Brawl meant to be a party game? An in depth analysis considering both POV's

[arrowhead]

Didn't you say in the title that this is considering BOTH points of view? From what I've read, it's only saying "lol brawl iz partie gam cuz no wavedashing lulz lulz"...

it's an analysis based on a competitive gamer's standpoint

 

[Mikau et al]

So i'm going to compile all arguments thus far into one easy post to read, and it'll be my last post in the thread. I'm attempting to address both sides - as I avidly play Brawl I don't want people to think otherwise.

I'd say this is a very good, unbiased analysis. I'm purely a recreational player-never tried to do any techs myself (gave up on wavedashing after two minutes--patience is not one of my virtues), but still agree that Brawl basically screwed over the Melee competitors. I empathize. I think you should keep this thread and add other stuff, not just the competitive stuff, however. I know these boards are for the pros, but there are plenty of other things outside of the mechanics and AT's that scream "PARTY GAME" that I and many other people (both competitive and not) have issues with--they may not make the dumbing down of SSB more evident than you're gripes, but they are still there and in large numbers.

Great thread.

Peace,

Mikau

 

[Kirby M.D.]

This thread is about the 'current' Brawl, we may one day make it even more tech-tastic than Melee (highly doubt it) but currently it is lacking in the gameplay depth we have in Melee by a lot. Thats all... no one is saying its over today right now.

The argument of Brawl being more party like is very well justified.

I have noticed a pattern in SWF, someone sometimes (rarely) makes a good point then everyone else floods in and posts a bunch of nonsense. Why is that? why cant they just stay out?

Because everyone has an opinion, and they all want to be recognized.

I have to say OP, your points are valid, but they seem a little hackneyed. I know you see Brawl as not too terribly competitive, but the explanations are the same talking points we've seen since the JP leak. The pro-Brawl portion is a tad weak as well. Kudos to actually posting your points in a reasonable manner though.

 

[Aesir]

I thought it was obvious that not just Brawl, but the Smash games in general were designed to be party games.

Nintendo.com reconized them both as fighting games.

and in many respects 64 and melee had a lot of aspects which could make it a good competitive fighter.


Looking at whats in brawl, it's almost like sakurai hates competitive gamers. lol

 

[arrowhead]

it's almost like sakurai hates competitive gamers.

this is pretty much fact

i mean, tripping WTF

 

[Popuri]

I think when I grow up to Sakurai's age I will probably look back and laugh at myself for not finding tripping entertaining. I just wish I could enjoy it now u_u

Can anyone say they Love the idea? I mean do any of you guys not find it the least bit annoying? q:

 

[sincityserious]

Haha no I just know enough to see through all of this pedantic elitist posturing. Anyone who calls Smash Bros a "serious game" has his or her priorities screwed up. And anyone who doesn't understand why Smash Bros is a brilliant series is equally screwed up. I don't give two ****s about what anyone says or thinks around here, because quite frankly, I don't see all that much rationality in the first place.

trust me, you're a scrub. also, smash is a serious game when you can win $10,000 at a mlg tournament. don't bother replying to my post this time; i don't argue with nubs like you--that is, unless i'm pretty inebriated at the time.

 

[Aesir]

^ I ****ing love you.

 

[cyclone248i]

I lol'd pretty hard thar.

:\

 

[sincityserious]

I lol'd pretty hard thar.

:\

pretty hard, where?

 

[Plairnkk]

Does anyone from the EC area want to play right now? =)

 

[Eggm]

it's an analysis based on a competitive gamer's standpoint

This is a competitive players forum.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

Melee was meant to be a party game too, if it was meant to be a "competitive only" game there would be no option to play anything other than final destination with no items. Obviously, it turned into one of the best competition games ever. I have to agree though, Brawl is definitely more headed in the party direction than melee ever was.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

I think when I grow up to Sakurai's age I will probably look back and laugh at myself for not finding tripping entertaining. I just wish I could enjoy it now u_u

Can anyone say they Love the idea? I mean do any of you guys not find it the least bit annoying? q:

I laugh because the characters just fall and slide and look like "wtf?"

 

[Darth Alec]

This isn't smash 2.0, it's smash 3.0

 

[Proven]

Nintendo.com reconized them both as fighting games.

and in many respects 64 and melee had a lot of aspects which could make it a good competitive fighter.


Looking at whats in brawl, it's almost like sakurai hates competitive gamers. lol

Smash is a game made within a fighting game construct. Therefore, you classify it as a fighting game. It doesn't mean it's a great competitive fighting game, or that it's a great party fighting game, until it's made and played, but it's genre classification does not tell all about any game.

 

[Aesir]

alright point taken lol.

 

[zomg]

I think when I grow up to Sakurai's age I will probably look back and laugh at myself for not finding tripping entertaining. I just wish I could enjoy it now u_u

Can anyone say they Love the idea? I mean do any of you guys not find it the least bit annoying? q:

Its hilarious because it pisses everyone off when it happens. Hell, it pisses ME off and I still like the idea.

 

[thumbswayup]

tripping is ridiculous. happens to me all the time. sometimes it is funny, as when it does not affect the outcome of a match, but when it's a match decider it is bull****. it's not as funny as watching captain falcon drown. go to delphino plaza, start swimming, then dont do anything for a couple of seconds. c falcon will start waving his hands in the air to stay afloat (already freaking hilarious) then he'll submerge and fall slowly to his death, with one hand around his neck. i got a huge laugh out of that the first time i saw it.

 

[zerosin]

Brawl's completely new to us. As Plainrkk, said, the community will have to change it from party to competitive. I will admit, I didn't like Melee until I learned advanced techs because they changed the entire dimension of the game. you could know the techs, but unless you added a little flair, they were just another thing in the game. Wavedashing doesn't make someone 1337 after all.
I did not play pro players, so I'm not an absolute expert, but I had some interesting experiences with Melee. A couple of my friends and I used advanced techs and we came to the conclusion that it gave Melee versatility and uniqueness from some other fighters. At the same time, I had a friend who played Fox in a manner similar to Aniki playing Link. He didn't use advanced techs at all, but he was aggressive and knew his fox well enough to give us a challenge (that makes me mediocre, I guess >.<)
Right now, that same friend is better than me and a couple others by a little bit in Brawl because he doesn't worry about the techs. However, Brawl's new. I mean, I just got it on Sunday >,< and I suck. But, as time passes, the competitive side will grow and transform it. The same happened to Melee and 64.
Sakurai also gave us competitive people a chance to exercise our skill with the Item Switch option. We don't like items; turn 'em off. 'Nuff said.
Again, I was mediocre at best, so I'm not a complete expert. I kinda agree with Plairnkk though: Brawl (at this very moment) is a very limited game. We'll see what the community provides.

 

[Gilgamesh]

This is a competitive players forum.

Hmm no, you're wrong.

 

[Egret]

, I had a friend who played Fox in a manner similar to Aniki playing Link. He didn't use advanced techs at all, but he was aggressive and knew his fox well enough to give us a challenge

That makes him completely different from Aniki.

 

[Mess]

Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.

lol. Elitism much?

 

[Plairnkk]

Nah, realism

 

[cyclone248i]

lol lurk the word elitism, plox.


I'm sry that people thinking that cuz adv. techs from Melee are automatically makes them good. I know it closes a gap and only takes an idiot to say different. (Unless you're a Melee pro with Pit/Metaknight...mindgames + hax are too good)

 

[unknownforce]

I won't comment on this thread, but I do want to play you Plank. PM me your AIM so we can arrange a game sometime. I'm trying to add all the MD/VA players whom I never get to see these days.

 

[Samochan]

Newbies who think the only reason melee pros prospered was because of the glitches. We were good because we have the competitive attitude and implement what it takes to win. That's why we'll still win.

lol. Elitism much?

Lol gotta love these players that seemingly desperately try to look for a way to call people better than them elitists. ^^

Pretty much failed and not only cause Mess pretty much interpret the quote from Plairnkk totally wrong but also seemingly doesn't know what elitism actually means. >_>

 

[Plairnkk]

I won't comment on this thread, but I do want to play you Plank. PM me your AIM so we can arrange a game sometime. I'm trying to add all the MD/VA players whom I never get to see these days.

I don't really play online because I don't want it to hurt my game from losing the timing of specific things due to the awful lag on there. However sometimes when I'm at kaisers I play on his wifi for fun.

My aim is dream thieve, let me know urs cuz my budyd list is set to private and i have to add people to put them on there.

P.S. feel free to comment on the title - I didn't write that it was unbiased i wrote it considered both sides. I've considered the other side, I wrote their arguments and wrote about their techs. I just, simply, don't agree with them.

 

[Yuna]

I won't comment on this thread, but I do want to play you Plank. PM me your AIM so we can arrange a game sometime. I'm trying to add all the MD/VA players whom I never get to see these days.

You are very awesome for still using the banner I made for you over a year and two months ago :D. *high fives*

In other news, Melee was meant to be a Party Game as well. Doesn't mean we didn't make it into a competitive fighter by playing it in a way Sakurai didn't really intend for it to be played (not that he minded, I'm sure). If Brawl has what it takes, we'll do it with Brawl as well. If not, too bad.

We cannot change what's already been programmed into the game. Only Sakurai can do that (if he even wants to).

I never go onto these boards and simply state that Brawl sucks. I just point out its flaws if it's needed (like if someone's lying or spreading misinformation). Don't like it? Well, it's what we know so far about Brawl. We cannot magically make it better if the metagame is limited. If this changes through us finding a lot of new things, then, well, yay! If not, then suck it up. It's life, live with it. Flaming us for telling it like it is won't magically make the game better.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Good thread Plank. I hope this streamlines some of the discussion and curtails the flame wars that are destroying these boards...

 

[Pikaville]

I think that players who play even somewhat competitively are the ones most "disapointed" with brawl.(loose statement)The casual gamers wont care anywhere near as much.I understand that some elements of brawl do hinder a greater metagame(so far as we know)but im sure we'll adjust or find loads of stuff to make it all better.I mean how changed was the metagame when some luigi player discovered how to wavedash?Im sure more vital stuff,probably just as important and advancing as wavedashing etc will be discovered in brawl.Plus at least Halo 3 got nerfed the worst.No more BXR,BXB etc.

 

[ErciChewman]

*Scrubscribes*



no seriously though, there is no debating on whether this game was intended to be a party game, the answer is a resounding Yes. Any game designer that purposefully places something as foolish as tripping into a game is clearly not taking the game's competitive aspect seriously...at all. I can't describe how many times I've gone to tech chase after someone and tripped and wasn't able to capitalize because of it.
It's hard to not be annoyed when trying to take this game seriously because it's so "fun". It is fun, it's fun and annoying. It's also boring as hell. I took work off this week so i could play the game thoroughly, and i can hardly play it for more than an hour or two before turning it off. It's too easy. Although the cpu's are 100 times better than melee's, i still get no satisfaction from playing them. Playing with a bunch of friends is fun (all my friends were melee scrubs), but there it is, a party game.

I'm hopeful that things will change, but like most, doubt it.

I'll even go to big tournies for Brawl, and it will be competitive, just not the same level. And scrubs keep saying "derr wat do u meen not saym levl, it wil b moor competitive cuz Brawl=awsum!" When WE say "not the same level" it means all of our tournies have same top five or so players in the finals, in brawl, I guarentee many of our top players will also be there, but instead of the same top 5, it'll be more like the same top 25 or 30 or more. There won't be a set elite group anymore.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

Soooo... for competitions, even characters is bad?
(sorry for the question, I just don't get it, I understand the "tier system" but how is more balanced characters a bad thing?)

 

[unknownforce]

I don't really play online because I don't want it to hurt my game from losing the timing of specific things due to the awful lag on there. However sometimes when I'm at kaisers I play on his wifi for fun.

My aim is dream thieve, let me know urs cuz my budyd list is set to private and i have to add people to put them on there.

P.S. feel free to comment on the title - I didn't write that it was unbiased i wrote it considered both sides. I've considered the other side, I wrote their arguments and wrote about their techs. I just, simply, don't agree with them.

Ah, a worthy point. The lag is indeed quite bad, and it does play a role with timing. I agree that wifi play is meant for fun more than anything else, but it is certainly nice to have the opportunity to once again play against many of the cool smashers I have met over the years, and hopefully meet many new players in the process. I just wish that technology would allow for better connections... At the rate technology is progressing, I assume it won't be too long from now that one day all games will be lag free.

My aim is Xeno171, so I'll go ahead and add you, in case you ever want to play sometime. Maybe we'll get lucky and it won't lag too much.

Allow me to clarify that I in no way disagree with this thread, I simply meant that I did not feel it was pertinent to share my opinion here. I probably should have been more clear, but I was in a rush and wrote my prior post rather quickly.

I don't object to sharing my viewpoint if you'd like to hear at another time.

Yuna, I'm happy to still use your sig after all this time. I still feel sick that I had to miss such a wonderful event and the chance to visit Sweden, but I was there in spirit.

 

[pockyD]

Soooo... for competitions, even characters is bad?
(sorry for the question, I just don't get it, I understand the "tier system" but how is more balanced characters a bad thing?)

nothing wrong with character balance, though part of linkin park's argument was that there will be even LESS character balance because of character-specific techs prevailing over universal techs, leading to chars with exploitable techs being the only playable ones

 

[GreenKirby]

You are very awesome for still using the banner I made for you over a year and two months ago :D. *high fives*

In other news, Melee was meant to be a Party Game as well. Doesn't mean we didn't make it into a competitive fighter by playing it in a way Sakurai didn't really intend for it to be played (not that he minded, I'm sure). If Brawl has what it takes, we'll do it with Brawl as well. If not, too bad.

We cannot change what's already been programmed into the game. Only Sakurai can do that (if he even wants to).

I never go onto these boards and simply state that Brawl sucks. I just point out its flaws if it's needed (like if someone's lying or spreading misinformation). Don't like it? Well, it's what we know so far about Brawl. We cannot magically make it better if the metagame is limited. If this changes through us finding a lot of new things, then, well, yay! If not, then suck it up. It's life, live with it. Flaming us for telling it like it is won't magically make the game better.

This is why I respect you. You acknowledge that both Brawl AND Melee are meant to be party games first and foremost. I don't know why others who prefer Melee over Brawl couldn't see that as well.

 

[Darkslash]

Funny I nicked named Wolf to

"Trip Miester" if any one knows why i give them a cookie

 

[Chro]

If it's a party game, or if it's not, who the hell cares? Is it FUN? THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS. NOBODY CARES if it's "supposed" to be a party game. I play to beat my friends. And HAVE FUN. A very small demographic of the Smash-playing community makes money off playing it.

If people want to make it a competitive game... then they will. It is absolutely irrelevant what they changed or added. The game is different. It's a sequel, yes, but I think it's more fun. So there.

 

[Basara]

In the 2001 when melee came out , it was mario party fighting edition............
brawl has a little little out there , so lets wait a lot lot lots more , because it takes time to discover and take out all the potential of a game.....

and finally come on , MK , has only 2 killing moves , up b and foward smash , pit has back air , foward air , foward smash , up smash , and his ridicoulus powerfull-- quicly arrows , and dont forget the -> b , i hate that move....

 

[Wuss]

If it's a party game, or if it's not, who the hell cares? Is it FUN? THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS. NOBODY CARES if it's "supposed" to be a party game. I play to beat my friends. And HAVE FUN. A very small demographic of the Smash-playing community makes money off playing it.

If people want to make it a competitive game... then they will. It is absolutely irrelevant what they changed or added. The game is different. It's a sequel, yes, but I think it's more fun. So there.

true that a small portion of smash players make money. However, it is NOT irrelevant what they changed from melee to brawl. If sakurai adds elements that add randomness, that takes away from the game being a competitive game. If he takes away parts that gave melee a great metagame, then he is lowering brawl's potential to be competitive. What he changes has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not brawl will be a good competitive game or not.