Brawl meant to be a party game? An in depth analysis considering both POV's

[Plairnkk]

So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.


I'll start with the obvious.

Advance Techs:

Advance techs removed from melee-->Brawl:


Wavedash: By no means a necessary tech, but very useful in the process of cancelling dashes and turning around. Also sped up platform games DRAMATICALLY by being able to land on them whenever. Taking out wavedashing also took out triangle jumping which was a useful way to get in on some ranged attacks.
Taking this out? LIMITING

Dash Dancing: Perhaps the staple to Smash's current metagame. Bait an attack and run in and hit them. Gay? Yes. But easy to beat? Yes, if you're decent at the game.
Taking this out? LIMITING

Light Shielding: A very useful tech that allowed one to shield against spam or aerials with a bigger shield that wasn't very rapidly deplinished. Useful to defend against camping.
Taking this out? LIMITING

Powershield (Reflector attribute): When powershielding a projectile (powershielding was actually hard to do in melee compared to brawl) the projectile would fly back the way it was sent. Very useful in defending against camping.
Taking this out? LIMITING

Jump Cancelling: When running in melee you could cancel your run with a jump into a grab with less lag or an upsmash. In Brawl if you try to do this you simply air dodge into the air. You can, however, just run and hit the C-stick up without jump cancelling and perform an upsmash. One of many ways they simply dumbed down the gameplay.
Taking this out? LIMITING

Rolling from the edge get-up lag for edgeguarding: Previously when edgeguarding you could roll and the edge would be held for the animation while you rolled. This has been removed making edgeguarding even less practical.
Taking this out? LIMITING

L-Cancelling: Took away 1/2 the lag from when you landed with an un-finished animation aerial. This allowed slow characters to move more swiftly and opened potential for more combos. Removing this limited character selection and combo ability
Taking this out? LIMITING


Crouch Cancelling: Allowed weaker attacks to be cancelled on the ground sending you not as far. Provided diversity and stopped weak attacks from always comboing. However since comboing doesn't really exist in brawl, crouch cancelling isn't too necessary.
Taking this out? Impartial


Directional Air-Dodge: Wavedashing aside, directional airdodging was useful for many things. You could switch the way you air dodge and how you travel afterwards opening an array of mindgames as far as being above someone. Now you have one option.
Taking this out? LIMITING


Advance techs implemented from melee:Brawl:

Wall Clinging: Basically useless. Can be used to camp. Will be banned in tournaments if is done for too long.
Adding this in? USELESS

Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous.
Adding this in? LIMITING

Edgegrab lag: Now when you grab the ledge you're forced into nearly a second of lag before you can do anything else. This is done so you can't use your invinicibility frames to your advantage - another act of limiting gameplay.
Adding this in? LIMITING

Footstool Jump: Very interesting thought - has a lot of potential for edgeguards as it sends the opponent down. I'm interested to see where advanced play takes this.
Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Yay, something good =)

Move Knockback Decay: When using the same move over and over the damage AND knockback are decreased. I am impartial to this. I am glad because kill moves can't be spammed over and over, but simple moves like uptilts combo many many times in a row because they send less and less each time while the opponents damage is going up each time. Nonetheless I'd still say
Adding this in? Expanding

Crawling: Character crawls low to the ground - but is extremely slow and vulnerable. A rather useless tech.
Adding this in? USELESS

Shielddropping: The most useful tech added in thus far - and probably something us good brawl players abuse the most. Very useful to drop your shield after an attack and punish with whatever.
Adding this in? Expanding!!!!! Definitely a stable in competitive metagame. (Although it further promotes shield camping)

Jump-->Turn back Air: Useful because in Brawl a lot of characters have better back airs than forward airs. You can now do back-airs going forward! Useful tech, but not gamebreaking in the least.
Adding this in? Somewhat Expanding






The Physics Engine:

The physics engine in brawl is simply created in a limiting manner.

Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).

Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.

AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.

Overall Physics Engine change: LIMITING



Random little partygame things

1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite
2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game.
3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl.
4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material.
5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.

Tier list?

Those of you who are pro-brawl because now "every character has a chance" are sorely mistaken. The game isn't new enough and enough tournaments haven't been played to have a solid tier list, but it's obvious some top characters will emerge. The reason melee had diversity between characters was the universal techs EVERY character could use to make them better - which have all been stripped in brawl. The slow characters have nothing to speed them up in brawl, and will eventually fall off the chart. There will most likely be less competitive characters to use in brawl - and there will most likely be a MUCH larger gap between these top characters and the rest of the cast. (Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).

That's about it for now. I'm sure I'm probably missing a few things on each end but overall that's the concept of brawl.

Do i play it? Yes. Am I hopeful it will be good? Yes. Am i better than 99% of brawl newbies reading this post? Most definitely, Yes. But this does not mean I'm going to lie to myself and say Brawl is a better game than melee. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MELEE PROS WHO ARE ANTI-BRAWL WANTED BRAWL TO BE GOOD JUST AS MUCH - IF NOT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.If advance techs are released or we figure out ways to make the game better than maybe - but as for now it seems as if Sakurai wanted a party game - and the only reason it's being competitive at all is because we're, as a community, stretching it so far to make it that way.

P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:


1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.

2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.

3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.

 

[Frames]

I think that while Brawl was most likely intended to be a party game by Sakurai and his team, the community can still make this a competitive game. I mean any game has the potential to be competitive as long as there are winners and losers. Look at Rock, Paper, Scissors for instance. Some would say that game is all luck (myself included), yet they have national tournaments with thousands of dollars in prizes. It is true that brawl is missing a few things, but I think that the scene will still grow because people who have that competitive drive, that "play-to-win" mentality, will keep brawl growing.

On an unrelated note, will there be a pound 4 with brawl?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Brawl was meant to be an action game. Something of a party game and something of a fighting game. It is an unique game. The way the game is expanded (item based gameplay) in each release is clearly seen it is not meant to be a competitive fighting game. To be fully enjoyed with all of its options I have been suggesting that you have to play it competitively with 4 players and all items on. A set of random stages, and 5 lives so after a long battle, skills and wits overcome luck and randomness.

P.D. I can see your analysis is a bit shallow. For example, crawling is fast enough and has good use when moving through the battlefield when someone is firing and can help avoid blaster bombs and many hazards while moving and even attacking.

 

[Ojanya]

I agree with almost everything in that post. I'm staying optomistic for now, though. Brawl is still fun, and if it shapes up to have a big competitive scene, even better.

 

[Eggm]

People looking for tournament and competitive play should defintley play melee over brawl, that is what this thread is trying to get across. xD And please please if you are going to argue it follow his rules he put in, i'm so tired of joined smash boards 2008 newbs saying these things over and over just cause one guy said it once.

P.S: Arguments absolutely NOT to respond with in this thread:


1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.

2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.

3.) LOLZ U R JUST MAD CUZ UR AT'S RNT IN THE GME AND NOW U HAVE NO GLITCHES TO ABUSE AND U CAN'T WIN: This is the worst. Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.
__________________

 

[NeroeXIII]

Very interesting, but like Frames said, the community can change a game. It can change the attitude towards the game. The creators of the game can SUGGEST what the game can be, but really the community has the final say.

 

[Samochan]

*subscribes*

I'm interested to see where this will head, but very nice op post in any case. :3

But what bout CC, L-canceling and directional air dodge being removed from brawl?

 

[hoopspr226]

I think crawling may have its uses... I'm probably not as experienced as you yet (as I've only had the game about 3 days) but characters like snake with a good down tilt seem to have a decent attack to do out of the crawl. It also seems like a decent way to avoid certain projectiles and short hopped aerials.

Two other advanced (?) techniques that you might want to consider adding:

1. Dash -> turnaround back air. It's no where near as ubiquitous as things like wavedashing and L-canceling were, but I regularly use it and it seems to be useful quite a few times per match.
2. Hyphen smashing - essentially like a wavedash -> upsmash... seems to be pretty useful

 

[Rose]

Everything that could've gone wrong with brawl went horribly wrong. And then things that seemed safe went wrong too. And then they added tripping.

This game is so deliberately noncompetitive in nature that I cannot understand how any good melee players are actually embracing it as more than a party game. Brawl is the party game that fighting game enthusiasts thought melee was.

btw, you forgot to mention buffering in the changes. It completely obliterates the idea of precise control.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

I thought it was obvious that not just Brawl, but the Smash games in general were designed to be party games. The thing is, Melee's engine made it much more compatible as a "true" fighting game, because it allowed only the most skilled players to come out on top (like you would expect in pretty much any other fighting game). It seems like Sakurai didn't approve of this, and with Brawl he removed many of these factors, thus helping to even the playing field between competitives and casuals. Of course those who practice Brawl are still going to find techniques that allow them to dominate over casuals, but the skill gap is going to be much smaller this time around.

 

[Brasil]

Now keep in mind I think you all are horridly absurd, but just to satisfy my morbid curiosity...

Tripping: Random tripping is awful. Video proving it's random seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw If saurai wanted the game to be as serious as melee - he wouldn't have obviously put this in. An attempt to slow gameplay more. Encourages camping more since moving swiftly can be dangerous.

Firstly, I agree. Tripping is terrible.

Secondly, nobody in their right mind would consider Melee a "serious" game. It's a goofy Nintendo slug-fest through and through. Any game that features a giant ape, an electric rat, a borderline brain-damaged plumber all beating the living piss out of each other is not serious, no matter what gameplay discoveries have been made over multiple years.

Thirdly, insofar as slowing down the gameplay...eh. So far I haven't seen much slower gameplay that is directly related to the possibility of tripping. I don't think the intent of Tripping was to slow down the gameplay...in all likelihood it's just a brain-damaged game designer genuinely believing it would make him game funnier, quirkier, and more endearing.

Combos: Yes combos still exist, but they are no longer guaranteed. They are based on your opponents inability to control their character or know what they're doing. The universal floatiness of everyone leaves "combos" extremely similar on every character and overall promotes shallowness. The lack of hit-stun lag allows one to airdodge almost instantly after being hit or to break up a "combo" with a move of their own with relative ease. Everyone in brawl you have to treat like Luigi in melee - but with even less hit stun. (Note: everyone hated fighting luigi).

See, here your argument is kind of goofy, because "guaranteed combos" sound more like the dial-a-combo nonsense from Tekken/Virtua Fighter. The brilliance of Smash Bros has always been a streamlined, simple approach to combat control, which allows the player to discover/develop patterns and combinations on their own. In Melee, what was happening was the players were finding effective combinations of moves that linked well. There was certainly a fundamental template in place by the dev team (Falcon's throws generally setting up for a knee, for example), but ultimately, the so-called "guaranteed" combos were nothing more than what could result from player ingenuity. And to elevate those combos to such a lofty caliber? Trite and misguided.

Edgeguarding in reguards to the physics engine: When someone is hit off the stage now - for the majority of the characters they essentially have to die off the side before they can't make it back. The overall floatiness of the characters allow for people to make it back without even using their up+b most of the time. The inexperienced were always frustrated when they couldn't make it back or when they got edgehogged - so what's the best answer? Cater to them - do your best to take this out.

Honestly? The new system is vastly superior. Edgeguarding in Melee was one of turtling. The recovering player had an average chance of returning to begin with. But if the edgeguarder hit Falcon/Ganondorf with Mario's cape, it resulted in a KO. Edgegrab, same deal. Certain characters were outright doomed if you edge-grabbed and exploited those invincibility frames. In Melee, despite minor variations, edge-guarding was simplistic and one-dimensional. It was too easy for the defending player to edge-guard, and it was too difficult for the recovering player to return. When the defending player got more aggressive for the edge-guard, even jumping out into the air, the recovering player got seriously screwed over.

Not the case in Brawl. Edge-guarding now, despite minor variations, requires more than just turtling on the edge. The floatier physics allow the returning player to cover more distance, yes. But it ALSO allows the defending player more leeway to jump out and finish the kill. This is good. I want players to want to get much more aggressive beyond what we've seen in Melee, and I also want edge-guarding to be more than physically being between the edge and the recovering player. Suffice to say, I'm very interested in Brawl's edge-guarding a year from now.

AutoSweetspotting: Awful. Possibly the worst thing that happened to Brawl. Completely takes out many MANY aspects that were present in melee. Unfortunately these aspects are replaced with nothing. Effectively negated the value of edgeguarding tenfold.

I agree that AutoSweetspotting is meh, BUT it will increase the value of competent edge-guarding. No longer is turtling on the edge going to cut it. If you want to edge-guard successfully in Brawl, you're going to have to do more than invincibility frame manipulation. And really, the "value" in Melee's edge-guarding is an illusion. There was a perceived value in it because of Melee's engine. But ultimately, it was one-dimensional in terms of raw technique.

1. Think of all the levels brought back from Melee to Brawl..Nearly all of them had randomness factors (Pokemon stadium, Onnett, Brinstar, Corneria, Jungle Japes) And the obvious Hyrule temple is simply a party favorite
2. Some characters now come equipped with items in the orginal costume - only further promoting the use of items in the game.
3. Fox used to be able to drillshine-->any move. Now fox can just drill-->any move. Same overall concept, much easier to do. This trend is evident all throughout brawl.
4. Online play: Online play was obviously made as an attempt to make the game a more fun party game..not for competitive play. The lag on online play can be ridiculous, and if you play with random people the game modes people choose are awful. Definitely party game material.
5. The inability to transfer unlocked things between wii's. This is very subtle, but can definitely be construed as Sakurai not wanting people to just transfer data without playing the game themself.

Much of this is straight-up conspiratorial paranoia. Your point about the levels is mildly decent, but 64-to-Melee had crap returning levels, too. So I'm chalking up Melee-to-Brawl returning levels due to developer incompetence long before secret conspiratorial plans.

I don't know what the hell you're trying to say with #2.

#3 is nit-picky as all hell and quite frankly, means jack**** in the bigger scheme of things. A single move combination is neither indicative of, nor confirmation of, some grand conspiracy on the part of the development team.

#4...the online play is straight-up crap, period. Nobody in their right mind would even use it for a party game. Because it's that bad...and it betrays Nintendo's own incompetence, arrogance, and general indifference and malaise when it comes to proper online gaming. Again, no conspiracy. Just developer incompetence.

#5...no, that's just developer incompetence. If it makes no sense at all, and nobody can realistically provide any sort of explanation why character data is tied to the Wii system itself, then the developer is incompetent, rather than conspiratorial.

(Right now it's looking like metaknight is just dominate).

Tiers? Metaknight is not going to dominate at all. He has no killing power whatsoever. You're going to see Pit in higher tiers, if he doesn't outright dominate. He can make any character's approach hellish. His side-B and uair are absurdly devastating. His arrows fire quickly, stun the target, and remind me of the worst abuse of Falco's laser back in Melee. He's got broken recovery. You want to talk about tier domination, you talk about Pit long before MK. Or Diddy. Kirby. Toon Link. Wolf. ZSS.

 

[Zek]

Smash has always been a party game and fighting game in one. All Items Very High? Party game. 1v1 No Items? Fighting game. Even in Brawl the random aspects of a tourney match are negligible. The outcome is still determined almost entirely by skill. What part of that is not a fighting game? I'm sorry if the gameplay is not technical enough for your personal tastes, but Brawl still has a skill curve that allows someone to outmatch 99.9% of players, down from Melee's 99.99%.

 

[Plairnkk]

Now keep in mind I think you all are horridly absurd, but just to satisfy my morbid curiosity...



Firstly, I agree. Tripping is terrible.

Secondly, nobody in their right mind would consider Melee a "serious" game. It's a goofy Nintendo slug-fest through and through. Any game that features a giant ape, an electric rat, a borderline brain-damaged plumber all beating the living piss out of each other is not serious, no matter what gameplay discoveries have been made over multiple years.

Thirdly, insofar as slowing down the gameplay...eh. So far I haven't seen much slower gameplay that is directly related to the possibility of tripping. I don't think the intent of Tripping was to slow down the gameplay...in all likelihood it's just a brain-damaged game designer genuinely believing it would make him game funnier, quirkier, and more endearing.



See, here your argument is kind of goofy, because "guaranteed combos" sound more like the dial-a-combo nonsense from Tekken/Virtua Fighter. The brilliance of Smash Bros has always been a streamlined, simple approach to combat control, which allows the player to discover/develop patterns and combinations on their own. In Melee, what was happening was the players were finding effective combinations of moves that linked well. There was certainly a fundamental template in place by the dev team (Falcon's throws generally setting up for a knee, for example), but ultimately, the so-called "guaranteed" combos were nothing more than what could result from player ingenuity. And to elevate those combos to such a lofty caliber? Trite and misguided.



Honestly? The new system is vastly superior. Edgeguarding in Melee was one of turtling. The recovering player had an average chance of returning to begin with. But if the edgeguarder hit Falcon/Ganondorf with Mario's cape, it resulted in a KO. Edgegrab, same deal. Certain characters were outright doomed if you edge-grabbed and exploited those invincibility frames. In Melee, despite minor variations, edge-guarding was simplistic and one-dimensional. It was too easy for the defending player to edge-guard, and it was too difficult for the recovering player to return. When the defending player got more aggressive for the edge-guard, even jumping out into the air, the recovering player got seriously screwed over.

Not the case in Brawl. Edge-guarding now, despite minor variations, requires more than just turtling on the edge. The floatier physics allow the returning player to cover more distance, yes. But it ALSO allows the defending player more leeway to jump out and finish the kill. This is good. I want players to want to get much more aggressive beyond what we've seen in Melee, and I also want edge-guarding to be more than physically being between the edge and the recovering player. Suffice to say, I'm very interested in Brawl's edge-guarding a year from now.



I agree that AutoSweetspotting is meh, BUT it will increase the value of competent edge-guarding. No longer is turtling on the edge going to cut it. If you want to edge-guard successfully in Brawl, you're going to have to do more than invincibility frame manipulation. And really, the "value" in Melee's edge-guarding is an illusion. There was a perceived value in it because of Melee's engine. But ultimately, it was one-dimensional in terms of raw technique.



Much of this is straight-up conspiratorial paranoia. Your point about the levels is mildly decent, but 64-to-Melee had crap returning levels, too. So I'm chalking up Melee-to-Brawl returning levels due to developer incompetence long before secret conspiratorial plans.

I don't know what the hell you're trying to say with #2.

#3 is nit-picky as all hell and quite frankly, means jack**** in the bigger scheme of things. A single move combination is neither indicative of, nor confirmation of, some grand conspiracy on the part of the development team.

#4...the online play is straight-up crap, period. Nobody in their right mind would even use it for a party game. Because it's that bad...and it betrays Nintendo's own incompetence, arrogance, and general indifference and malaise when it comes to proper online gaming. Again, no conspiracy. Just developer incompetence.

#5...no, that's just developer incompetence. If it makes no sense at all, and nobody can realistically provide any sort of explanation why character data is tied to the Wii system itself, then the developer is incompetent, rather than conspiratorial.



Tiers? Metaknight is not going to dominate at all. He has no killing power whatsoever. You're going to see Pit in higher tiers, if he doesn't outright dominate. He can make any character's approach hellish. His side-B and uair are absurdly devastating. His arrows fire quickly, stun the target, and remind me of the worst abuse of Falco's laser back in Melee. He's got broken recovery. You want to talk about tier domination, you talk about Pit long before MK. Or Diddy. Kirby. Toon Link. Wolf. ZSS.

I'm not even going to argue with this because although you sound like you're an intelligent person - your knowledge of the game lacks. MK has great killing power with his up+b, he can combo uairs into up+b etc. MK is really good.

As far as edgeguarding goes it's going to be MUCH more shallow than melee any way you look at it. ALL characters were vulnerable off the ledge against a top level player, it was just more difficult to edgeguard some than others. However that's what kept the game balanced. The characters that got edgeguarded the worst (falcon, fox, sheik) would have been RIDICULOUSLY broken with brawl-esque recoveries.

I don't like you talking about what "the brilliance of smash is" when you haven't really experienced smash at a high level. You don't really know what the brilliance of smash is until then, anyway.

 

[thumbswayup]

Tiers? Metaknight is not going to dominate at all. He has no killing power whatsoever.

It might interest you to know, azen's ike lost to a metaknight at chudat's biweekly.

Why don't you actually USE the character before you make a ridiculous statement like that? Metaknight's up b is an excellent and sick combo finisher and is one of the hardest to dodge.

edit: lol plank posted basically what i said about his up b right before me. crashboards took forever to load the page again lol.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

crashboards

I think you mean "No-nodes-boards"

 

[Zek]

As far as edgeguarding goes it's going to be MUCH more shallow than melee any way you look at it. ALL characters were vulnerable off the ledge against a top level player, it was just more difficult to edgeguard some than others. However that's what kept the game balanced. The characters that got edgeguarded the worst (falcon, fox, sheik) would have been RIDICULOUSLY broken with brawl-esque recoveries.

What does that have to do with Brawl? The game has obviously been rebalanced based on the new mechanics(how well remains to be seen). You didn't make a case at all about how Brawl's edgeguarding is shallower. Recovery is easier, yes, but that just means the edgeguarder has to be more aggressive. If anything it's Melee's edgehogging that was shallow.

 

[Fonz]

Brawl is a mixed bag for me, but I welcome the change. No ledge stalling/invincibility usage is a good thing, as much as I loved to jump off the ledge with an aerial I think it is better this way. Ledge stalling was definitely a tactic in melee that detracted from competitive play. Edgeguarding is just different, I'm confident gimping will return to at prominence once everyone learns their ****.

The new airdodge function I can live with. No directional takes away but being able to move after airdodging adds to gameplay options. The thing I miss most is l-canceling. I guess it probably has to do with online play but I really miss being able to do almost any move into a shield with fast character. Now you have to know which moves you can approach with and for my characters that means approaching backwards which can be transparent.

As for the stages brought over, those were some of the more reasonable counterpick levels from melee (for the most part) and none of them can be easily recreated with the stage editor. The only "neutrals" that didn't make the transition were fod and dl64 and both wouldn't be terribly difficult to recreate.

Removing projectile reflecting with a powershield is one of the things that doesn't really make sense to me. With the half damage it was hardly major, and hindered camping. I don't see the problem with that at all. Oh well.

 

[DRaGZ]

For one thing, I really miss l-cancelling. Not necessarily because it's bad for me (R.O.B. doesn't need it too badly really) but mainly because my friend, who has been maining Link ever since he ever heard of the concept of Smash Bros., suffers really badly due to the massive risks of using his airs, especially his dair. (Also because his Up+B has been ridiculously nerfed).

I do really like the new way to edgeguard though, especially with R.O.B. It's really fun chasing with fairs and killing with nairs, bairs, or dairs. And I like the fact that it's far more difficult to do "guaranteed" combos. I always thought those were stupid and it's a far better system now, imo, to force people to adapt to combos on the fly rather than repetitively doing the same drills/d-throws/nair/fair combos I'd been seeing in Melee ad nauseaum.

 

[CircularGeometry]

Well, the way I see it, you could make the argument that this game is strictly a party game. However, just because some of the familiar mechanics are taken out of the game, that does not guarantee this won't be a competitive fighter. Take a look at the Street Fighter series, for example. Street Fighter 3 focuses on setting up into combos and supers and, to an extent, super turbo does the same. If you look at the Alpha series, the game has little to do about combos, and supers are not as effective as they are in other games. However, Alpha is still played at fighting game tournaments even to this day.

So before anyone makes a judgment either way on the matter, let people tinker around and figure out ways to make this thing competitive. Melee did have a variety of advanced techniques, but that does not necessarily mean that Brawl won't have any. Wavedashing wasn't even discovered until later after the game's release. If the game was too similar to Melee, people would complain not enough was done to make it different. Let's see where this game stands in about 6 months and hope for the best.

 

[Thino]

IMO smash has always been a party game, its normal that they tried to balance out and limit possiblities since its being playable online

 

[Tinkerer]

You forgot Tether Recoveries (they were in Melee alright, but not used as much, as B-up was almost always superior.), Gliding, Swimming, and Pivot Grabbing. Not all greatly important, but new anyway.

 

[Brasil]

I'm not even going to argue with this because although you sound like you're an intelligent person - your knowledge of the game lacks. MK has great killing power with his up+b, he can combo uairs into up+b etc. MK is really good.

How does that make him domination material, again? He's got a single situational kill move that will begin to suffer from diminishing returns the more the player relies on it...which does not bode well at all. After having played as and against Pit, however, Pit is going to be one to watch. He can inflict damage just as quickly as MK, can recover just as well, has strong aerial and ground games, and nearly every smash and aerial has KO potential. On top of that, his specials can very effectively limit approaches and he has a fantastic attack-flow. And yet MK is still being considered as tier domination? You must elaborate there, because as it stands now...anything MK can do, Pit can do much better.

As far as edgeguarding goes it's going to be MUCH more shallow than melee any way you look at it. ALL characters were vulnerable off the ledge against a top level player, it was just more difficult to edgeguard some than others. However that's what kept the game balanced. The characters that got edgeguarded the worst (falcon, fox, sheik) would have been RIDICULOUSLY broken with brawl-esque recoveries.

As if Melee's edge-guarding wasn't shallow? lol There were no Brawl-esque recoveries in Melee because Melee focused on the ground game (not air). Edge-guarding in Melee was used to prevent your opponent from getting back onto the ground. You defended from the ground, and rarely from the air, unless you played a tricked-out Falcon. Hell, most the advanced Melee techniques I've seen focus on the ground more than air. Why's that? Why short hop instead of tall hop? Why wavedash, rather than air dodge? With L-cancels, you could use short aerials then be able to get back on the ground relatively safely. You stayed on or close to the ground in Melee because being in the air meant death.

At least humor me here. Entertain the discussion. I'm genuinely interested in hearing how and why an edge-guarding system like Melee's was deep(er?) when you were as good as dead if the edge-guarder was paying attention. The game was weighted so heavily to the ground that virtually any uncontrolled airborne movement could be fatal.

And remember what's been changed with Falcon, Fox, and Sheik for Brawl. They can recover much better now, but they're no longer the monsters they were in Melee.

I don't like you talking about what "the brilliance of smash is" when you haven't really experienced smash at a high level. You don't really know what the brilliance of smash is until then, anyway.

Well I'm sorry that you don't like me talking about this, but the truth of the matter is...the brilliance of Smash is the game design's versatility.

Brawl is focusing on the aerial game. Floatier physics. New air dodge mechanics. New approach to recoveries. Edge-guarding requiring more aggressive action on the part of the defender.

Melee focused on the ground game, and the gameplay reflected that: advanced techniques that enhanced ground performance, generally unforgiving aerial movement, and an edge-guarding system that favored the defender.

Smash 64 was the balance. Combos depended upon the player's ability to improvise and create usable combinations out of two buttons and a joystick. It had a healthy ground and aerial game, a successful edge-guard meant the player did more than just turtle by the edge, and a comfortable KO damage range.

And no matter how you try to spin it otherwise, Smash has always been about player ingenuity. That's the brilliance: it's a simple system on the outside, but it's a system versatile enough to where if a player is creative enough, there's significant depth. The brilliance of Smash--that simple yet versatile system--is why Melee is still being played. It's how players discovered and created tricks to further develop/evolve the gameplay.

Humor me, at the very least. How is Smash Bros not simple yet versatile? How is that not the brilliance of the series? How else would you explain Melee's gameplay evolving over the past half-a-decade, if I apparently "haven't really experienced Smash at a high level"?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

4 players with Items on high: a party game with lots of fun and options. 1 vs 1, no items: A fighting game with lesser options.

Hmm, I thought of this. What about an hybrid within the two?

I will open a thread for this.

 

[TheManaLord]

best topic ever. very good.

 

[Popuri]

Well said, I think I'l just stay here for now.

As for the people wanting to make argument no. 2. you could be right (likely not) but we all hope you are...

 

[MASAHIROx]

**** plank i can see that this whole issue has really cut you deep.

 

[evo6spd]

i fail to realize anti-brawl side of the argument/discussion. brawl is a different game from melee. it was suppose to be. everyone who spent the time to learn all the advanced techniques (myself included) are the minorities in the population. so why would nintendo allow those abilities/EXPLOITS in the next game? yes if you spend the time to learn how to do them you have the right to beat all your friends at the game. thats cool. well now in this game its brought everyone back down to a somewhat equal level. and a lot of you say thats not competitive??? if thats not competitive then what is?
the game is DIFFERENT FROM MELEE. thats what nintendo does(gamecube then the wii-no other company did what the wii does). its not like the halo series theres no story that tethers them together. each is its OWN GAME. don't like brawl then don't play it. also in the beginning of melee everyone sucked. it was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE 64 version. well brawl is different from melee so why refuse to except it???

imo i think that since it took brawl so long to come out. everyone had the time, and the some the desire to find all the exploits of melee. so everyone got good and loved the game.

personally i like both games for their differences

 

[Popuri]

i fail

yup... and in your first ever post too n_n)b

 

[evo6spd]

good one . why dont you post something after you take the d1cks out off your a s s

 

[sincityserious]

if I apparently "haven't really experienced Smash at a high level"?

lol. don't kid yourself. are you aware of just how easy it is for an experienced, competitive melee player to recognize someone who isn't? i don't think you do. just from reading some of your concepts, as well as some of the certain terms you used, concerning melee's advanced techniques and edge-guarding, it's quite obvious that you haven't even experienced melee at a mediocre level, let alone a high one; stop pretending.

****, i can't believe i even let myself post in this kind of thread.

 

[Brasil]

lol. don't kid yourself. are you aware of just how easy it is for an experienced, competitive melee player to recognize someone who isn't? i don't think you do. just from reading some of your concepts, as well as some of the certain terms you used, concerning melee's advanced techniques and edge-guarding, it's quite obvious that you haven't even experienced melee at a mediocre level, let alone a high one; stop pretending.

Haha no I just know enough to see through all of this pedantic elitist posturing. Anyone who calls Smash Bros a "serious game" has his or her priorities screwed up. And anyone who doesn't understand why Smash Bros is a brilliant series is equally screwed up. I don't give two ****s about what anyone says or thinks around here, because quite frankly, I don't see all that much rationality in the first place.

 

[S0crat3s]

Didn't you say in the title that this is considering BOTH points of view? From what I've read, it's only saying "lol brawl iz partie gam cuz no wavedashing lulz lulz"...

 

[Wuss]

I agree, almost everything different in brawl is designed to make the game less deep, more random, and less competitive. Therefore making it more of a party game. Everyone knows that smash is supposed to be a party game, but melee was also a great competitive game. Nothing wrong there. Sakurai made a bad choice imo cause he just really made the game into a shallower version of the original, and melee is far superior to the original...

 

[WFL]

As if Melee's edge-guarding wasn't shallow? lol There were no Brawl-esque recoveries in Melee because Melee focused on the ground game (not air). Edge-guarding in Melee was used to prevent your opponent from getting back onto the ground. You defended from the ground, and rarely from the air, unless you played a tricked-out Falcon. Hell, most the advanced Melee techniques I've seen focus on the ground more than air. Why's that? Why short hop instead of tall hop? Why wavedash, rather than air dodge? With L-cancels, you could use short aerials then be able to get back on the ground relatively safely. You stayed on or close to the ground in Melee because being in the air meant death.

At least humor me here. Entertain the discussion. I'm genuinely interested in hearing how and why an edge-guarding system like Melee's was deep(er?) when you were as good as dead if the edge-guarder was paying attention. The game was weighted so heavily to the ground that virtually any uncontrolled airborne movement could be fatal.

And remember what's been changed with Falcon, Fox, and Sheik for Brawl. They can recover much better now, but they're no longer the monsters they were in Melee.

First of all, melee's edgeguarding wasn't in-depth, but was probably one of the most important things of a match. In melee you had to mindgame your way back on to the ledge or else you died. And if they stayed on the ground the whole time you either sweetspot or tech their attack. You obviously don't know what a sweetspot or tech is because they're probably the most important techniques for recovery. In Brawl most characters have amazing recoveries and auto sweetspot so there's no point in even trying to edgeguard.

Next, the whole point of L-canceling isn't to get back to the ground safely. It was in order to be able to jump again and use another attack. Of course you want to be on the ground after using a second jump, but if you're just short hopping it's just as bad as being hit off the ground, maybe even better because you're a little higher up making it a little easier to recover.

Also, in Brawl you still use short hopped aerials because your opponent is probably going to be on the ground and aerials usually are stronger than tilts and faster than smashes. For example, if you're playing DeDeDe and someone is just running at you, you can just f-tilt and it's no problem. If they short hop at the right time they might be able to avoid the f-tilt and punish you quickly with an aerial. It's the same thing in melee. You use a short hop aerial because it's quick and it avoids a lot of other options your opponent has.

And for your last comment, Fox is still a monster and there is no denying that. I played him once against my friend who had been playing the same character the whole night and I just wrecked him. This is by a kid whose whole fox game in melee was waveshine to up-smash. Of course sheik and falcon aren't as good because they have had their fairs nerfed, but I don't know why you even mention them anyway because they are all aerial oriented and you are saying melee is supposed to be played on the ground the majority of the time.

Haha no I just know enough to see through all of this pedantic elitist posturing. Anyone who calls Smash Bros a "serious game" has his or her priorities screwed up. And anyone who doesn't understand why Smash Bros is a brilliant series is equally screwed up. I don't give two ****s about what anyone says or thinks around here, because quite frankly, I don't see all that much rationality in the first place.

Then why even post if you're just not going to care what anyone else says. If you don't think the game is serious then just come here for information about the game and shut your mouth. And everyone here thinks that 64, melee, and brawl is a good game or else they wouldn't be here. Also, it is a serious game just like Halo and any other competitive MLG game because some people are making careers out of playing it. Of course it's not there yet, but once MLG picks it up and starts actually hosting tournaments then we will see some major dough given for wins.

 

[Popuri]

This thread is about the 'current' Brawl, we may one day make it even more tech-tastic than Melee (highly doubt it) but currently it is lacking in the gameplay depth we have in Melee by a lot. Thats all... no one is saying its over today right now.

The argument of Brawl being more party like is very well justified.

I have noticed a pattern in SWF, someone sometimes (rarely) makes a good point then everyone else floods in and posts a bunch of nonsense. Why is that? why cant they just stay out?

 

[Spellman]

I know it's been out for a month and two days, or whatever, and I know this isn't the argument that you wanted, but it's still fresh off the press in terms of the time it takes to master the game. It takes more then a month and two days to master Melee even with knowledge of all of the secrets, skills and techniques you have to develop. So with this game, a game where people haven't discovered ultimate strategies for winning yet, it's going to take even longer.

Maybe they're aren't. All I know is it's all about the reflexes and strategy now.

 

[japtar10101]

I completely agree with what the topic says: brawl is disappointing. But I'm remaining optimistic. Why? Because it turned out I felt the same thing when I first played melee as well.

To recount, I played SSB. Loved it, and thought I'd love melee instantly.

Turned out I was wrong. It was too fast, too responsive, and that incredibly frustrating gravitational pull made me dislike the game significantly. But in any case, I went along and practised melee for a really long time. Then I started loving melee.

I feel the same way for brawl. Because I became used to melee's speed and super-strong gravity, I felt brawl was a mistake. I think it's best to keep on playing, though. Who knows? Maybe there's a potential this thread missed.

 

[10th-Karma]

You (first post) make absolutely great points covering your view on brawl as a party game. It introduced some points i hadn't thought of.

(The next para is cuz some of you are assuming that a party game can't be competitive)

But I guess my problem is that some people say brawl isn't competitive while not taking into account the other enhancements of the game? Like maybe the fact that Sakurai added many more interesting characters such as Olimar, PT, Snake.... I think a true gamer would recognize that it's not only the layout of the fighting system that brings out the competitiveness, but also the less subtle features like the addition of destructable stages, the gameplay of new characters, the "sounds" of the game as well as the fact that in Brawl, the graphics are more impact oriented.

Yes all that I described contributes to the point that brawl is a party game, i'm not arguing that at all, but that doesn't determine the overall competitiveness of the game. We all have to start over from our ownage in melee, but that doesn't mean we have to whine over the lack of melee techs in brawl. There is so much to like about brawl not only for the "party" or "fun" aspect but also for the competitiveness.

Being competitive is a thing only the fans of the game can bring out. Lack of advanced techs doesn't mean we all have to start bashing its "un-melee-ness". I believe Brawl will become at least as competitive as melee once more people start to play it for what it is and not for what it's not.

 

[Spellman]

Oh and by the way, how is this an analysis of both points of views? It's more like completely tearing apart any opinions that this game is more competitive. The things that were removed can be argued as for the better of the game for some people.

If an accurate teir list can't be developed yet, competitiveness apparently may have not been discovered yet neither.

 

[Darkslash]

Didn't you say in the title that this is considering BOTH points of view? From what I've read, it's only saying "lol brawl iz partie gam cuz no wavedashing lulz lulz"...

I agree i mean look there are only haters and no defenders lolz

I saw some one put a line around the idea

"Tripping is the most stupidest thing in Brawl"

That pretty seems much 1 sided to me.