.

 

[ShadowLink84]

well i can see how it brings some more balance to the game, honestly if u think melee was more balanced than brawl u gotta be crazy, pretty much every AT in melee everyone could use, so that didn't make any lower tiers any more special, it was just like ZOMG BOWSER CAN WAVEDASH.....so what? so can shiek, but she will still walk all over him. at least with character specific AT's it forces people into different playstyles with characters so that its not the same old stale waveshine > Usmash like melee was.

Obviously you know incredibly little about melee.

The fact that the AT's were universal is what helped balance the game.
L canceling being one of the best because now, Bowser had a faster method of approaching and thereby limited how easily camped he would be.

Same thing for Ganaondorf, Link and every other character.

Yes it made the great characters even better but it made the poor characters good and made them competitively viable.

Everyone can DAC in the game but none of them can say that its as effective as Link's and Snake's.

Big deal its making people play the characters differently the same thing occurred in melee.
The fact that Snake and Olimar camp and bait people to death hasn't changed.

Sonic can spinshot to get a great method of aerial mobility but Bowser can't and Ganondorf can't nor can Link. And those characters get ***** upclose because they are simply too slow to do much to an opponent that is faster than them. they cannot approach well.

Link at least has DAC but thats it and even DAC isn't enough to help his offensive game so he is stuck being defensive.

Snake's DAC is very rarely used for offense, he is still a very defensive character and DAC improves his defensive game as well.

Pit has 20+ USELESS AT's.
Now go away because obviously you never played melee or you wouldn't make such a poor argument for Brawl.

Melee is unbalanced, but Brawl is even more unbalanced.

 

[gantrain05]

Obviously you know incredibly little about melee.

The fact that the AT's were universal is what helped balance the game.
L canceling being one of the best because now, Bowser had a faster method of approaching and thereby limited how easily camped he would be.

Same thing for Ganaondorf, Link and every other character.

Yes it made the great characters even better but it made the poor characters good and made them competitively viable.

Everyone can DAC in the game but none of them can say that its as effective as Link's and Snake's.

Big deal its making people play the characters differently the same thing occurred in melee.
The fact that Snake and Olimar camp and bait people to death hasn't changed.

Sonic can spinshot to get a great method of aerial mobility but Bowser can't and Ganondorf can't nor can Link. And those characters get ***** upclose because they are simply too slow to do much to an opponent that is faster than them. they cannot approach well.

Link at least has DAC but thats it and even DAC isn't enough to help his offensive game so he is stuck being defensive.

Snake's DAC is very rarely used for offense, he is still a very defensive character and DAC improves his defensive game as well.

Pit has 20+ USELESS AT's.
Now go away because obviously you never played melee or you wouldn't make such a poor argument for Brawl.

Melee is unbalanced, but Brawl is even more unbalanced.

you sir, are not intelligent, melee was incredibly unbalanced, ESPECIALLY at the pro level, thats why it was the same characters winning every single time, sure in brawl snake and MK win alot, but even bowser, YES BOWSER, did have a chance to beat them. and as more people learn more about the game it will change, u will see.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

you sir, are not intelligent, melee was incredibly unbalanced, ESPECIALLY at the pro level, thats why it was the same characters winning every single time, sure in brawl snake and MK win alot, but even bowser, YES BOWSER, did have a chance to beat them. and as more people learn more about the game it will change, u will see.

Check my vid. Bowser is not terrible.

I am not sure we are on the same page Yuna. My understanding of Bowsers chain grab (not throw) was that if done correctly, the other person is unable to react. Mind you, I am not a Bowser main.

Is this what you are refering to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch_UreOgveo

Melee's "balance" stems entirely from it universal ATs. While these give all the characters aspects at which they are equal competitors, it does not change the fact that Pichu is not as good a character as Pikachu. Almost the entire "Melee is balanced" arguement seems to stem from the ability of all characters to do ATs almost equally effectively as any other character in melee, highlighting the similarities among the cast, while somewhat ignoring their dramatic differences.

Even though melee is most likely more balanced than Brawl, it stems primarily from the characters all having similar abilities in the form of ATs, rather than unique abilities which vary from character to character.

Before I am flamed for this, I am aware that the timing and range for wavedashing is different for all characters, even clones. However, this, L-canceling, dashdancing, etc. were universal elements which leveled melee's playing field by making all the characters possess common, enhancing attributes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

you sir, are not intelligent,

Someone who cannot read properly probably should not go about calling people unintelligent.

melee was incredibly unbalanced,

Go read my above sentences.

ESPECIALLY at the pro level,

What do you think I am speaking about?

However melee while unbalanced is not as unbalanced as Brawl.
Refer to the video in which aniki beat ken's Marth.
He has done that repeatedly.

thats why it was the same characters winning every single time, sure in brawl snake and MK win alot, but even bowser, YES BOWSER, did have a chance to beat them.

Bowser does have a chance at winning, however that only occurs when the opponent is not as skilled or simply is not familiar with Bowser and therefore was surprised.

Either Bowser faced Snake/MK who were unskilled, the tournament wasn't seeded properly and therefore all the high level snake/MK's eliminated each other early.

Or and you'll love this
He got lucky.
It happens.
Guess what happened afterwards, ROB beat that Bowser and won the tournament. Overswarm was the ROB to be exact.

Everyone has a chance to beat someone in Brawl, but the fact of the matter is that its a very very very small chance of Bowser winning.

Bowser had a better chance of winning in melee than in brawl and that is a fact you cannot deny.

and as more people learn more about the game it will change, u will see.

Oh I have no doubt it'll change, but Bowser still sucks *** and won't be placing very well in tournaments other than those very rare wins.

 

[Yuna]

I am not sure we are on the same page Yuna. My understanding of Bowsers chain grab (not throw) was that if done correctly, the other person is unable to react. Mind you, I am not a Bowser main.

Is this what you are refering to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch_UreOgveo

I'm waiting for further research on that subject befor reserving judgment. Anyone remember how people thought 7 characters could infinite Ness and Lucas way back when it was first discovered? Yeah...

 

[Fawriel]

you sir, are not intelligent, melee was incredibly unbalanced, ESPECIALLY at the pro level, thats why it was the same characters winning every single time, sure in brawl snake and MK win alot, but even bowser, YES BOWSER, did have a chance to beat them. and as more people learn more about the game it will change, u will see.

Sarcastically calling people "sir" is so five minutes ago.


I'll illustrate for you how you are wrong.

Melee:
Ganondorf: Landing lag ~= 16
Fox: Landing lag ~= 2

L-Canceled:
Ganondorf: ~= 8
Fox: ~= 1

Brawl:
Ganondorf: Landing lag ~= 25
Metaknight: Landing lag ~= 2

L-Canceled:
N/A

 

[Zankoku]

It was actually more like 25 -> 12 for Ganon and 15 -> 7 for Fox, but pretty much.

 

[Redson]

Someone who cannot read properly probably should not go about calling people unintelligent.



Go read my above sentences.


What do you think I am speaking about?

However melee while unbalanced is not as unbalanced as Brawl.
Refer to the video in which aniki beat ken's Marth.
He has done that repeatedly.


Bowser does have a chance at winning, however that only occurs when the opponent is not as skilled or simply is not familiar with Bowser and therefore was surprised.

Either Bowser faced Snake/MK who were unskilled, the tournament wasn't seeded properly and therefore all the high level snake/MK's eliminated each other early.

Or and you'll love this
He got lucky.
It happens.
Guess what happened afterwards, ROB beat that Bowser and won the tournament. Overswarm was the ROB to be exact.

Everyone has a chance to beat someone in Brawl, but the fact of the matter is that its a very very very small chance of Bowser winning.

Bowser had a better chance of winning in melee than in brawl and that is a fact you cannot deny.

Oh I have no doubt it'll change, but Bowser still sucks *** and won't be placing very well in tournaments other than those very rare wins.

So Shadowlink, what you're saying is that it doesn't matter how much skill a player has, and that all that matters is the character usage?

Thats ridiculous, sorry. But I can't take that opinion seriously. You say that it would be impossible for someone skilled as Bowser to beat someone playing as Snake or Metaknight, unless the S/MK player were "Unskilled" or "Caught by surprise"? Sorry, but thats complete and utter bullhonkey.

"Bowser still sucks *** and won't be placing very well in tournaments other than those few very rare wins" Excuse me, but if Bowser sucks SO MUCH ***, then why was he able to place high in the first place? No character is crap, Shadowlink. It all depends on the players skill level and ability to adapt with a situation.

 

[Zankoku]

There are crap characters compared to the better characters in the cast. It's how all these games work.

 

[Vyse]

you sir, are not intelligent, melee was incredibly unbalanced, ESPECIALLY at the pro level, thats why it was the same characters winning every single time

I don't mean to burst your bubble. But The same is true with Brawl.

*pop*

 

[EvolveOrDie]

1st paragraph:
I would actually look down on you if you read all 157 of this thread. I can't see any reason why someone would do tat to themselves.

2nd paragraph:
You basically said, "Stop bashing Brawl or go away. You being a jerk towards it doesn't help anyone."

3rd paragraph:
Mindgames do exist. When you say, "He uses his knowledge of my predictions to lay a trap and I take the bait to fool him into thinking me the rat after cheese when I'm really the cat with claws," I think you have reached the pure definition of what a mindgame is.

And please, what did most of this have to do with the discussion? The first part seemed at least relevant, but the rest of it was just a complaint about how to define mindgames. It's like you started heading somewhere, then started again, but the two roads never met. Are you going to continue on to say mindgames don't exist to the point that we shouldn't use their application to compare the two games or what?

In the end, seeing a wide vocabulary is refreshing. At least it isn't like half the rubbish that shows up on the boards where someone types something for three seconds and I half to spend the next half our decrypting their 1337/IM/Short-hand/ebonics/4chan/lolcat speech. It's so frustrating.

For the second paragraph if it sounded like I was saying stop bashing brawl, I would like to apologize. I just wanted to say that until we get all that concrete data that alot of people are trying to compile about the game that would could withhold on a majority of the overall is the game balanced. As for character to character interaction and whether it's all balanced could be debated because even though the metagame is changing it's not likely to stop changing anytime soon (I could be wrong about this).

I know mindgames exist but that paragraph got off tangent a bit. I was meant to respond to some of the comments about where are brawls mindgames; when the way real mindgames work is a mental battle with your opponent which varies from match to match. I think when we start to look at it that way we could say where the lack of AT's or whatever you want to call them affect how well you can fool your opponent.

Oh and thank you about my vocabulary I try to stay coherent and at least logical to myself. Though I did type the last post at 10 in the morning before I went to slept so that could be why it went so gloriously off tangent and in regards to me saying there aren't mindgames it's one of those things I do where I say something doesn't exist but then define it. For me that sort of balances it out because if I can breakdown it's components I can accurately describe it, so what I was trying to say is mindgames aren't any one technique but rather a intricate part of the metagame.

Next post I'll try to be more on topic I promise.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

There are good characters, bad characters, and hype. Often, a good character is made good by the hype behind him. For example, Mario does better in tournaments in Japan and Wario, despite how we in America view the two. There is a lot of "Captain Falcon's the worst character" hype, which is liable to get good Brawlers losing matches they shouldn't out of underestimation. There is a lot of MK and Snake are god's hype, in spite of Falco's potential (once again thanking japan) who is doing more averagely here in America. Right now, the hype behind good characters is huge, as well as the negative hype against Yoshi and Captain Falcon. Currently, as character viability is different from culture to culture, it is hard to gauge the characters without bias. However, Captain Falcon will probably never be godly, and Snake will never be terrible.

 

[Bomber7]

Ok yes i can agress that some characters may be some what bad, but from gameplay experience, I control the character, not the character controling me. What I mean is that, in Brawl when i choose a character reguardless whether or not i know who my opponent is, my game is not set as to whether or not I win. Even so you could find very few if not any situations where the character would determine the match.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So Shadowlink, what you're saying is that it doesn't matter how much skill a player has, and that all that matters is the character usage?

No as such the rest of your paragraph is meaningless.
However I will say that there are really bad matchups that no matter how skilled you are if the opponent is even above average you will lose.

Thats ridiculous, sorry. But I can't take that opinion seriously. You say that it would be impossible for someone skilled as Bowser to beat someone playing as Snake or Metaknight, unless the S/MK player were "Unskilled" or "Caught by surprise"? Sorry, but thats complete and utter bullhonkey.

Really?
Go out and try it yourself.
Go and face M2K with Bowser.
In act have gimpyfish give you his opinion on that matchup.

"Bowser still sucks *** and won't be placing very well in tournaments other than those few very rare wins" Excuse me, but if Bowser sucks SO MUCH ***, then why was he able to place high in the first place?

You're asking a question I already answered.
Not only that how often has Bowser gotten that high up?

23 Bowser (1 top8, 1 top2)

and MK and Snake?

S Rank (378-?? pts) <Uber>
1 Snake (16 top8, 15 top4, 7 top2, 10 wins) - 679.55625
2 Meta Knight (15 top8, 10 top4, 11 top2, 6 wins) - 468.64375

Yeah he can win but the chances of it occurring are very low.

No character is crap, Shadowlink. It all depends on the players skill level and ability to adapt with a situation.

Go play with Captain Falcon in a tourney. Tell me how well you do please. Then tell me that statement.


Yes you can wi with any character.
However depending on who you are the chances of winning will rise and fall
Mainly ebcause matchups ahve a greater impact.
A snake can beat a DK, ROB.

Sonic could beat Luigi and MK.
Link could beat Marth and Fox.

However those are matchups that are largely against your favor and more often than not you would lose. Mainly because unlike melee, all the characters vary in terms of punishment greatly.
If I am Link at most I can do 37% on a MK for a mistake. And thats only possible at 0%

however is ability to punish me and keep me off the edge while rakcing up damage outweighs anything I can do.

Maybe in melee if I were Link I could link a 50% combo.

However, there really isn't much to help a character out.
Unless the disadvantage is a soft one like 60:40, you're going to have a much harder time than you would have had in melee.
Since in melee, even if it were 80:20, you still had a chance of winning, your counters werne't going to hit you as hard.

yes playstyles and skill matter. But at a pro level where both players are at a high skill level if you are facing a hard counter you will most likely lose.

And sadly even soft counters are harsher this time.

 

[Yuna]

Ok yes i can agress that some characters may be some what bad, but from gameplay experience, I control the character, not the character controling me. What I mean is that, in Brawl when i choose a character reguardless whether or not i know who my opponent is, my game is not set as to whether or not I win. Even so you could find very few if not any situations where the character would determine the match.

How does this not apply to Melee or any other videogame out there? This is in no way proof of anything.

Redson: I'm so sick and tired of the "You can adapt!"-argument. So what if your Captain Falcon can "adapt" to try to overcome is inane attributes against my Zelda? What makes you think I won't adapt? No matter how much you "adapt", some characters just have huge flaws and have to work a lot harder than others.

"I can adapt!" - Well, so can your opponent.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why is it everyone thinks Captain Falcon is the worst character in Brawl? Sure he was gimped, but the icon for all that is bad? How did Captain Falcon take the "worst character ever" title from Jigglypuff?

 

[Yuna]

Why is it everyone thinks Captain Falcon is the worst character in Brawl? Sure he was gimped, but the icon for all that is bad? How did Captain Falcon take the "worst character ever" title from Jigglypuff?

Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Yoshi are generally speaking in the running for the Bottom Tier of Brawl. People disagree on who's better, but it usually doesn't matter which one you pick since they're all bad.

 

[fkacyan]

Why is it everyone thinks Captain Falcon is the worst character in Brawl? Sure he was gimped, but the icon for all that is bad? How did Captain Falcon take the "worst character ever" title from Jigglypuff?

You clearly did not play Melee if you actually think Jiggs was the worst there.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I know melee jiggs was good.

However, nobody likes Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff hit a whopping 3 fans on Samurai Panda's character poll, last I checked. Jigglypuff was always the "ha ha, you got beat by a Jigglypuff" character, ever since SSB64.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you got ***** by a jigglypuff it was never haha.

Only people that did the whole haha thing were idiots to begin with *nod nod*

 

[The Halloween Captain]

In my experience, half the fun a Jigglypuff mainer gets out of his character is pwning noobs that think Jiggs is pathetic. Its pink, its a puffball, and it makes Kirby look like Captain Falcon. And yet, it pwns.

 

[Frozenwave]

Its cause you obviously played with people who have never seen a community before

 

[Zankoku]

In my experience, half the feelings of winning against a Jigglypuff main were made up of relief. The other half was reseved for "oh thank god I finally won."

Nobody goes into a match against a Jiggs thinking it'll be an easy win.

 

[Silent Wolf]

My bad SW I'm not at all putting you down so don't take it personally or anything. Luigi is by no means a bad character and has a pretty good matchup against Fox but this is all to my point, as well as most people's points that Melee is pretty well balanced and every character is tournament viable to some degree. Thats my real point here.

Brawl Fox would probably own Brawl Luigi and Fox isn't even that high on the tier list. (Honestly, I don't know for sure since I'm not keeping up with Fox/Luigi's matchups.)

The Melee tier list is off because all the Characters have great potential depending who's playing them. Universal ATs, Mechanics that allow for mindgames, combos, the ability to not have to Wall/Ceiling KO everyone in order to take a stock lol, etc let dedicated smashers play anyone competitively.
The predictive Brawl tier lists is all off since its hard to decide which characters get owned in what order. jk but sorta.

Lastly, no one has given me any mindgames for Brawl which is supposedly "focused" on them. I asked this earlier either in this thread or the Brawl will have Backwards Progression thread. Can someone at least try to give me a legitimate example. I see no great potential for Mindgames in Brawl.

I'm not saying that because I used to lose to Ka-Master's Luigi as Fox, I'm saying that because Luigi is really good. It doesn't take Ka-Master to prove that.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Melee Jiggs was my favorite and least favorite character in the game. I hated Jiggs because she was so hard to fight against, and I loved jiggs because...she was so hard to fight against. Jiggs was one of the most annoying and difficult battles for me to play against, but I actually liked the challenge of fighting one.

So even though I hated Jiggly's guts, I was disappointed to discover that she had been nerfed.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No one would have ever considered Jigglypuff a threat when SSB64 first came out. She just does not look intimidating until you realize what she can do.

The only way jiggs could have ever developed tactically is if someone decided to main her, and get really good at it. There are not very many reasons to main her. In Japan, she is popular (never understood that). In America, Jiggs was always considered a joke character among the lower levels of play. Was she even tourney viable before King used her for all those WOPs?

 

[Zankoku]

...The hell? Do you live solely off of Youtube and your tiny little community of casual gaming friends when you make these nonsensical conclusions about the competitive Smash metagame?

 

[Frozenwave]

Unrelated

SIlent Wolf I love your sigs 1000 damage Tomoyo kick!

Ankoku, he probably does - Also what part of US you in? might have some good delay melty with you :V

 

[The Halloween Captain]

...The hell? Do you live solely off of Youtube and your tiny little community of casual gaming friends when you make these nonsensical conclusions about the competitive Smash metagame?

Was she tourney viable before King started using her in tourneys?