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Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
I still stick by reducing 'upwards' grav as a bandaid fix to the huge power of jumps and recoveries. It just feels more natural to me. Of course, I'm working on a code to reduce jump height across the board without affecting other things, but I'm not quite certain if it'll work. I'm working on a tight schedule as it is, though, because I have an exam coming up that I'm really not looking fowards to.

I've also started using Shield for Independant Pokémon instead of the PW codes. It's a third of the length, and does the job. Sure, it doesn't make the Trainer as powerful, but I think we all agree that individual character balances are a low priority. The Independant code makes three viable characters for 1/3 of the code as PW's which makes one good one.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
By the way, we did figure out our rules for the tournament. The only thing I think we would've liked to try more was gravity, I think. Since we didn't try it, we left it off.

Hitstun - 8%
Auto L-Cancel
No delay on Edge Grab
No tripping
Reduced Stale Moves - Right now we're using the half code and actually may reduce it more because it's not a large effect at all
RAWRizard
No auto-sweetspot ledges
I would recommend at least 10% if you haven't already settled.

Also, RAWRizard? Are those the two Phantom Wings codes for the PT with no-swap and no-stamina?
That's my guess.

@Almas
Forgot about that pokemon sheild code. Does this also allow you to change manually as well?
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
3,273
Location
In a world of my own devising
Tim, if you want more stale move reduction (ie: closer to no stale moves like training mode) then try this one out:

Code:
06FC0988 00000028
3D4CCCCD 3CCCCCCD
3CB851EC 3CA3D70A
3C8F5C29 3C75C28F
3C4CCCCD 3C23D70A
3BF5C28F 3BA3D70A
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,958
Location
Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
In all honesty I have tested 9% Hitstun and it looks very promising. But if you're going to have gravity modifications then I would consider having the hitstun around that range at all cost since you'll be hitting the ground sooner.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
In all honesty I have tested 9% Hitstun and it looks very promising. But if you're going to have gravity modifications then I would consider having the hitstun around that range at all cost since you'll be hitting the ground sooner.
In my matches of 9% hitstun I can say that you DO have to work for the combos. They weren't just "Okay! I hit you and then the combo starts!" sort of thing. It felt very natural and at the same time, like it was still Brawl without a HUGE change. It was very nice and such. I was able to get a few combos not, a whole lot probably because I hadn't played with it on before so, I didn't know what worked and such. I definitely wanna say that with downwards gravity of anything, 9% would be perfect for it. Brawl's gravity just doesn't seem to do well with this hitstun setting, IMO.

Then again, I hadn't played much with it BEFORE my matches I had so...
 

Osi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
580
Location
In a dream
In all honesty I have tested 9% Hitstun and it looks very promising. But if you're going to have gravity modifications then I would consider having the hitstun around that range at all cost since you'll be hitting the ground sooner.
I'm on 10% downward 1.25 right now, and it does feel a bit much at times, so I'll give your 9% a shot. It just may be the ticket hehe.

Edit- I tried 1.15 and it felt a bit too slow, would anyone mind telling me what the line for 1.2 would be?
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
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Problem0

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
We don't really see a need for so much hitstun and it makes some things just ridiculous. There are plenty of new opportunities with 8% from what we can see now. Our opinion may change, but this is what we have found for now.

We'll check the codes to make sure that they are up to date.

As far as stage freezes go, I'm simply of the opinion that I want to see as little tinkering with the game as possible. "Fixing" banned stages opens up the possibility that then people will demand that valid counters also get frozen to make them "better," and I'd rather not see some very interesting and diverse counters fall by the wayside.

I'll try to upload the files later. Is there a consensus on gravity, or is it even used much?
Well I wouldn't say things are ridiculous at 11.75%...only if your DI is bad. But its ok, I'm glad to see the rest of your code set is good and since this is along side of a brawl tourney, I guess a higher than normal hitstun might be easier to adjust to. However, when you say that it opens up new possibilities, I am afraid that those only open up to the combo gifted ones.

About the gravity, if you want to make minor tweaks, then use 1.1. 1.1 basically makes the hangtime from changing directions more natural and makes the FFs a little bit faster. Its pretty good IMO.

Can't wait to hear how it goes!
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
This is my first post here (just registered because I want to discuss Brawl+), but I've been following this project since MAD was made. Thus, I have a pretty good grasp of the codes so far. So, hello everyone.

Now, on the topic of shields, I have a slightly unorthodox suggestion regarding powershielding. I've heard complaints of how easy powershielding is, and how it often happens by luck, when all we're trying to do is shield. Now, I know part of this is because the window for powershielding is huge, and indeed, it is easy enough that one can consistently do it, especially against projectiles, if one wishes to do so. However, the fact that it happens so often without actually meaning to do it is rather annoying, and further makes shields overpowered, and on top of that, adds an element of randomness and luck.

So, in order to correct this, why not divorce the powershield from the normal shield input?

Now, hear me out. I've heard people here compare powershielding to Street Fighter 3's parry system, and that gave me an idea. We could disable powershielding completely from the normal shield, and instead assign powershielding to another input, much how you block in SF3 by pressing back, and parry by pressing forward/down on a certain window.

In a similar way, you could shield by pressing R, and powershield by pressing L on a certain window. If an attack does not hit your character's hitbox during that frame, nothing happens. But if it does, you powershield. This window would, of course, be smaller than it currently is, though perhaps not as small as it is in Melee.

By doing this, powershielding would be completely independent of the normal shield, and thus eliminate the element of randomness inherent in powershielding. That, and it increases the risk associated with attempting a powershield, as unlike the current system, where shielding too early only brings up the normal shield, making the biggest risk occur if you shield too late, pressing L too early or too late puts you at risk of attack. You would then have a clear choice of either playing it safe and bringing up the normal shield, or truly risk an attack and opt to powershield to counter-attack.

The only problems I can think of, however, is if this would fly with some players, considering how some have inputs other than shield assigned to L, and of course, the code space, which is running low at the moment. I'm sure some would also say that this is too radical a change, that Brawl+ is about small but nevertheless significant changes to the existing engine, and that in light of this, a complete change to the way the shielding game works would be unacceptable.

But nevertheless, I felt I should throw this out there, because it sounds like a great idea, at least on paper.
 

MALCORE

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
68

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
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Playing Melee
You're acting like High king of Narnia again.
Well then stop thinking like I am. I guess my opinions make you feel that way. Not my problem. I could easily say the same thing to the other users who have said the same statement before me. Please stop holding a grudge against me and trying to make stupid points out of things I say. Its funny that you didn't make the same comment to the other users who have made the same claims...hence your grudge against me. You hate me...we get it. You don't have to find every conceivable moment to point that out. Its rather childish and you don't see me doing the same to you...
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Well then stop thinking like I am. I guess my opinions make you feel that way. Not my problem. I could easily say the same thing to the other users who have said the same statement before me. Please stop holding a grudge against me and trying to make stupid points out of things I say. Its funny that you didn't make the same comment to the other users who have made the same claims...hence your grudge against me. Its rather childish and you don't see me doing the same to you...
What does he care if you like is rules or not? It's not like you'll be attending. He asked if there was a consensus on a gravity setting not what you thought about his rules.

I was pointing out how funny that statment sounded in that context but you had to blow up and make a huge deal out of it.

Such a temper and no sense of humor. That's a bad combination.

BTW this is gonna be kind of a running gag. I thought that at this point you could take it better (no homo), but I was wrong.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
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Olympia, WA
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Shadoof
I just found an interesting glitch with Fox, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before.

If Fox is hit at a certain point in his Up-B, it seems that he'll go flying as if he were hit regularly, but still have the flames that he would during a regular recovery, without being hit.

I only just figured this out, and I'm playing as Marth.
I'm using:
ALC
Histun 11.75%
Lagless Ledges
No Auto-Sweetspotting Ledges
Gravity Modifier
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I just found an interesting glitch with Fox, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before.

If Fox is hit at a certain point in his Up-B, it seems that he'll go flying as if he were hit regularly, but still have the flames that he would during a regular recovery, without being hit.

I only just figured this out, and I'm playing as Marth.
I'm using:
ALC
Histun 11.75%
Lagless Ledges
No Auto-Sweetspotting Ledges
Gravity Modifier
That happens in vanilla brawl as well.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
First off, enough with the no homo, it's getting ********.

Second, Zxeon, perhaps you should start, oh I dunno, writing more than 1 line per post for a change? Seriously, you don't need to post a 1 line irrelevant comment on every page...

Third, GPDP, interesting idea. I don't know if people would take to assigning a new button mechanic. It would be fun to experiment with though. It could actually turn out ok, but I can already see people counter with the "perserve Brawl" arguments...
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Second, Zxeon, perhaps you should start, oh I dunno, writing more than 1 line per post for a change? Seriously, you don't need to post a 1 line irrelevant comment on every page...
I couldn't help myself sorry. Did my last post need to be any longer? I think I ansered the whole question there. Is this enough or should I type some more?
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
I don't know if people would take to assigning a new button mechanic. It would be fun to experiment with though. It could actually turn out ok, but I can already see people counter with the "perserve Brawl" arguments...
Hey, we're already messing with some of Brawl's core mechanics quite a bit, what with the lack of sweet-spotted ledges.

Of course, I realize that a big aim of the Brawl+ project is to add back the mechanics that made both previous Smash games so competitive, such as an actual ledge game and, of course, combos. In that sense, the project has a considerably conservative side to it, in that the goal is to change the game as little as possible while still making it play more like the titles of old.

Still, I can't help but get hung up on what a competitive setting is, and what that means regarding luck and depth. And in both respects, powershielding has missed the mark in both Melee and Brawl. In Melee, the window for powershielding melee attacks was much too small to be a viable tactic during a match, and thus came out randomly and unexpectedly rather often. In Brawl, the window for powershielding is too big, which makes it much too easy to invoke, and on top of that, it comes out by luck very commonly, even when one doesn't mean to use it, due to the fact that the powershield is tied to the normal shield.

To truly deal with the luck inherent in the powershielding game, and to make it a viable option with a balanced risk and reward system, the powershield input should be separated from the normal shield input, and the window decreased just enough to make it possible to use but not spam (I'm thinking 6 frames), unless one develops the skill necessary to time the powershield in every situation (think of Daigo's legendary string of parries in SF3). This would also add a substantial tech skill barrier, and the game would consequently gain a competitive edge in the shielding game.

I know such a system is unprecedented in the Smash series, and many seem to be loath to truly change the mechanics of Brawl+, even if they result in increased competitiveness, for fear that it would alienate players already used to Brawl and even Melee. But hell, if the so-called M-cancel was given some attention and discussion, I don't see why my proposal shouldn't. :grin:
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
My problem with your idea is not in the mechanic itself, but in the execution of it. Not only do people change their button arrangement, which could take up the slot, but some people use L for normal shielding. This equates to telling them that they're wrong for doing so, and I don't think this would be very fair to the players. Perhaps instead of attaching it to a button people already use in regular combat, you could give taunts PS properties in their first 6 (or so) frames, and the taunt is then interrupted by the PS animation if you're hit. The only major problem then would be code space.
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
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Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
Maybe we could reduce the window that you can powershield and replace the remaining frames that used to poewrshield with a wimpy shield that weakens twice as fast. That would be one way to make powershielding risky (and probably shielding in general). :p

Example: If powershielding has an 8 frame window right now (just a guess), then change it a 5 frame window for powershielding followed by a 3 frame window of a weak shield.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
Maybe we could reduce the window that you can powershield and replace the remaining frames that used to poewrshield with a wimpy shield that weakens twice as fast. That would be one way to make powershielding risky (and probably shielding in general). :p

Example: If powershielding has an 8 frame window right now (just a guess), then change it a 5 frame window for powershielding followed by a 3 frame window of a weak shield.
So punish people for using the shield? We're trying to weaken the dominance of shields not make them randomly awful. This would be no different than the current powershielding except that it also has a chance of really hurting the shielder. This is a terrible idea, and only enhances the random element.
 

CyberGlitch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
450
Location
Wisconsin
Alright, my first post on the Brawl+

On Powershielding:
-Powershielding should be a tactic that is viably achieved, almost consistently. As mentioned, this was not so possible in Melee. I have personally have no problems with the current powershielding setup.
-Powershielding should be encouraged, it's about predicting others' moves. There should be more punishment if you fail to do it though.
-More punishment can be achieved by increasing the lag of getting out of shields, adding shield stun.
-Weakening the normal shield is not the answer, since plenty of attacks that nearly break it as it is would become overpowered.
-Instead, the time for the shield to recharge should be slowed down. Too often have I pressured someone down to nearly no shield only to have them roll around a few times and fully recover it.

Alternatively, if we do get a code that allows powershielding to reflect projectiles, it should be reconsidered, as it may yield plenty of projectiles useless if it's too easy to do. Until then, I think powershielding is not a priority.
 

cobaltblue

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
455
Alright, my first post on the Brawl+

On Powershielding:
-Powershielding should be a tactic that is viably achieved, almost consistently. As mentioned, this was not so possible in Melee. I have personally have no problems with the current powershielding setup.
-Powershielding should be encouraged, it's about predicting others' moves. There should be more punishment if you fail to do it though.
-More punishment can be achieved by increasing the lag of getting out of shields, adding shield stun.
-Weakening the normal shield is not the answer, since plenty of attacks that nearly break it as it is would become overpowered.
-Instead, the time for the shield to recharge should be slowed down. Too often have I pressured someone down to nearly no shield only to have them roll around a few times and fully recover it.

Alternatively, if we do get a code that allows powershielding to reflect projectiles, it should be reconsidered, as it may yield plenty of projectiles useless if it's too easy to do. Until then, I think powershielding is not a priority.
Thats more or less the goal really. I don't think anyone here wants shielding to return to melee levels where its luck if it happens.

Only wish we had more coders here to show what is and isn't possible instead of all this speculating on future play going on now.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,958
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Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
Well if we want a more offense based game then how about we just nerf the shield itself?

Basically shield depletes just a tad bit quicker and/or let the shield regenerate slower. That way people won't rely on shielding as much anymore, although I do fear multi-hit attacks could become overpowering.

What do you guys think? If we can find a modifier to adjust the "HP" of the shield then we could work something out from there.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Perhaps instead of attaching it to a button people already use in regular combat, you could give taunts PS properties in their first 6 (or so) frames, and the taunt is then interrupted by the PS animation if you're hit. The only major problem then would be code space.
I think the taunt idea is bad, because if no attack comes out you are completely vulnerable while doing the rest of our taunt. That's too much punishability.

Maybe we could reduce the window that you can powershield and replace the remaining frames that used to poewrshield with a wimpy shield that weakens twice as fast. That would be one way to make powershielding risky (and probably shielding in general). :p

Example: If powershielding has an 8 frame window right now (just a guess), then change it a 5 frame window for powershielding followed by a 3 frame window of a weak shield.
So punish people for using the shield? We're trying to weaken the dominance of shields not make them randomly awful. This would be no different than the current powershielding except that it also has a chance of really hurting the shielder. This is a terrible idea, and only enhances the random element.
I think you misunderstand his idea a bit. The weak version of the shield would only last for 3 frames. This basically is a compromise against the "parry" idea, where instead of being completely vulnerable for a few frames, you're only slightly vulnerable for exactly 3.

Alright, my first post on the Brawl+
-More punishment can be achieved by increasing the lag of getting out of shields, adding shield stun.
-Weakening the normal shield is not the answer, since plenty of attacks that nearly break it as it is would become overpowered.
-Instead, the time for the shield to recharge should be slowed down. Too often have I pressured someone down to nearly no shield only to have them roll around a few times and fully recover it.
Your first post, and a **** good one! I think this makes a lot of sense and should be looked into. We already want more shield lag, so that already creates a very small punishment system for missing a powershield (you wanted to be offensive with the counter, but are punished by having to go defensive with the now less effective shield). I've also noticed that the shield recharges too quickly, and slowing that down might actually make shield pressure worth a ****.
 

Osi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
580
Location
In a dream
Well if we want a more offense based game then how about we just nerf the shield itself?

Basically shield depletes just a tad bit quicker and/or let the shield regenerate slower. That way people won't rely on shielding as much anymore, although I do fear multi-hit attacks could become overpowering.

What do you guys think? If we can find a modifier to adjust the "HP" of the shield then we could work something out from there.
This is a pretty cool concept Muba. I could see it making Pit a whole lot better in the end with his multi hit moves hehe. It would sure make people more careful when using shield.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Well if we want a more offense based game then how about we just nerf the shield itself?

Basically shield depletes just a tad bit quicker and/or let the shield regenerate slower. That way people won't rely on shielding as much anymore, although I do fear multi-hit attacks could become overpowering.

What do you guys think? If we can find a modifier to adjust the "HP" of the shield then we could work something out from there.
Like cyberglitch mentioned, we don't want moves like the tornado and turtle to become broken, which weakening the shield might do. If you already know your shield is low, you can plan to avoid such attacks or just stop shielding all together, but nerfing the shield HP would allow them to eat through too effectively.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
short question which came to mind when messing with shielldstun:

how would it be if the degeneration when getting hit (shrinkage on dmg you get it) would be increased.
this would punish general turtling, but still give time to respond to the defender.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
short question which came to mind when messing with shielldstun:

how would it be if the degeneration when getting hit (shrinkage on dmg you get it) would be increased.
this would punish general turtling, but still give time to respond to the defender.
If your mean more shield gets eat up, then that could make certain moves over powered. If anything, we would want the shield to regenerate slower...but I don't feel this is necessary. Shield breaking I feel will be easier than melee and a slower regeneration might make shield breaks too easy. But we will have to see with shield stun
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
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Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
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Problem0
I think you misunderstand his idea a bit. The weak version of the shield would only last for 3 frames. This basically is a compromise against the "parry" idea, where instead of being completely vulnerable for a few frames, you're only slightly vulnerable for exactly 3.
That was the jist of it. The only problem is, is if someone doesn't attempt a perfect shield and performs a weak shield, which is what makes it a risky inclusion. Honestly, if we removed perfect shielding against upclose melee attacks and only allowed perfect shielding against projectiles, I'd be fine.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
@jiang: pretty sure we all agree that we still want it

@problem2: You stated the problem right there yourself. It just makes shielding even more random, as you could throw out a perfect shield, a weak shield, or the regular shield depending on how quickly you react.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
No, your brawl file will not be erased... with the exception of a few codes (none here), nothing will permanently alter your brawl file. Now, what could happen is that the homebrew channel will be deleted. Although no current updates out will do anything like that, the release of update 3.4 allows nintendo to update your wii without your consent, so it's really best to just avoid updating.
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
1,188
Location
irvine, CA
what do you guys think about assigning power shielding to crouching? power shielding only seems easy because we use our shield button for so many things. if we just move such a powerful tool to a seperate button, we have to make a conscious decision. i think this may be a lot easier than increasing the frame count, and would make use of the crouching command :)
 
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