Brawl+: Director's Cut -- Thoughts?

[Dark Sonic]

You guys just won't let that comment go will you <_<.

I've already explained why I think adding in characters is a bad idea in another thread. And even if you don't agree, these kinds of threads can wait until we at least have more proffesional looking characters that are actually made with balance in mind. Roy took FOREVER to balance and is still often considered a little overpowered (favortism dies hard. Nobody really wants to make a mid tier character). Rather than discussing what characters should be added really far down the road (I feel that people don't understand just how long the wait would be between each additional character <_<), we SHOULD be discussing things about the current characters to finalize this set. People SHOULD be commenting on Ganon's uptilt change (possitive or negative), or Marth's physics, or something, instead of having wet dreams about Mewtwo coming back several months from now

 

[Nybb]

*Sigh*

I'm not asking for them in official tourneys, I thought I made that pretty clear in my post.

I'm SAYING that there's nothing wrong with making separate Brawl+ DX or Xtra or whatever it's going to be called tournaments. I'm SAYING that there's no reason for the WBR to condemn it because people can make their own scene with it.

Unless you have a problem with there being separate tourneys that explicitly say that they're including custom characters, I'm not sure what the problem is.

I was kind of trying to get at this; if you are hosting your own events, then yes, do it, the WBR can't and won't try to stop you. I just don't think those tournaments would be very popular...the testing of new characters would have to be extremely rigorous for myself and likely many others to ever consider attending such an event. And such testing would take a very long time.

And I wouldn't say that the WBR "condemns" custom characters either...many of them are involved in making characters themselves.

 

[Rapax]

Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, Lyn, Dark Samus, Ridley, Mega Man, Isaac, Krystal, Tails, Jody Summer, King K. Rool, Micaiah, Felix, Jenna, Miis, Bowser Jr.

Wow. That's interesting... No one loves Saturos... =(
He would be the only character i know so far i would be gald to put in.

But anyway, Melee characters were the last one i putted in. Because they already exist. They are not new or unique or anything. If at all new characters must be thrown in, then absolute new ones. Like Saturos, Tails, Lyn or something. If someone want to play Dr. Mario or Mewtwo, then he should go to play Melee i would say.

They are simply not interesting. I want interesting characters, not remakes!

But thats just my opinion...

 

[timothyung]

Wow. That's interesting... No one loves Saturos... =(
He would be the only character i know so far i would be gald to put in.

But anyway, Melee characters were the last one i putted in. Because they already exist. They are not new or unique or anything. If at all new characters must be thrown in, then absolute new ones. Like Saturos, Tails, Lyn or something. If someone want to play Dr. Mario or Mewtwo, then he should go to play Melee i would say.

They are simply not interesting. I want interesting characters, not remakes!

But thats just my opinion...

Roy vs Ike in Castle Siege plz.

 

[colored blind]

They are simply not interesting. I want interesting characters, not remakes!

But thats just my opinion...

Play Roy. I dare you. Because even though he's a remake, he's one of the most interesting remakes that's out there. He's very obviously Roy from Melee, but he's also markedly different and far more interesting because of it.

Mewtwo would be nice because Brawl just needs more villains.

And you really want Saturos in before Isaac? That's actually pretty unusual.

Regardless, since there is a very finite number of slots that can be used, it becomes very subjective as to which franchises/characters 'deserve' it. For instance, I think that if Roy is in, I think Fire Emblem has reached its fair share of reps, so I wouldn't even really consider Lyn or Micaiah. I also believe that Metroid deserves more reps due to popularity and influenceand as such should either have Dark Samus or Ridley. However, I know other people have far different opinions and would like to see, say, F-Zero have another rep, even though I have no real desire for it. Case in point:

And for my character biased comment of the day: NO **** DOCTOR MARIO. HE'S A PATHETIC ADDITION TO A GAME THAT ALREADY HAS A SOLID 4 CHARACTERS OF REPRESENTATION.

Despite that, and despite my own personal agreement, there are a lot of people who want him in.

Even without balancing, game mechanics, or feasibility, there'll be a massive amount of debate as to which characters even deserve to be considered.

 

[JCaesar]

And I wouldn't say that the WBR "condemns" custom characters either...many of them are involved in making characters themselves.

Please keep this in mind people. And ignore Neko, he be trollin'.

 

[shanus]

People need to not associate the WBR opinions with Neko's. I already made what I thought was a detailed and (while put together quickly) well-thought post on this subject on an earlier page.

 

[Rapax]

Play Roy. I dare you.

Ok, but there are many Roys... So which one?^^

And you really want Saturos in before Isaac? That's actually pretty unusual.

Yeah, it seems so. But he is my favourite character from Golden Sun. =)

For instance, I think that if Roy is in, I think Fire Emblem has reached its fair share of reps, so I wouldn't even really consider Lyn or Micaiah

Hmm, i would like to see a good Black Knight, that would be interesting. But i like Roy also, so it's no problem if there have to be Roy instead of the Black Knight.
But there are (for my taste) just too few villains in the game (who is there? Bowser, Ganondorf, Wario, DDD, "MK" [but he isn't really a villain...], yeah, i think that's it...).

It would be nice to have at least 8 villains. So you could make a small "bad-guys-tournament" ^^

For example:
~Bowser
~Ganondorf
~Wario
~DDD
~MK
~Saturos
~Black Knight
~Ridley or something in that way

At least i would love that =)

 

[camelot]

there are many Roys

No... there is only one Roy. There were 3 originally (mine, tsunami's, and goodoldganon's), then they were combined, and no other Roys have been made since.

 

[Naucitos]

Ugh, posts like this are worthless. Half of you guys seem to be seeking for permission to use custom characters in friendlies, or for people to come with character packs. That will happen and be possible regardless of whatever the WBR says.
Anything official would only be directed at tournaments, and i agree that custom characters at tourneys is an AWFUL idea.

 

[timothyung]

Using non-professionally made custom characters in tournaments IS an awful idea. IMO discussing this thing is pointless until we have a perfect clone engine and at least one professionally made character, with a unique model, voice, texture, CSP...

 

[Sails]

I believe it was lightly touched on, but I'd like to further explain that the WBR would (Should) never make an addition that would make so much of the B+ scene disagree. Everyone should know this by now, that anything that is largely disagreed with is changed. All of these threads I see and #BrawlPlus are dominated by people who would not want custom characters in B+.

I don't want custom characters in B+. Not only is there the balance, glitch, and polish aspects, but the character roster and their movesets are one of the last sacred things in tourney play for B+. B+ has gone far and beyond its original purpose and doing that will deter people who joined for that original purpose. Making the game more balanced and fast paced like previous Smash titles.

Take your custom characters somewhere else, not what I play.

 

[superyoshi888]

I believe it was lightly touched on, but I'd like to further explain that the WBR would (Should) never make an addition that would make so much of the B+ scene disagree. Everyone should know this by now, that anything that is largely disagreed with is changed. All of these threads I see and #BrawlPlus are dominated by people who would not want custom characters in B+.

I don't want custom characters in B+. Not only is there the balance, glitch, and polish aspects, but the character roster and their movesets are one of the last sacred things in tourney play for B+. B+ has gone far and beyond its original purpose and doing that will deter people who joined for that original purpose. Making the game more balanced and fast paced like previous Smash titles.

Take your custom characters somewhere else, not what I play.

That's all fine and dandy. Really, it is. But why do you have a problem with us playing YOUR game the way WE want to play it? Brawl is ment to be played in many different ways, and Brawl + only expands those possibilities.

Like it or not, there will always be custom character tourneys. Like it or not, people will continue to change Brawl. From the way you speak, I'm surprised that you even play regular B+.

And honestly, the character roster and the movesets have already been changed. We now have a tourney viable Pokemon Trainer as well as 3 individual Pokemon for those that want to use just one. Movesets have been "tweaked" so to speak for the sake of balance. So if you want to be elitist about YOUR favorite version of Brawl, that's fine, but there is no true correct way to play.

Besides, why does it matter to you if these will likely never be official with the current WBR?

 

[timothyung]

Roy, Mewtwo, and Doc mains says hi.

 

[Sails]

That's all fine and dandy. Really, it is. But why do you have a problem with us playing YOUR game the way WE want to play it? Brawl is ment to be played in many different ways, and Brawl + only expands those possibilities.

Like it or not, there will always be custom character tourneys. Like it or not, people will continue to change Brawl. From the way you speak, I'm surprised that you even play regular B+.

And honestly, the character roster and the movesets have already been changed. We now have a tourney viable Pokemon Trainer as well as 3 individual Pokemon for those that want to use just one. Movesets have been "tweaked" so to speak for the sake of balance. So if you want to be elitist about YOUR favorite version of Brawl, that's fine, but there is no true correct way to play.

Besides, why does it matter to you if these will likely never be official with the current WBR?

I don't care about custom character tournaments, what are you even going on about? Did you even read what you wrote? If you guys want to play Brawl with custom characters go for it. I don't care. I dabble in them myself. I among many others just don't want to see them in Official Brawl+ for many reasons. And no, cosmetic changes like single Pokémon choices are not what I was talking about with the roster. As well, by movesets I meant their base moves, so for instance if they gave Mario the Phantom Mario Side-B, that would be what I'm referring to.

And yes, clearly 'from the way I speak', I obviously hate all changes and not just gigantic asteroid-sized ones. Surely. Completely. Absolutely. Yep. (Wrong)

Hey while we're at it, let's turn B+ in to Street Fighter.

 

[Viquey]

^That wouldn't be the kind of custom character we're talking about at all. It'd be a character with their own slot, own CSP, own alt colors, own announcer call, own model, own animations, own stats, etc. Not replacing current characters with new ones. Thus no Phantom Mario or w/e overwriting Mario, no Wisp overwriting Jiggz, etc.

It seems some versions of what I suggested in the other thread are still floating around, which is good. But to reiterate, I think having a sub-group of the WBR assigned to monitoring and moderating real complete, polished custom characters (made up of people who are in support of it and want to do it, of course) who give input on balancing them and to whom you can submit your character for approval, the process for which would be even stricter on the balancing and feedback. When approved, the character would be added to a list of known, well-made, and balanced characters--in other words, an officially approved custom roster. This would not be included in the B+ releases (official or otherwise), but they'd be out in the open, such as on the B+ website or in a flashy stickied thread here or in their own forums or w/e. These are the characters that, if the TO wants, can be included in tourney. So people can find them easily, learn about them, etc. And not be blindsided by random characters, or have to dig through the custom character forum for info on a character the TO arbitrarily included.

It's a middle ground. They're not officially included/included by default in the B+ codesets, but they're still WBR approved/"official", which gives people a chance to really compete with their favorite character. And which character gets in would have nothing to do with the characters themselves, and everything to do with the quality and how that matches up to the WBR's standards, which should be formed (and perhaps made public) and explained so there's no even partially legit complaints about "well you added [character x], why not [character y]...?" and differences of opinion about whether or not the characters live up to the standards--because the standards would be well-explained, and multiple members of the WBR group for this would be involved, so as to cancel out individual bias as much as possible.

It seems reasonable to me, a nice middle-ground, at least to start.

Lastly, the reason why this is being discussed now, so early on, IMO, is because of hype. The possibilities are opening up and looking to be practically limitless. It's exciting, and people have dreams and fantasies forming. For the WBR to stomp on all our dreams with "lolnothappening 'causeIsayso" is just... various words apply, but they're all along the lines of "mean", "rude", "unnecessary", "immature", "elitist", "power-tripping", etc.

I don't think it's too early to be thinking and dreaming and fantasizing about adding new characters--that's, in fact, the vital first step to making it real--but I DO think it's too early for ANYONE to flat out say they'll never be "official" and playable in tournaments, etc. :/

 

[Sails]

^That wouldn't be the kind of custom character we're talking about at all. It'd be a character with their own slot, own CSP, own alt colors, own announcer call, own model, own animations, own stats, etc. Not replacing current characters with new ones. Thus no Phantom Mario or w/e overwriting Mario, no Wisp overwriting Jiggz, etc.

I know, I was commenting on both new characters and edited movesets to make a comparison for what's left in B+ from vB intact and mostly unchanged.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I know, I was commenting on both new characters and edited movesets to make a comparison for what's left in B+ from vB intact and mostly unchanged.

>_> Whats sacred about data? Sheesh. Such sensitive people these days.

-DD

 

[Slashy]

It's a middle ground. They're not officially included/included by default in the B+ codesets, but they're still WBR approved/"official", which gives people a chance to really compete with their favorite character. And which character gets in would have nothing to do with the characters themselves, and everything to do with the quality and how that matches up to the WBR's standards, which should be formed (and perhaps made public) and explained so there's no even partially legit complaints about "well you added [character x], why not [character y]...?" and differences of opinion about whether or not the characters live up to the standards--because the standards would be well-explained, and multiple members of the WBR group for this would be involved, so as to cancel out individual bias as much as possible.

I posted a good example of guidelines to be followed many posts back. The bias has already been put into place for what characters can be picked.

 

[adrahil]

Take your custom characters somewhere else, not what I play.

I don't care about custom character tournaments, what are you even going on about?

Did you even read the original post? I am not talking about making a standard set of custom characters and sticking them in official B+ builds. I am talking about making a non Brawl+ endorsed tournament setup for people interested in hosting tournaments with a few (and I mean a few, maybe 6 tops) custom characters. Most likely just those cut from Melee. I have no interest in sticking all kinds of crazy characters like Phoenix Mario into B+. A lot of people are responding with comments that sound like they expect every new character someone makes to be added in. I am talking about months of playtesting a select few cut characters and putting them back in for tournament use, thus 'Director's Cut'

 

[Slashy]

Please don't call it a director's cut, you're not a Brawl+ director, neither am I. Unless this stamp of approval goes to Shanus, Cape, or Paprika Killer, it doesn't count to me.

 

[adrahil]

The name is trivial. The 'director' I am referring to is Sakurai. He cut several characters who people are trying to remake.

 

[Slashy]

The name is trivial. The 'director' I am referring to is Sakurai. He cut several characters who people are trying to remake.

So that limits the roster entirely to the Forbidden 7, and MAYBE the Melee characters. Anyone else does not count.

 

[FSLink]

So that limits the roster entirely to the Forbidden 7, and MAYBE the Melee characters. Anyone else does not count.

I think honestly that'd be a good idea if not the best idea for the project.
Also less whining since there'd be little bias in choosing the characters, it'd be more of "Hey, we're just adding the stuff they didn't finish or cut!" rather than "Sorry character X got in instead of character Y." that would get rather annoying backlash.

Returning Melee characters:
Roy
Mewtwo
Dr. Mario

Forbidden Newcomers:
Dixie Kong
Toon Zelda (give Light Bow perhaps?)
Toon Sheik (Tetra?...)
Plusle+Minun


Is already a pretty decent list with characters that would fit pretty well with the game. I dunno if Plusle+Minun would work, and it might be a bit extraneous due to having so many Pokemon reps, but hey.
Maybe bring in Young Link and Pichu to keep the entire Melee cast in there, Pichu could be an interesting character, and personally I think it'd be nice to get some low tier characters into this "director's cut"


As for the name of the project, I vote
Brawl+ DX.
Bring back the Melee veterans, and it'd match well with the Japanese name for Melee. Plus "Deluxe"would represent the additional content like Super Mario Bros Deluxe or Zelda's Link Awakening DX for Gameboy Color. It's something Nintendo uses a lot in games with additional stuff. *shrug*

EDIT: Also it'd be pretty rad if they got proper portraits, announcer voices (if they aren't already in there), actual voices (we thought Music couldn't be streamed, so couldn't voices hypothetically be streamed once someone figures out how to pack the voice files?), character selection icons, etc.
For now, I say implement them and properly balance them (and mute their voices?), and then properly polish them with all the aesthetic stuff with future stuff before deciding this side project is completed. I can't see why there can't be a side project to attempt to try to accomplish these. So I say go for it.

 

[adrahil]

So that limits the roster entirely to the Forbidden 7, and MAYBE the Melee characters. Anyone else does not count.

Yes, that is exactly what I said in the original post.

 

[Slashy]

Yes, that is exactly what I said in the original post.

The Forbidden 7 don't have announcer calls, just 4/5 of the dropped Melee/DX characters.

I suggested Brawl+ Xtra in case this game makes it to the east, it won't be as confusing of a title.

Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, Lyn, Dark Samus, Ridley, Mega Man, Isaac, Krystal, Tails, Jody Summer, King K. Rool, Micaiah, Felix, Jenna, Mii, Bowser Jr.

This is a list of characters that should be considered for the project. We don't need to create any more bias than what already exists on this list. These are the only characters outside of the original roster that have announcer calls (or a close equivalent). Anything else needs to be made, which probably won't sound as legit as the calls these have. If you read back you would have realized this already.

This may be bias, but there is justification to it.

 

[Revven]

I suggested Brawl+ Xtra in case this game makes it to the east, it won't be as confusing of a title.

Once again, how would the Japanese be confused ...?

Super Smash Bros. Brawl in Japan is called: Dairantou Smash Bros. X. Brawl+ in Japan is called: Dairantou Smash Bros. X+ or in kanji: スマブラX+. Calling it Brawl+ Xtra is just adding an unneeded word to it because the Japanese wouldn't be confused by the title as Brawl in Japan = X so calling it Xtra would be stupid and would be difficult to translate into Japanese as the X wouldn't translate well, it would wind up just using extra... so redundant name is redundant.

It would just have to be a NORMAL name that can be translated into Japanese easily IF this ever takes off (which I doubt will but, hey, the community does what it wants).

You have such a strange obsession with the Japanese, don't you, Slashy? You just LOVE that X so much, huh? We might as well call it Brawl+ XXX if that's what you're into...

Let other people worry about the name, you're just bad with names.

 

[timothyung]

スマブラX actually is the shortened form (SmaBro X)

 

[Revven]

スマブラX actually is the shortened form (SmaBro X)

Still, they know what it means so there's no point in using a dumb name after the + like Xtra.

 

[timothyung]

Duh, and it's not even Kanji >.>

But yeah, that's not a good name. Heck, even thinking a name is pointless now because there isn't even a clone engine, nor the tools necessary to make a professionally made character. When such a character is made, we might include it in official Brawl+... it's too early for us to talk about it now.

 

[Firus]

NO **** DOCTOR MARIO. HE'S A PATHETIC ADDITION TO A GAME THAT ALREADY HAS A SOLID 4 CHARACTERS OF REPRESENTATION.

Okay, despite him not seeming much different at all from Mario, I love playing with Dr. Mario in Melee, but don't really like playing with Mario. I'm not sure why he's any more useless than any of the other clones.

This would seems sloppy and unofficial and would make it even harder to spread brawl+

This post is sloppy and uninformed and annoys me.

And I wouldn't say that the WBR "condemns" custom characters either...many of them are involved in making characters themselves.

Please keep this in mind people.

When I said that the WBR "condemns" custom characters, I mean The WBR. As in, the organization as a whole. The purpose of The WBR is to make rules and such for Brawl+ competitive play, correct? So the organization, in the sense for which it was created, condemns it. That is what I meant. I know paprika killer is the creator even of the GUIDE for PSA.

But anyway, Melee characters were the last one i putted in. Because they already exist. They are not new or unique or anything. If at all new characters must be thrown in, then absolute new ones. Like Saturos, Tails, Lyn or something. If someone want to play Dr. Mario or Mewtwo, then he should go to play Melee i would say.

They are simply not interesting. I want interesting characters, not remakes!

That's great for you.

However, in the sense of trying to make a competitive character set, it would actually be a lot easier to create characters based off of a pre-existing, semi-balanced moveset than to create a totally new character.

It's one thing for friendlies. It's another thing if we're aiming to make a competitive set of characters. I think Melee characters will actually be the first ones added. They're the first ones that have been created and fairly balanced just in general.

I among many others just don't want to see them in Official Brawl+ for many reasons.

And I wish people would actually understand what a project is for before they make comments on how they don't want something ruined, but clearly that's a lost cause.

When such a character is made, we might include it in official Brawl+...

Okay. In the hopes that someone will actually understand this, I'm going to put it in large, bold letters.

The intention of this is to create a new competitive character set totally separate from Official Brawl+. No one is trying to change Official Brawl+. This project would be to competitve Brawl+ as competitive Brawl+ is to vBrawl. Neither one conflicts with each other and they handle things separately.

 

[CloneHat]

If that's the case, judging by the posts I've been seeing, a lot thread has basically been pointless.

If you're worried the WBR and tourneys and stuff, whatever, because nobody will use this in tourneys without the WBR telling them not to unless you balance it out, which I understand you want to do.

This is a great idea, just there's no point calling it a separate type of Brawl, because it's just the Plussery Set with an added character pack.

I'm not trying to condemn your idea, I'm just trying to clear up some of the monotonous arguing that's been going on.