• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl+: Director's Cut -- Thoughts?

adrahil

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
25
Location
NC
There has been a bit of a debate over the use of custom made characters in Brawl+. The official WBR position is that Custom characters will never, ever, ever, EVER be a part of WBR endorsed B+. And that's fine. That is their position and they are welcome to it. However with the popularity of the new custom character utility PSA and the Clone Engine and maybe a model importer somewhere on the horizon, it seems that eventually there are going to be some very polished custom characters sometime down the line. As such, many people are interested in seeing a few of the characters who ended up on the cutting room floor put back into the game. Brawl+: Director's Cut would be a project intended to give tournament operators interested in hosting Tournies with custom characters a standard build and ruleset in which to use them.

Please note that I have no interest in beginning this project until a stable clone engine is introduced. Currently custom characters are completely unviable in tournament use due to the lack of one. Characters which require a custom model (ex. M2) will not be included until a stable model hacking engine is introduced.

There are several problems facing such a project, which the WBR are unwilling to deal with. First and foremost it seems, is balance. A character must be balanced in order to be included in the cast, and there is some concern that a new character dropped in with a couple of good matchups will upset people who suffer a poor matchup. There are a few problems with this logic. One is that in a balanced game, either each character must have a decent proportion of good and bad matchups, or all matchups must be equal. The latter is obviously not true in either vBrawl or B+, as such we must assume that balance is obtained by having a good proportion of good and bad matchups.

With such a large cast, an introduction of a select few characters after a large amount of playtesting by the public would hardly give anyone a huge advantage. vB/B+ are both games in which maining a single character is not advisable. Characters all have varying matchups and having a character or two as backup to cover your weaknesses is highly recommended. Anyone with such a setup is not going to be destroyed by any new characters. The plan is not to introduce a bunch of metaknights.

The overall number of allowable custom characters is up for debate, but somewhere between 4 and 8 seems reasonable. This is not an attempt to turn Brawl into Mugen. The obvious first few choices would be those cut from Melee: Doc, Roy, M2, Pichu, possibly YL? Whether or not completely new characters would be allowed is entirely up for debate. I personally would be content just to see the reinclusion of the melee cast.

Characters would initially appear in a nightly 'alpha' build, which would not be approved for tourney use. After extensive playtesting they would be approved for use in the official beta version. They will be introduced one at a time, until all characters make it into the official beta build. Additional playtesting will be done until eventually a gold version is agreed upon. This will likely not happen until well after a gold version of B+ is maintained.

Onto distribution: The B+:DC project would simply be maintained by updating a .rar with the latest Brawl+ gct, updated with any necessary codes for the clone engine, model importers, etc etc. It would also include paths and the proper .pacs for the custom characters. It would simply be extracted to the root of the SD and you would be good to go. The official post for it will also contain any relevant tournament rules that need updating from the WBR ruleset. This file would be updated whenever Brawl+ official build is updated, as well as whenever an update for the custom characters is needed. Much like B+, there will likely be several builds towards the beginning, slowing down as things balance out later on.

Another problem is that .pacs are easily editable, so there is the problem of people making custom pacs and trying to bring them to tournies. This is easily remediable by having the TO require anyone bringing a build to back up their SD card and then completely clear it, bringing it to the tournament blank. The TO can then copy the standard set to each SD card individually, taking perhaps 2 or 3 minutes.

This project, of course, depends on public support, which is the primary purpose of this thread. Would you be interested in seeing something like this in the future?

tl;dr
Are you interested in a brawl+ build with standardized, balanced custom characters? If so, show some support and share your questions and ideas.
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
=3=;
1)The "ever" should be taken with a grain of salt.
2)If you want to overcome the "ever", you need to stay with the WBR and slowly work the customs in over time, using tournament results and peer pressure.
3)We don't have everything required to even make the DC, so this topic would be best reposted in the future.

-DD
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
You guys are really adamant about getting the melee characters in aren't you <_<
I can't believe you guys are even talking about including these characters right now! Remember that you have to compare them to ALREADY EXISTING CHARACTERS. Characters with fluid animations, matching sounds and voices, announcer calls, end game poses, and a variety of nuances that aren't even touched with some of the best character mods so far! Bring this back up when we can't tell the difference between nintendo created characters and publicly created characters! At least then you'll have some foundation to stand on sheesh <_<
 

hotdogturtle

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,503
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between "being able to use your own custom characters" and "having custom characters be officially approved by the back room".
 

adrahil

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
25
Location
NC
We still hold the cards. lmao.
What a juvenile response. I am not trying to hold any 'cards.' This is not a power struggle. It is an attempt to offer an alternative for people that do not agree with the given decision. I am just gauging interest and floating ideas.
 

Sanu

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
2,179
What a juvenile response. I am not trying to hold any 'cards.' This is not a power struggle. It is an attempt to offer an alternative for people that do not agree with the given decision. I am just gauging interest and floating ideas.
Yeah, although I'm apathetic to this project; that response sort was all sorts of immature :laugh:

Good ole high and mighty WBR
 

Slashy

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
1,402
Location
Palm Beach
Here is my list of guidelines you should follow for this project:

1. Two month grace period after a character is released to ensure stability and balance

2. They must be playable in all normal forms of play, this includes being able to use items (only final smash is the exception), having colours for team play. There can be glitches, but they either must be rare, or extremely minor

3. The team must use many tools available to make their character appear unique or seamless in starting gameplay and during gameplay. This includes custom models, textures, animations, and voices. Each character must be as unique as reasonable considering the limitations. If a character is missing one of the above, they won't be counted.


Because of step 3, your list of viable custom characters can be shortened down significantly, for reference here is a list of characters who can actually be seamless due to having announcer calls

Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, Lyn, Dark Samus, Ridley, Mega Man, Isaac, Krystal, Tails, Jody Summer, King K. Rool, Micaiah, Felix, Jenna, Miis, Bowser Jr.

Or as I call them the "Wanted 18". This should help with your decisions for characters beyond those who were in Melee/DX.
 

Lemon?

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Portugal
I guess once you cant actually tell the difference between player created chars and chars created by nintendo, we could actually think about including chars in brawl+, provided they are at least somewhat balanced. But people have just begun creating new characters, its too early to start thinking about including them in brawl+ ...

We still hold the cards. lmao.
LOLwbr ......
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
DD's post is correct.

I wouldn't say never, ever, ever, ever for anything in Brawl+ -- while it's solidifying at an exponentially faster rate towards Gold, the project is always open to the possibility of change. This is its blessing. This is its curse.

However, until such a time as a new character is polished to the level of quality and balance as the currently existing characters and the community near-universally wants its inclusion in the tourney scene, and we have all of the tools to do so, there's not really any point in arguing about this.

Of course, the power is always in the TOs to decide what to do.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
We still hold the cards. lmao.
Really? That was your post? Thanks for making us look like tools.

We'll see what happens down the road but at the moment in time there are no plans to release a set that is fully endorsed by the WBR that will have custom characters and be a tourney standard. Continue to watch this post I might have more info down the road.
 

Firus

You know what? I am good.
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
7,681
Location
Virginia
NNID
OctagonalWalnut
3DS FC
0619-4291-4974
We still hold the cards. lmao.
Yeah, I think it's already been said, but seriously? This response is totally unnecessary and immature, and I resent it. Yes, you're the WBR, whoop-de-friggin'-doo.

Too many people seem to be missing the fact that adrahil is presenting this as a non-WBR-approved thing. The SBR hasn't banned MK, but there are still NMK tourneys. I would consider custom character tourneys to be the same sort of matter. I fully support and understand the fact that the WBR's official rules don't allow for custom characters, but no one's asking the WBR to condone them, just to not shoot them down as "lolnothappening".

Look how hacking started out; the "No Tripping" code was released and there was a heated debate where people kept insisting and insisting that the SBR would never condone hacking in its official rules. So what happened?

This forum! People took the hacks and decided to make their own competitive community out of it, and now there's a whole new BRoom for it.

I can't say that I think custom characters will become just as popular, but I really don't see why everyone has to immediately shut it down and say "Yeah WBR doesn't like this give it up already".

And hell, I don't even go to tourneys. I just think it's a cool idea. It won't be easy, but no one's asking anyone who doesn't want to help to help.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
Yeah, I think it's already been said, but seriously? This response is totally unnecessary and immature, and I resent it. Yes, you're the WBR, whoop-de-friggin'-doo.

Too many people seem to be missing the fact that adrahil is presenting this as a non-WBR-approved thing. The SBR hasn't banned MK, but there are still NMK tourneys. I would consider custom character tourneys to be the same sort of matter. I fully support and understand the fact that the WBR's official rules don't allow for custom characters, but no one's asking the WBR to condone them, just to not shoot them down as "lolnothappening".

Look how hacking started out; the "No Tripping" code was released and there was a heated debate where people kept insisting and insisting that the SBR would never condone hacking in its official rules. So what happened?

This forum! People took the hacks and decided to make their own competitive community out of it, and now there's a whole new BRoom for it.

I can't say that I think custom characters will become just as popular, but I really don't see why everyone has to immediately shut it down and say "Yeah WBR doesn't like this give it up already".

And hell, I don't even go to tourneys. I just think it's a cool idea. It won't be easy, but no one's asking anyone who doesn't want to help to help.
People didn't want to remove tripping? ****ing morons.
 

Nybb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
399
Location
Victoria, BC
And hell, I don't even go to tourneys.
I think this is the problem. Just because the WBR doesn't officially approve of custom characters, that doesn't in any way affect friendlies/casual play. Use as many custom characters as you want in friendlies; I sure will. I just don't want them in official tournaments with money on the line.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Just disregard what Neko says, it makes us look bad but doesn't represent anyone else in the WBR >_>

With that said, I dont think incorporating custom characters is truly a good idea, at least for anything official. First, is the method of incorporating a new character. Aside from requiring new codes to smoothly add a character to the game, there is the impossible decision of deciding who to incorporate. Regardless of whatever power is making the decisions, it comes down all to a mode of bias in which everyone is out for themselves in terms of pushing for their new character or a friends character. Incorporating any new character to the game and calling them balanced from the get go is also laughable. None of the characters made thus far, maybe barring Roy, have been even remotely close to balanced. I'm not trying to discredit anyones work, but it just seems like finding balance, nonbiased character incorporate, and the preservation of brawl+ competitive reputation isn't truly feasible for a game designed to be the superior competitive brother to a bad game.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just my opinion on it all.
 

...:::VILE:::...

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
786
A whole bunch of new chars will be added to brawl (and made as balanced as closely to brawls standards) in a project thats happening. Plus people can just use models with the official gameplay.
 

superyoshi888

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,026
I really love Neko.

I think it's been decided that the only characters people want in now are Melee chars/forbidden 7. Basically, Doc, Roy, M2, Pichu(only some of us ;.; ), Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda/Sheik(heck yeah), Prai and Mai(Plusle and Minun, according to some people), annnd....someone I'm probably forgetting about.
 

colored blind

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
398
Location
Purdue/West Lafayette
I think it's been decided that the only characters people want in now are Melee chars/forbidden 7. Basically, Doc, Roy, M2, Pichu(only some of us ;.; ), Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda/Sheik(heck yeah), Prai and Mai(Plusle and Minun, according to some people), annnd....someone I'm probably forgetting about.
Uh...

Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, Lyn, Dark Samus, Ridley, Mega Man, Isaac, Krystal, Tails, Jody Summer, King K. Rool, Micaiah, Felix, Jenna, Miis
A lot of people want these in too...These are probably the biggest ones people want that I've heard mentioned. Maybe a few differences, but these are probably the most supported.

Just disregard what Neko says, it makes us look bad but doesn't represent anyone else in the WBR >_>

With that said, I dont think incorporating custom characters is truly a good idea, at least for anything official. First, is the method of incorporating a new character. Aside from requiring new codes to smoothly add a character to the game, there is the impossible decision of deciding who to incorporate. Regardless of whatever power is making the decisions, it comes down all to a mode of bias in which everyone is out for themselves in terms of pushing for their new character or a friends character. Incorporating any new character to the game and calling them balanced from the get go is also laughable. None of the characters made thus far, maybe barring Roy, have been even remotely close to balanced. I'm not trying to discredit anyones work, but it just seems like finding balance, nonbiased character incorporate, and the preservation of brawl+ competitive reputation isn't truly feasible for a game designed to be the superior competitive brother to a bad game.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just my opinion on it all.
I think this is probably the best way to go about it...Maybe, much further down the line, we can talk about something like this, but there are far more important things to concentrate on. The best way to go about it would be to maybe havea hall of fame type thing having the best and most popular custom characters that everyone knows about so people have some rudimentary knowledge of the most likely characters to be even worth considering.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
What's wrong with Neko?

That line was badass nuff said.
But seriously guys I'd only EVER consider the Melee characters and all if they have new models.
 

Slashy

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
1,402
Location
Palm Beach
Slashy said:
Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, Lyn, Dark Samus, Ridley, Mega Man, Isaac, Krystal, Tails, Jody Summer, King K. Rool, Micaiah, Felix, Jenna, Miis
No no no no, these are the only characters that are viable to be added, from what I've seen, these are the only ones to have narrator calls.

On another note please change the name of the project to something that doesn't imply that this is the directors' consent. A better name would be Brawl+ Xtra. The name being a reference to the Japanese title.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
A better name would be Brawl+ Xtra. The name being a reference to the Japanese title.
Slashy, how many times do you have to be told that X+ or whatever is not the name of Brawl+ in Japan! That's just the name you want or think it is... omg.
 

Slashy

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
1,402
Location
Palm Beach
I meant a reference to the game's original title. I just made it as a suggestion. I moreso wanted the title of the project to be changed.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
just thought i'd point this out, but the CSS can only handle 50 character slots. unless you find a way to attack a different character to a costume then adding characters to B+ will be very limited... like 7 extra characters max. you can make a list of all the characters you want, but its going to come down to a disappointingly short list of characters that would actually be included at all.
 

SnowballBob33

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
559
Location
Maryland
Cool idea. B+ is already changing brawl, you might as well milk this hacking for all its got. As long as the characters are balanced and have a distinct difference from their original model, it shouldn't be a problem. It doesn't have to be wii mugen either. Just familiar faces like ex-melee people. A problem that could occur though is in colors. Some characters like dark samus possibly who don't have clearly distinct features could cause confusion.
 

Firus

You know what? I am good.
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
7,681
Location
Virginia
NNID
OctagonalWalnut
3DS FC
0619-4291-4974
People didn't want to remove tripping? ****ing morons.
Yeah, apparently hacking is evil and unjust.

\O_o/ Don't ask me.

I think this is the problem. Just because the WBR doesn't officially approve of custom characters, that doesn't in any way affect friendlies/casual play. Use as many custom characters as you want in friendlies; I sure will. I just don't want them in official tournaments with money on the line.
*Sigh*

I'm not asking for them in official tourneys, I thought I made that pretty clear in my post.

I'm SAYING that there's nothing wrong with making separate Brawl+ DX or Xtra or whatever it's going to be called tournaments. I'm SAYING that there's no reason for the WBR to condemn it because people can make their own scene with it.

Unless you have a problem with there being separate tourneys that explicitly say that they're including custom characters, I'm not sure what the problem is.
 

B3Brawler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
128
Location
Edmonton
We still hold the cards. lmao.
And by cards we mean a false sense of authority we think we have over a vast and widespread community over which we have extremely little influence lmao.

Badass line right there.
(Not being sarcastic)


As much as I hate the choice, that line itself was win.
Who are you kidding?

First, It is the most generic (and ill-informed) point used by the WBR in this argument.
Second, It's stated in the most obvious way possible.
Third, he ended it with lol, thus reducing his badass levels by 47%
Eg: I'm here to kick *** and chew bubblegum
Eg2: Lol, I'm here to kick *** and chew bubblegum lol.

rant over lol.
 

superyoshi888

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,026
^ Actually, they have a great amount of influence over the Brawl + community. All "official" B+ tourneys follow the official codesets. But really, they wouldn't have as much influence if people didn't take everything they say as word of god.
 

B3Brawler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
128
Location
Edmonton
It's true. We should all rebel and go to AiB (J/k, but only because AiB is lame)

Anyways I was so busy flaming stupid people that forgot to say that i support this fully. Of course, were one to create a "standardized custom character roster" then it would have to go through some committee and I wouldn't leave that in the hands of the current WBR. (Not everybody in there is lame, i just disagree with a lot of their decisions as a whole.) And for my character biased comment of the day: NO **** DOCTOR MARIO. HE'S A PATHETIC ADDITION TO A GAME THAT ALREADY HAS A SOLID 4 CHARACTERS OF REPRESENTATION.
 

Slashy

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
1,402
Location
Palm Beach
It's true. We should all rebel and go to AiB (J/k, but only because AiB is lame)

Anyways I was so busy flaming stupid people that forgot to say that i support this fully. Of course, were one to create a "standardized custom character roster" then it would have to go through some committee and I wouldn't leave that in the hands of the current WBR. (Not everybody in there is lame, i just disagree with a lot of their decisions as a whole.) And for my character biased comment of the day: NO **** DOCTOR MARIO. HE'S A PATHETIC ADDITION TO A GAME THAT ALREADY HAS A SOLID 4 CHARACTERS OF REPRESENTATION.
You're right, he should definitely be an alternate costume solely, so maybe not a full character, but the Mario Bros. series needs another representative since Pokémon is getting another representative.

I forgot it should be the Wanted 18 BTW, Bowser Jr. is on the list.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
While I hate Brawl+, I see what you are trying to do and support your efforts. In truth, the back room (as I assume that is what WBR is) can only suggest it. It dictates becasue all of those who make tournments adhear to it. You can have Brawl+ rules if you want them. It's the choice of the tournment host. So remember that it is always your call.

Also, one idea may be a board of people who would deem if the character is suitable or not.
Also, can't wait for the day in which animations can be made and models can be imported in.
 

smashbro29

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,470
Location
Brooklyn,NY,USA
NNID
Smashbro29
3DS FC
2724-0750-5127
This would seems sloppy and unofficial and would make it even harder to spread brawl+
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
Who are you kidding?

First, It is the most generic (and ill-informed) point used by the WBR in this argument.
Second, It's stated in the most obvious way possible.
Third, he ended it with lol, thus reducing his badass levels by 47%
Eg: I'm here to kick *** and chew bubblegum
Eg2: Lol, I'm here to kick *** and chew bubblegum lol.
Ya your right. If only he didn't say lol. Eg 1 is cooler than 2.
47% is a bit much, 34% seems right.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
Slashy, how many times do you have to be told that X+ or whatever is not the name of Brawl+ in Japan! That's just the name you want or think it is... omg.
I think he mains Super Smash Brothers Brawl's title in Japan.
 

Superkid11

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
15
Location
Florida
If at any point we're able to insert unique characters with their own models, sounds, ect then this would be a great idea. In the other thread I proposed that a second non-WBR group should be in charge of custom characters going into the game, with a modified Brawl+ to suit it. They would largely host character creation projects contributed to by the general board, not just one person or a small group(though they could review certain notable characters created by one person.)

This could be its first project.
 
Top Bottom