Brawl Information Compendium & Social

[ぱみゅ]

Some pummels do, like Jigglypuff and anything slower.
Faster ones, like Wolf and Lucario, will only count as one.

 

[Demna]

Some pummels do, like Jigglypuff and anything slower.
Faster ones, like Wolf and Lucario, will only count as one.

Is there an exact pummel staleness list that includes every character?

 

[Heartstring]

Some pummels do, like Jigglypuff and anything slower.
Faster ones, like Wolf and Lucario, will only count as one.

Really? Thats new to me. Tell me, if a fast pummeling character does their slower, will it begin to count as individual hits for staling?

 

[NickRiddle]

If a very fast pummeling character slows down, each one enters the queue.

 

[KAP22714]

Afaik if you buffer a pummel, it will not enter the stale move counter. If you don't, then it will.

 

[Heartstring]

If a very fast pummeling character slows down, each one enters the queue.

Cool, thanks dude. shiet 4 years in and I'm still learning new things

 

[Jamwa]

So does that mean if i buffered a pummel on Lucas, it would do 3% each time? or would it stale once and do maybe 2.5% for every other time?

 

[Pikabunz]

It'd do 3% each time. Lucas' pummel is op.

 

[Nikes]

Not directly Brawl related, but what do people do in their scenes to make tournaments more exciting, and generate more interest in attending? I'm running a local for my first time in place of our normal TO this coming weekend and our scenes becoming less interested in smash. I've been trying to revive it but don't really know what to do there either. Barely anyone even watches GFs anymore >_>

 

[KAP22714]

Host a chat room for your local scene and make everybody join and then create rivalries/crews etc etc

Chat room worked pretty well for our scene. Also, lots of GOOD advertising will get you places

 

[Deleted member 189823]

^Nice advice, for a dying scene.

Irrelevant:

What are the inputs for mashing out of a Grab, quickly?

 

[Demna]

What are the inputs for mashing out of a Grab, quickly?

While holding the Analog stick in a direction, mash the D-pad and tap the C-stick in a direction. Every input gets you closer to a grab break, while holding the analog stick, each C-stick tap counts as 3 inputs instead of one, and mashing the D-pad also adds inputs in a more efficient manner. What I do is hold the analog stick leftwards using my left finger, mash the D-pad using my left thumb, and tapping the c-stick using my right thumb. This is the most effective way to get out of a grab from what I know.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Thank you, I'll try that.

 

[Pikabunz]

Mashing the dpad doesn't do anything unless you assign each direction to an action other than taunt. You generally want to mash as many buttons as you can as fast as you can.

 

[CURRY]

How do you air release from a grab?

 

[NickRiddle]

Press jump while mashing, and don't get released during a pummel animation.

 

[CURRY]

Press jump while mashing, and don't get released during a pummel animation.

... lolololol. So mash cstick, analog stick, dpad, AND the jump button for air release?
So a person is allowed two inputs of button mashing for grab releasing per frame, right?

 

[NickRiddle]

You input jump one time.
As long as you're not released during a pummel, one jump input during the entire mashing process gets you air-released.

 

[Phan7om]

I know this will probably come off as super scrubby, but thats why im asking it.

Ive been told that to get better all I would need to really work on is my bait and read game. I know what it is and everything, and I always try to use it in my gameplay yet I still get bodied by good players. What exactly can I do to improve this the fastest? Is it all just experience or is there some trick. I understand how to read a player much more than how to bait them to do something. In my head, it would seem that I would have to completely download someone before I could bait their habits or whatever. What are some tricks/techniques you guys to to bait a player to do something? I feel like I completely understand the idea of baiting (such as how you could bait some marths to up-b oos and punish them afterwards), but when I try to do it I just look like a complete noob. Im doing something wrong, but dont know what.

 

[Heartstring]

I know this will probably come off as super scrubby, but thats why im asking it.

Ive been told that to get better all I would need to really work on is my bait and read game. I know what it is and everything, and I always try to use it in my gameplay yet I still get bodied by good players. What exactly can I do to improve this the fastest? Is it all just experience or is there some trick. I understand how to read a player much more than how to bait them to do something. In my head, it would seem that I would have to completely download someone before I could bait their habits or whatever. What are some tricks/techniques you guys to to bait a player to do something? I feel like I completely understand the idea of baiting (such as how you could bait some marths to up-b oos and punish them afterwards), but when I try to do it I just look like a complete noob. Im doing something wrong, but dont know what.

Alright, to be honest I'm probably not the best person to ask, but here goes:

First off: There really isn't any shortcuts or tricks to learning how to read people, it takes a long time of understanding it. and its very difficult to explain it properly.

(From here, I'm going to assume you main kirby due to your avatar)

Secondly: If you do understand how to bait&punish, but it isnt working. Then there is a high chance that the baiting isn't the problem, Your fundamental gameplay is just bad. Why would - for example - a marth panic and Up-B OOS when you've given them no good reason to be scared of you? if you're blindly approaching without spacing correctly so that you get shieldgrabbed/Dtilted/etc. every time, Why on earth would they be scared of you the next time you get close?

Thirdly: How I think about it is you have to cover the option that you think your opponent is going to take after you do something. It's really hard to read in a neutral situation though. I'll give you an example:

You (as kirby) D-throw falco @ ~50%. too high to combo off, but too low for the falco to be largely safe and has to make a decision immediately.

In this sort of scenario, the falco (aswell as any other character in the game) has 3 core options: Airdodge, Attack, or Jump-away

Now, if you wait on the ground, you can freely punish the falco if they decide to Airdodge or or attack, but jumping away gets them out of there for free. But if you decide to chase and attack, their Jump-away gets stuffed and possibly their attack attempt too, but they can just airdodge and get to the ground safely.

Of course, I'm generalising it massively, every character has branching options that are more extensive than just these 3 options. But you get what I'm trying to say here: Cover the option(s) that your opponent tends to use the most, you're most likely going to get rewarded.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You turn a teapot into a fish, then give Shaya a phonecall.


It might cost you some monopoly money and a few dingo dollars in the process, but she'll hook you up with the good stuff.

 

[Jamwa]

Baiting is just punishing an opponent after you've conditioned them.

As Lucas, I like to SH Fair a lot on the spot, and when I actually approach, to a FH Dair. They thought I was going to Fair, and so they SH, but when I FH they miss and I hit.
Condition and punish. Simple stuff, but there's so many ways to do it.

I'd say after a D-throw that any punish is a read. Unless, if on the past 2 Dthrows you caught Falco before he attacked or airdodged, and on the 3rd Dthrow you wait for him to airdodge/attack, that's more like a bait.

 

[Phan7om]

Secondly: If you do understand how to bait&punish, but it isnt working. Then there is a high chance that the baiting isn't the problem, Your fundamental gameplay is just bad. Why would - for example - a marth panic and Up-B OOS when you've given them no good reason to be scared of you? if you're blindly approaching without spacing correctly so that you get shieldgrabbed/Dtilted/etc. every time, Why on earth would they be scared of you the next time you get close?

First off thanks, I think i understand it a little better... but im still kinda confused. Ill give you a scenario.

1st match.Me (as Kirby) is fighting Marth. I approach him and I realize that the first I get close to him when Im at low % he tries to grab/sheildgrab, so next time I approach I pretend im going to B-air and then i FF crouch. Marth's grab goes over Kirby's head and I react to it and punish with a small string of moves. I realize this and figure that next time I approach he will attack instead of trying to grab. So I approach again at low % with a walk up/run up sheild expecting an attack, he grabs again. So i figure that every time im at low %s and I approach I can bait him to try to grab me. Next I try high %s. I approach him when his back is to the ledge, he rolls behind me and attempts to up-b. Since I was sheilding it didnt work, but now i know that at high %s he'll try to kill be with a safe attack to knock me into the closest blast-zone. So as of now, I thought I had him read. I approach again at low %s and this time he up-bs me. So now im thinking, "oh hes adapting" so I have to adapt as well. For the rest of the match, he's countering my every approach and I cant even get close to him. And for the rest of the matches he 2-3 stocks me and I cant even find a pattern with his attack/defense options. After the matches are over he says something like "GG, work on your bait and read game and you could be a lot better." So now im confused thinking "I was trying to read and bait him, and then he read and baited me. My spacing was good, I played the matchup decent, yet he downloaded me way quicker than I could even start to download him."

So then I come to the boards and seek assistance.

 

[1PokeMastr]

The only way you get better at reading/ baiting is through experience.

You're probably not picking the most optimal options to punish what you bait from him, and you're probably dropping the reads.

Again, the only way to get better, is by playing the game and practicing.

 

[Heartstring]

First off thanks, I think i understand it a little better... but im still kinda confused. Ill give you a scenario.
(Scenario)
So then I come to the boards and seek assistance.

As the guy above me said: 'You're probably not picking the most optimal options to punish what you bait from him,'
That's about as correct as it can get, Yeah you're making the reads, but the option you're picking is going to punish their predicted option and ONLY that predicted option. stick to your best options. as kirby your best options are some combination of dodges, shields, Grabs and Bair...really, thats about it.

 

[CURRY]

Using the Claw method of holding controller, what button is usually used for grab, and with what finger/what part of the finger? Using X to jump, it seems a bit hard to use Y for grab, both using index finger... especially because I main a character with a tether, and sometimes I need to shorthop -> tether.

So yeah, can a person with a tether character in Brawl say if using Y to tether is easy enough, or if they just keep using Z or some other button?

 

[1PokeMastr]

I use default controls, and I only claw for Y, so I can full hop aerial or double jump buffer aerial.

My Index finger shares the function for Y/ Z (I never press R, ever)

Just use whatever feels most natural for you.

 

[CURRY]

I use default controls, and I only claw for Y, so I can full hop aerial or double jump buffer aerial.

My Index finger shares the function for Y/ Z (I never press R, ever)

Just use whatever feels most natural for you.

Well I guess the central question is:
As a person holding the GC using claw, does it feel "natural" for you to shorthop, then press the Y button? Like, is it uncomfortable or difficult to execute?

 

[infiniteV115]

Claw will feel unnatural at first but if you commit to using it often enough, you'll get used to it to the point that it feels natural

Or you could short hop tether with X --> L+A. Again you'll have to get used to it I guess
Or, if any of your shoulder buttons (L/R/Z) have redundant inputs (eg on default controls both L and R are shield), you could change the one you don't use to grab and use that, and get used to using only the other for shielding.
Is your Z not set to grab anymore? If it is, just use X + Z. You'll also have to get used to this.

So basically find a way to get used to something that works for you or find a way to deal with being incapable of comfortable SH zairing...I recommend the former XD

 

[1PokeMastr]

Feels as natural as breathing.

 

[Heartstring]

Claw feels painful to me, Fingers actively dont stretch that far.
What would be the reason for clawing anyways?

 

[KAP22714]

Switch Z to jump and Y to grab, then you can jump with index finger still and shorthop buffer anything without any effort or w/e

Just make sure you actually press the jump button or you'll fast fall dair and die unless you're MK in which case **** u

 

[CURRY]

Switch Z to jump and Y to grab, then you can jump with index finger still and shorthop buffer anything without any effort or w/e

Just make sure you actually press the jump button or you'll fast fall dair and die unless you're MK in which case **** u

lololol That seems nice. I'll try using Z to jummp. That's gonna be a hella ton to do for a setup on a wii that's not mine though >.> (impatient people sigh)

MOAR QUESTIONS. It seems that QCSDI and HCSDI (I don't know which is used for what lol) is easier than dual stick SDI; it's pretty hard to tap in the same direction really really fast. I found that mashing both sticks gets me out of a smart bomb than anything else. -.-
So yeah, QCSDI/HCSDI vs Dual Stick SDI. Which should I use? It seems that after practice, the QCSDI and HCSDI might be easier to execute, while most people can't improve the skill of their spammy finger for Dual Stick. Dual Stick also takes a bit of thinking about which way you want to go, while QCSDI/HCSDI just seems like mashing in a general direction?

If Dual Stick is not really a known term, which I don't know if it is... then here
http://smashboards.com/threads/dual...ntum-cancelling-and-sdi.315154/#post-13758573

 

[infiniteV115]

You should use dual stick SDI because it requires fewer inputs overall, but I guess it does pose the problem of having more difficult (albeit fewer) inputs. As for choosing the directions about which way to go, that's something you get used to with dual stick SDI (or, at least, I did).

I suggest you keep at dual stick SDI and improve at it, but it depends; if you're successfully SDIing moves with other methods then there's no problem with using those. Not exactly a black/white answer to this question

 

[Pikabunz]

If you're good enough, you should use both.

 

[CURRY]

You should use dual stick SDI because it requires fewer inputs overall, but I guess it does pose the problem of having more difficult (albeit fewer) inputs. As for choosing the directions about which way to go, that's something you get used to with dual stick SDI (or, at least, I did).

I suggest you keep at dual stick SDI and improve at it, but it depends; if you're successfully SDIing moves with other methods then there's no problem with using those. Not exactly a black/white answer to this question

lol yeah so my question was pretty much does the less input by human affecting dual sticking make it overall better or worse than QCSDI/HCSDI?So I'm guessing that QCSDI/HCSDI, although easier to spam, still isn't as effective?

And heh Pikabunz... I'm not good enough... ^-^;;

 

[infiniteV115]

lol yeah so my question was pretty much does the less input by human affecting dual sticking make it overall better or worse than QCSDI/HCSDI?So I'm guessing that QCSDI/HCSDI, although easier to spam, still isn't as effective?

And heh Pikabunz... I'm not good enough... ^-^;;

TL;DR It depends on how much easier QCSDI is for you, it's not a question I can answer. Find out for yourself. I'll explain why below. Though like KPrime (Pikabunz) said, ideally you use them in combination, but it'd probably take a while to get used to coordinating this.

First off, lemme just say that HCSDI is just QCSDI with redundant inputs, so QCSDI is superior. Here's why.

Spoiler: Here's why

Let's say you want to SDI left...
- With QCSDI, the inputs would be up left --> left --> down left --> left, and repeat. So 4 left inputs (and 1 up and 1 down but they cancel each other out so they're irrelevant) per QCSDI rep, and it takes 4 different inputs with your finger. So one left input per finger input, you could say.
- With HCSDI, the inputs would be up --> up left --> left --> down left --> down --> down left --> left --> up left, and repeat. Still 4 left inputs, but now 3 up inputs and 3 down inputs (which still cancel each other out) per HCSDI rep, and it takes 8 inputs with your finger. So 0.5 left inputs per finger input.

Same applies to SDIing diagonally because the additional inputs still cancel each other out. I don't think I need to explain this the same way I explained the above, because it's the same concept. Just think about it. But yeah, since there are only 8 directions in Brawl (4 diagonal and 4 cardinal), this applies to whatever direction in which you're trying to SDI

Thus I think it's fair to say that QCSDI is universally better than HCSDI, solely with the exception of the case that you're actually somehow more comfortable with HCSDIing and you do it faster to the point that it overcompensates for the redundant inputs and is actually more efficient than QCSDI. In other words, your finger inputs are much faster with HCSDI than with QCSDI. This sounds absurd to me, but I suppose it's possible.

So now let's compare QCSDI with DSSDI.

Spoiler: Comparison

I already explained what you would do to QCSDI left.
To DSSDI left, you would press (and hold) up+left on the analog stick, then spam down+left on the C-stick. Because of the dual-stick mechanics mentioned in the thread you posted here earlier, each C-stick input would lead to up+left --> down+left, so basically 2 left inputs. You also get the single initial up+left input from when you started holding that direction on the analog, assuming this occurred during the SDI window of an attack. So in total, 2 left inputs per finger input, and potentially a bonus up+left input.

So 1 left input per finger input, vs 2 left inputs per finger input. In theory DSSDI is better, but in reality people are probably making those finger inputs at least a little bit more quickly with the QCSDI (going from up+left --> left with the analog during the QCSDI rotations probably takes a lot less time than hitting the C-stick and then letting it return to neutral)

So really, it comes down to how long it takes for you to complete the QCSDI rep (up+left --> left --> down+left --> left) vs how quickly you can hit the C-stick twice in a row. If the former is faster, QCSDI. If the latter is faster, DSSDI. It's something you have to find out on your own as it's something that varies with the individual; it's not something I can tell you.

One advantage DSSDI objectively has over QCSDI is that it makes it easier for the individual to control both DI and SDI at the same time. For example, let's say you're trying to SDI MK's uairs to the left. With DSSDI inputs, if the MK decided to finish off the combo with a shuttle loop, you'd still DI it well because you're holding up+left. With QCSDI inputs, however, if the shuttle loop connects, you more or less have a 3/4 chance of DIing it poorly (the two left inputs and the one down+left input would all produce pretty bad DI) and 1/4 chance (up+left) of DIing it well.

 

[Jamwa]

So reading In shield SDI, I got confused.

If I angle my shield forward, and then C-stick up as I am in shield lag, I will move forward and then grab correct? but if i angled my shield forward and C-stick up during the shield lag, I would move twice as much forward and then grab.
Is there any frame disadvantage to this as opposed to a shield grab? Is the 2 inputs of SDI laggier than the 1?
I'm wondering if this would help me grab GaW's bair or something annoying like a retreating SH fair from MK

 

[infiniteV115]

No. When an attack hits your shield you go through 2 stages; shieldlag (when you can in-shield SDI) and shieldstun. After shieldstun is over you can do things. If you input a grab during shieldlag, it'll get buffered and the shieldgrab will start after shieldstun is over.

It's either that or you can start doing things during the later portion of shieldstun, but you definitely can't shieldgrab during shieldlag and thus it won't take any longer.

 

[KAP22714]

it's shield hit lag bro