While The King contributed to the Jigglypuff community and Smash community in general in a large way, Jigglypuff was seen as one of the upper mid-tiers as early as 2003, a full year before The King became widely known.
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
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Frozenwave
Smash Ace
I dont know when King started using her, but FUzzyness back here in UK used to be a good Jiggs then he...goes random
Ankoku where abouts in US you live?
Ankoku where abouts in US you live?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Ankoku is your avatar and sig from venus vs virus? I can't remember the exact name.
That is the name of the series, yes.
Frozenwave: Michigan.
Frozenwave: Michigan.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
EC WC or Central? If its EC wanna play some Meltan? :3
Midwest, which is kinda central-ish.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Bah both of you live too far away from me.
Move to the east coast or something.
Move to the east coast or something.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
D: that sucks gonna get delay 6 or 7 which is pure chaos x_x
Im UK so HAH! EUROPE WINS! EU gets like delay5 to EC which is playable though
Im UK so HAH! EUROPE WINS! EU gets like delay5 to EC which is playable though
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Delay 6? Delay 7?
Delay 5?
I am so confused...
Delay 5?
I am so confused...
Melty Blood's netplay hack picks a delay value between 1 and 10. Delay 1 is like... 5ms lag, while Delay 5 is something like 100ms? I'm not sure... Anyway, Delay up to 3 is barely noticeable, Delay 7 is pretty terrible, and Delay 10 is Melty Blood Nintendo Wifi.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
Melty Blood online stuff, its like how much the inputs lag after you actually input it, and brawl is like delay 50 from the same country lololol
Nah brawl is delay 50 or 30, it takes a good half second for my jumps to come out on brawl wifi, and melty is 60fps x_x
Nah brawl is delay 50 or 30, it takes a good half second for my jumps to come out on brawl wifi, and melty is 60fps x_x
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Brawl is 60fps as well and you are right brawl is typicall 30-50 depending on whom you face.
I had one nice battle where there was hardly any lag.
Hmm I need to get my hands on a copy of melty blood. It seems so interesting.
I had one nice battle where there was hardly any lag.
Hmm I need to get my hands on a copy of melty blood. It seems so interesting.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
Even when their in the same country it feels like 30 delay D: its just completely terrible
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I don't really have as great an issue with lag. If the person is orange its 30 delay otherwise its pretty good.
For me anyways.
For me anyways.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I don't thinks it's that bad at all 95% of the time.
The only times I've gotten lag was when my connection was screwing up, or I'm facing one of my friends who I know have crappy connections.
Redson
Smash Journeyman
Sudden derailing of topic. :\
>>>To Yuna: Yuna, have you ever spectated matches online before? If you watch people from all over the world, you can sometimes find matches to where my words are true. This I will say does happen occasionally, depending on the settings of the match and the skill difference. I can garuntee you that if you spectated a match with 4 characters of almost equal skill of each other, despite the charater match-ups, then you will be able to see that maybe the least expected character will win. I've seen Tourny set matches where I thought Ganon was least likely to win. Well I was wrong, Ganon won sometimes. We all know Ganon is slow, but if given the right person to control him then he could be a powerful character. It's those kind of matches where people of almost, if not, equal skill are fighting each other and you watch the match, look at the character match up, you may see a light weight against a heavy and the heavy might win. Like a Bowzer vs. Toon Link match. In those small areas do i see a balance in the game like I have said before: I have noticed a change in win-loss flow among brawling, at least to where my fighting can take me that is. I have noticed that there isn't that much of a gap between winners and losers. I find it more fair that anyone could lose against anyone with any character at any given match, even without items(to those who may ask). ****But let me ask you Yuna and all of you people who are apart of this thread. What makes you think Meele is more balanced than Brawl? All I have read is about alot of people supporting the balance in Brawl while thier opponents like you have thrown in very little, anything worth consideration or persuasion. Let me hear your reasons. Let me hear why Meele is more balanced than Brawl. Let me hear your answers!****
Nobody pays attention to free for alls when it comes to balance, let alone free-for-alls on Wifi.
The brawl community is not just made up of those who fight in tournys you know. Even so apply what I said to an official tournament. Besides that point. I want to here reasons why you guys think Meele is so much more balanced than Brawl.
Balance doesn't exactly matter unless you play it in a competitive manner, you know. And I never argued the point that Melee is much more balanced than Brawl.
I know Ankoku. You have put up really great points and I haven't accused you of being an opposer. I admire for all that you have said. There is no arguing with you, it's as plain as that. I would just like to hear from out opposers why they think Meele is more balanced than Brawl. In this thread either it goes off topic or they disagree with something that really doesn't tell me why they think Meele is more balanced. I could say I am not seeing the full picture here in this thread. I see just about the whole side that is in favor of Brawl's balance but hardly...barely any of the side that opposes this view of balance in the game.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Um, this particular thread is geared more towards that subject matter. I hope you know that.
Smooth Criminal
This it not a popularity contest. How popular or how "pathetic" or how "weird" a character is has no bearing on their Competitive viability or game balance.
Nobody credible cared that it was "funny" to beat people as Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff was quite a good character in Melee. And she was clearly not the worst.
Umm... what alternate reality SWF are you reading? It's the "Brawl is more balanced!"-side that generally just says "It's more balanced because!" or quite possibly "Well, I think that it is... because.". It's the "Melee is more balanced!"-side that usually provides actual arguments (which remain largely unrefuted, I might add) for why they believe Melee is more balanced.
So explain to me how what the "Brawl community" is matters to the balance comparison between Meele and Brawl?
>>>Still waiting for those reasons people(Yuna, ShadowLink, etc)
How is balance relevant at all to casual FFA play?
Ok Yuna. If the "Meele is more balanced" side has those actual arguments, let me hear them.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Wait for it...
This.
To sum it up simply: Balance is, for the majority of people, a non-issue when it comes to things outside of tourney play. The people in this thread are discussing balance when it pertains to tourney play specifically.
Sooooooooo...
GG?
Smooth Criminal
Redson
Smash Journeyman
Bomber, you may want to shut the hell up for a while and LURK MOAR. You're making yourself look like a *******, and it's clear you don't know much about this community. (I am aware of the hypocracy.) You shouldn't DEMAND proof from people who never said anything about balance in the first place; it's like BEGGING for a flame war.
I only have so much water.
I'm not telling you to leave the boards. I'm telling you to look around and gather a bit more information before you go off on tangets towards more experienced forum members. You yourself said that you had no tournament experience, which automatically lowers your credibility around here, seeing as this topic is directed MAINLY (I didn't say FULLY) towards those with at least a little tournament experience.
TL:DR
Kid, calm the hell down. THINK before you speak. It's not hard. Takes what, three seconds?
She's been tourney viable for my entire Smash career, in other words, at least since 2004. Was King using her in 2004 (I honestly don't know)? And, hey, early on in the game's lifespan, a lot of things were different. Nobody thought Marth was worth their time 'til Ken appeared. Nobody thought Peach was any good 'til Mike G. started owning up the place using her. Nobody thought Ice Climbers could not jack squat 'til Chu Dat started doing his thing.
What part of "Personal skill trumphs Tiers and Individual Matchups" is too hard to grasp (or maybe you just happened to miss the jillion posts in which I said that)?
Of course someone can win as a Low Tier if they're good enough. The problem is this:
* Azen playing Ike can beat Joe Schmoe and go toe-to-toe with Joe Blow and place 6th in a tournament.
* Azen playing Snake will have him destroy both Joes and win the entire tournament.
Tiers exist whether we want them to or not. Only in the most balanced of games can all characters stand a virtually equal chance of winning. Sure, an "unexpected" character can win the skill gap is large enough. No one ever claimed that the Tier List is the end-all of all tournaments. If that were the case, everyone would be maining Snake and Meta-Knight.
Using a Low Tier, you have to work 10 times as hard as a Top Tier. In other words, you can win, yeah. But you most probably won't if you're facing someone using a Top Tier and who is of roughly equal skill because they don't have to work as hard and they have to screw up much more than you to lose.
Also, FFA's don't matter... ever. Especially if they're online. I don't care if the FFA consists of at least average players. Nobody cares. When we talk Theory Fighter and game balance, we assume the playes involved are among the world's best.
I could care less if an average Peach beat an average Zelda. Who is statistically more likely to win if they're both controller by utterly skilled players? That's what matters when in comes to Competitive gaming and game balance.
You know, what I have very extensive experience with Casual smashers and "less skilled" one because I go to many anime conventions (virtually every single one in Sweden). And at those conventions, there's always tons of people who play Smash casually. Wow, so if you put together a bunch of random Brawl-players, there are many Low Tier users who win?
Umm... yah. In my days playing lesser skilled players, I've rarely ever seen Top Tiers doing well in Melee. I've seen tons of Low Tiers doing well. Why? Because the players playing aren't that good. They do not know the best way to play their characters or the best ways to counter other characters. They will not know how to chaingrab, how to combo, how to DI, how to L-cancel.
Heck, I destroy them all using Zelda, 8th or so worst in the game. Must mean Zelda's pretty good all of a sudden!
Of course the Tier List plays less of a role when lesser skilled players are involved. But nobody cares. Nobody cares what you've seen online because none of it matters.
I feel no need to repeat what I have already said one jillion times in this thread already. Backtrack 10 pages and you'll have an at least partial answer. Why should I be forced to repeat myself every time a new person enters a 150-page thread?
Redson
Smash Journeyman
THIS.
But though what you say is true, SC, many people still wonder which game is more balanced, and will continue to fight over which one is/isn't despite the fact that the entire thing doesn't matter. I came into this thread out of PURE CURIOSITY. Everyone's got that little hint of curiosity that will drive them to ask that question.
(Double post. FAIL.)
Redson
Smash Journeyman
Because not everyone has the time to read all 150 pages of a thread. :\
You should be able to catch the gist of it by reading at least FIVE or so pages.
Heck, had he even read the original post, he would've had a pretty good partial answer as a lot of that still stands.
I would be inclined to disagree with this, except that you're citing Azen.
Also, your first point will never happen. Azen will never place 6th because two people tie for 5th and two people tie for 7th in a double elimination bracket.
Let's replace Azen with Mew2King.
Mew2King probably wouldn't take first with Snake, since he claims it's the best character in the game but he's unwilling to use Snake in serious tournament play.
He probably still do better than when he's using, say, Ike. It's a hypothetical scenario.
* Let's take one very skilled Brawl player: Mew2King.
* Let's give him 1 month to spend 4 hours a day practicing Brawl and refining his game as one single character.
In Example A, he's given Snake. In Example B, he's given Peach. Which character would he most probably have the greatest chance of winning and/or doing well as once that one month is up?
BlackSmoke
Smash Cadet
Hm a few things I noticed in brawl. Is that characters have more defensive moves and that grabbing was for the most part nerfed to some extent. Now that you can't shuffle anymore other characters seem to shine more like Ganon, DK and Bowser and really cheap broken characters like shiek and falco where hella nerfed but new comers like Meta Knight and Snake took there places. Games a bit more balanced since some characters can play defensively now.
All in all I dont play brawl alot, yet, but im a devout fan who watches alot of online battles. I can say that for the most part that battles are close and though I hate that some players are really tanky like Snake....>_> for the most part I would say Brawl is a improvement. Unless you miss the days of Shuffling Shine abuse fox and speedy aerial beast marth. Brawl is the better game.
LOL counter discussion is that grab combos are broken, too many defensive moves like snakes motar, DDD hammer range and waddles, pikmin laming, pikachu QAC laming, Er yeah .
All in all I dont play brawl alot, yet, but im a devout fan who watches alot of online battles. I can say that for the most part that battles are close and though I hate that some players are really tanky like Snake....>_> for the most part I would say Brawl is a improvement. Unless you miss the days of Shuffling Shine abuse fox and speedy aerial beast marth. Brawl is the better game.
LOL counter discussion is that grab combos are broken, too many defensive moves like snakes motar, DDD hammer range and waddles, pikmin laming, pikachu QAC laming, Er yeah .
IrArby
Smash Ace
Exactly! And this same scenario applies to quite a few characters in the mid/low tiers who are overlooked by Smashers foreign to Large Competitive Tournament Play. Tiers have a very limited situational kind of accuracy yet they're sort of needed at the same time. The most accurate way is to just have individual matchups for every character but people would still make a tier list out of that info.
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