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Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

aho43

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
1,352
Location
IN UR LOOPZ
As someone who for the most part really doesn't like Brawl and was fairly technical in melee, I think auto l-cancel would be better than having to manually l-cancel. My initial reaction upon seeing these ideas go about was that l-cancelling should be manual, for the sake of preserving some "purity" to the game. After playing hacked brawl a bit with people who, unlike myself, play Brawl competitively here is my take on things.

What is the purpose of these hacks? The goal in my mind is to create a faster paced, more fluid game that provides more options, particularly offensive options to make the game better. However there are some other things that we should take into account besides just making the game faster and more allowing for combos.

If a particular set of hacks does become standardized by the community, isn't it something that we would want to catch on? The problem with the l-cancel hack is that it makes the game feel quite different. The l-cancel timing isn't the same as in melee, so trying to adjust from brawl with no l-cancelling to brawl+ l-cancelling just feels unnatural. In general it seemed that the hacks were not very popular with the guys I was playing with.

If the l-cancels were automated, the game would still feel very much like "regular" brawl. The moves just have less lag. Any modifications made should try to keep the feel of Brawl, just make it a faster paced game. You want to be able "sell" the idea of these hacks on regular brawlers who may be opposed to them.

The m-cancel sounds interesting, where your attacks auto lag cancel, and if you do perform a manual cancel you get no lag. However, this presents the same "technical barrier" that making manual l-cancelling does. If you could perform cancels that remove all lag, wouldn't it be in your best interests to do it all the time? My suggestion would be the following. Allow for m-cancels, but have it do damage to your health. You could do this by maybe having a flower pop on your head when you do it. I don't even know if that would be possible with the constraints of ocarina.

Personally I think auto l-cancels would be enough on its own. It keeps the game feeling very much like brawl, but speeds it up.

I'm not completely sold on the wavedash, for the same reasons I'm against the l-cancel. It changes the game too much.

The goal of all the hacks should be to make the game faster, not be more technical. while at the same time keeping the feel its original incarnation. what good would these hacks be if they don't appeal to the competitive crowd?
 

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
I do not see the problem with some characters having to l-cancel and some not. The characters already have wildly differing learning curves, so it wouldn't be a big issue. What would be needed is a more natural timing to l-cancelling... hard enough to take skill, but not so much that it becomes a hindrance.

That said, auto-cancelling wouldn't be bad. it's just that some characters could then use strong aerials carelessly, with little lag and skill, maybe making their ground attacks useless in the process.

I think M-cancelling shouldn't have an immediate drawback like losing health, but something to punish overusing it. For example losing a chunk of the shield, as said before.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
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The m-cancel sounds interesting, where your attacks auto lag cancel, and if you do perform a manual cancel you get no lag. However, this presents the same "technical barrier" that making manual l-cancelling does. If you could perform cancels that remove all lag, wouldn't it be in your best interests to do it all the time? My suggestion would be the following. Allow for m-cancels, but have it do damage to your health. You could do this by maybe having a flower pop on your head when you do it. I don't even know if that would be possible with the constraints of ocarina.
The idea originally was to make m-canceling use up some of your shield so you would have to use it sparingly and balance your offense and defense carefully. Wonderful post though aho.



I'd like to add a little idea that I had and have had someone ask on the hacking boards for. I think it would be a good idea to change up perfect shielding to something slightly different. Right now the defensive system in brawl is better than offense and when we add enough hitstun to combo off of things like grabs I feel perfect shielding is going to seem a little overpowered and halt the games fluidity.

The change I am suggesting is having it when you perfect shield it causes a wind effect (like from Pit's up+B). Basically what this will do is make it so when players perfect shield a physical attack they will have less options to punish with then they do currently. The opponent would be knocked away so they wouldn't be able to be punished as hard. The perfect shielding player will still have the advantage just like in normal brawl but it wouldn't be quite as powerful.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
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Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
The change I am suggesting is having it when you perfect shield it causes a wind effect (like from Pit's up+B). Basically what this will do is make it so when players perfect shield a physical attack they will have less options to punish with then they do currently. The opponent would be knocked away so they wouldn't be able to be punished as hard. The perfect shielding player will still have the advantage just like in normal brawl but it wouldn't be quite as powerful.
That is an excellent proposal to your idea but I can see you being punished heavily when you Perfect Shield near the edge of the platform and edge in general....soooo this could be a strategy where you'd have to perfect shield at the right spots.

I say this perfect shield nerf would be excellent.
 

kupo15

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That is an excellent proposal to your idea but I can see you being punished heavily when you Perfect Shield near the edge of the platform and edge in general....soooo this could be a strategy where you'd have to perfect shield at the right spots.

I say this perfect shield nerf would be excellent.
Not to the defender. If you shield, you get no effects from wind stuff. It may hurt the attacker more by them getting pushed off. If their attack is multihit, there is a chance of a buffered aerial as they fall of the stage due to brawls programming.
 

Ryuker

Smash Lord
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K well I just got back from a dutch melee tourney. I took brawl + with me. The turnout wasn't as big as I was expecting though. I taped some matches for a while but I didn't watch them yet so I don't know if there interesting stuff in it yet. If there is I'll upload them soon.

I have to say it didn't go as well as I expected. Most players were willing to play the game when I asked them but it didn't have the lasting power for them to keep playing on their own. Everyone agreed it felt better then before though but they weren't satisfied yet.
Suggestions I got a lot were change the l-cancell timing, change the lag time on the ledge and increase the hitstun. So nothing new there. But they did say it was an improvement and I got remarks like: "this seems to be on the right way!"

So for this day I'd have to conclude that atleast the game doesn't feel like melee to melee players yet. That can be either good or bad really. At least this an argument again against the whiners about don't make it like melee.

Settings I used were: Gravity 1.1 Damagemod: 1.0625, MAD, L-cancell, hitstun 1.2 and PT code.

What I noticed was that Diddy has a harder time recovering with this gravity setting. I can't spike as low as I used to cause I have to charge the barrels. Maybe 1.1 is still a bit too high. What he does get is a lot more combo capability with dash attacks to nairs and such.
I see a lot of critiscism on the wavedash but I atleast liked it today. I can pick up banana's and set up cool stuff with that and after combo actually follow up with a wavedash d-smash or f-smash. I like it but the timing is still something to get used to and I can't really apply it well yet.

So yet that's about it for now. I'll be going to 2 tournaments next weekend. 1 small one for Melee and one large one for brawl. I'm interested in what the feedback will be at the brawl tourney. I'll try to record when I can but I also record the tournaments matches and I'm planning to add live audio commentary as well so I simply can't record it all the time.

If anyone has any suggestions for questions they want me to ask them plz post them ^^.
How's the beware for the wavedash vid coming along Kupo? ^^
 

kupo15

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ok. I have 3 sections out of 5. These things always take longer than expected. I hope to get it finished within a couple of days.
 

MBlaze

Smash Champion
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Jun 11, 2008
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Copiague, New York
K well I just got back from a dutch melee tourney. I took brawl + with me. The turnout wasn't as big as I was expecting though. I taped some matches for a while but I didn't watch them yet so I don't know if there interesting stuff in it yet. If there is I'll upload them soon.

I have to say it didn't go as well as I expected. Most players were willing to play the game when I asked them but it didn't have the lasting power for them to keep playing on their own. Everyone agreed it felt better then before though but they weren't satisfied yet.
Suggestions I got a lot were change the l-cancell timing, change the lag time on the ledge and increase the hitstun. So nothing new there. But they did say it was an improvement and I got remarks like: "this seems to be on the right way!"

So for this day I'd have to conclude that atleast the game doesn't feel like melee to melee players yet. That can be either good or bad really. At least this an argument again against the whiners about don't make it like melee.

Settings I used were: Gravity 1.1 Damagemod: 1.0625, MAD, L-cancell, hitstun 1.2 and PT code.

What I noticed was that Diddy has a harder time recovering with this gravity setting. I can't spike as low as I used to cause I have to charge the barrels. Maybe 1.1 is still a bit too high. What he does get is a lot more combo capability with dash attacks to nairs and such.
I see a lot of critiscism on the wavedash but I atleast liked it today. I can pick up banana's and set up cool stuff with that and after combo actually follow up with a wavedash d-smash or f-smash. I like it but the timing is still something to get used to and I can't really apply it well yet.

So yet that's about it for now. I'll be going to 2 tournaments next weekend. 1 small one for Melee and one large one for brawl. I'm interested in what the feedback will be at the brawl tourney. I'll try to record when I can but I also record the tournaments matches and I'm planning to add live audio commentary as well so I simply can't record it all the time.

If anyone has any suggestions for questions they want me to ask them plz post them ^^.
How's the beware for the wavedash vid coming along Kupo? ^^
It's good they say that since this is just a prototype and still in development. :) I've been saying for the longest to perfect the L cancel timing, glad we have that to prove my case. But yeah, that and hitstun is all I'm worried about gameplay-wise. I have no care for gravity mods because of the recoveries and U moves that are affected.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
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SoCal
I still haven't seen a concrete point people have against auto-L canceling, save for MuBa with your idea of the force fed thing.

Anyways, I like the idea that Team Giza has. Seems like it would definitely help fix the perfect shielding system.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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I've been saying for the longest to perfect the L cancel timing, glad we have that to prove my case. But yeah, that and hitstun is all I'm worried about gameplay-wise. I have no care for gravity mods because of the recoveries and U moves that are affected.
LOL

I can't believe you think that is actual proof for your cause. It is just as convincing as the several ppl who posted above who preferred auto l canceling instead.....not really.

Besides, he never gave us the specifics like if he mentioned auto l canceling or whatnot. Like, how would you know they dont like auto l canceling if they never tried it? And how credible are they to be good proof? Do you know them? We already established that at the very least the timing should be better and there was no mention about auto canceling in his post or anything.

But whether or not auto canceling was brought up, vague, personal opinions like this are not good proof or convincing evidence to any argument especially if we never tried the new code. Try again with something more convincing please..
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
As an FYI, people that frequent this thread should check out the sticky about the Smash Lab. Hopefully we'll be able to move the hacking community forward alongside the Brawl community with our efforts.
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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oTSONo
Wavedashing lets you wavethrow in midair o_O

I feel a topic measuring aerial wavethrow distance coming on ;_;
 

sagemoon

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Lynnwood, WA
like glidetossing. All characters have the same airdodge length so it will be the same distance to the throw. I can see this providing a little more options for mindgames w/ diddy, but its nothing gamebreaking. You basically just change the direction you're falling.
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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like glidetossing. All characters have the same airdodge length so it will be the same distance to the throw. I can see this providing a little more options for mindgames w/ diddy, but its nothing gamebreaking. You basically just change the direction you're falling.
They do? o.o

Well, I guess it gives more Link mindgames since he can't regularly glidetoss on the ground. Like you said though, not gamebreaking.
 

sagemoon

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We're not too lazy.
It's just completely unnecessary, why have to train a reflex when auto is just so much easier. It's not as if it increases the skill gap between new and experienced players.
Please, give me one valid reason on why we shouldn't have auto L-cancel.

Not to mention that L-Canceling is annoying in Brawl. The physics make the timing awkward, you have to press the button all the way in, and it just feels very...artificial compared to Melee where it was rapid button sequences.
heres one reason. L-canceling is a trained reflex that seperates new and experienced players, It sets up combos (more will come as hitstun advances). It hasnt been something i've found to be awkward. The only thing thats awkward is the fact that in brawl you cant fast fall after you attack. therefore shfflc is a little weird. I'm sure a code will come out for that (prays)

One thing about the current hitstun code. Pit cant attack out of his up b. he litterally has no options except get to a ledge or footstool to get out.

edit: a dashdancing code would be cool too =)
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
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Location
irvine, CA
heres one reason. L-canceling is a trained reflex that seperates new and experienced players, It sets up combos (more will come as hitstun advances). It hasnt been something i've found to be awkward. The only thing thats awkward is the fact that in brawl you cant fast fall after you attack. therefore shfflc is a little weird. I'm sure a code will come out for that (prays)

One thing about the current hitstun code. Pit cant attack out of his up b. he litterally has no options except get to a ledge or footstool to get out.

edit: a dashdancing code would be cool too =)
are you sure you're using the latest code?
 

kupo15

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are you sure you're using the latest code?
He definitely isnt. He is two versions behind. Sagemoon, check the OP for the new version

EDIT: Sagemoon, right now, the l cancel timing is too far from the ground and you can cancel the first couple of frames of your move. I don't mind having to l cancel with a better version but here is one reason why I think that auto l canceling would work in brawl. What do you think about this post? http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5830576&postcount=1197
 

Fenrir

Smash Ace
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Another friendly reminder to NOT install the 3.4 update that just came out. You may now return to your regularly scheduled posting.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
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Winter Park, FL
Once again, anyone remotely considering S-cancel must admin that auto L is a better choice. They're both automatic, but one at least preserves some of the moves natural lag for punishability. I'm not saying anyone in the current argument supports S-cancel, I'm just pointing it out because you can't call auto L-cancel outrageous when there were people in the past actually arguing for S-cancel, which is far worse.


Anyway, here are a few code ideas that would be cool if we have enough lines at the end. If these have been made, I'd like to know!

1) No suit-pieces for ZSS.
This seems annoying and unfair to the opponent. Sure the pieces can be used against her, but if we're playing the game with no items, this just isn't right. I think there was a code that put ZSS on the char select screen, but did this remove her suit pieces? If so, it's a code that should be considered for Brawl+

2) No Mr. Saturn/Lightsabre/Bob-omb for Peach, No Gordo for DDD
As much as I love the bob-omb pull, it really has no place in the game if we are trying to limit randomness. You could arguably lump in a Luigi misfire, but that hardly effects the game at hand when it happens (most people forward B from way out, where a misfire wouldn't change things anyway). Saying "gord-owned" is almost worth keeping Gordo, but it's still unfair in competition.

Again, the above would be cool if we happen to have enough space, and they don't require much discussion. I think Brawl+ will get the upper level attention it deserves with the new Smash Lab coming together!
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
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irvine, CA
one reason to want auto cancelling is that it presumably would cause a lot less desynchs online.. or if some other measure can be taken to minimize desynchs that would be nice as well, but at the moment desynchs are kind of an issue :(
 

sagemoon

Smash Lord
Joined
May 22, 2006
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Lynnwood, WA
are you sure you're using the latest code?
I guess I'm not, just got into it so i'm a little new at the hacks >_<

He definitely isnt. He is two versions behind. Sagemoon, check the OP for the new version

EDIT: Sagemoon, right now, the l cancel timing is too far from the ground and you can cancel the first couple of frames of your move. I don't mind having to l cancel with a better version but here is one reason why I think that auto l canceling would work in brawl. What do you think about this post? http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5830576&postcount=1197
I think the post still doesnt convince me. Characters differences should be made up in tech skill. If the brawl hacks are trying to completely balance the game (which would take so much more coding then just adding melee techs) then you would have a point.

However, with regards to wifi desynching w/ l-cancel, then yes i agree it should be auto.

Another friendly reminder to NOT install the 3.4 update that just came out. You may now return to your regularly scheduled posting.
Does the 3.4 update ruin homebrew or something? I keep hearing about it but never knowing why.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Playing Melee
I think the post still doesnt convince me. Characters differences should be made up in tech skill. If the brawl hacks are trying to completely balance the game (which would take so much more coding then just adding melee techs) then you would have a point.
I don't consider lag canceling a "melee" tech because it is a smash tech since 64 had it also. This in itself won't balance things 100% but, bringing everyone up to the same level with universal codes I think makes things more balanced. I also don't think balancing everyone will take much coding or be that complex. No one here is trying to individually alter character's moves. By bringing back the core mechanics that make this game a smash game that benefits everyone equally, this makes the characters balanced from the gate. Then they only have to worry about overcoming their own weaknesses instead of some having to overcome an additional tech skill that others don't have to.
Sorry for referring you to posts but it just makes it easier since ppl came up with the same arguments. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5839950&postcount=1237

Yes it does. Even if you already have homebrew channels installed onto the Wii, the 3.4 update WILL remove it.
Did you or anyone who had it removed delete the twilighthack file that was used to install the homebrew? You should delete that file once the homebrew is installed since I hear the updates look for that and the channel itself acts like a Wii channel undetected. Thats what I heard.
 

Minato

穏やかじゃない
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Did you or anyone who had it removed delete the twilighthack file that was used to install the homebrew? You should delete that file once the homebrew is installed since I hear the updates look for that and the channel itself acts like a Wii channel undetected. Thats what I heard.
I haven't updated the Wii today. I was just reporting what wiibrew.org said on their front page.

Hopefully the hacking community will get around this for the people who have updated in the nearby future.
 

sagemoon

Smash Lord
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Lynnwood, WA
Kupo, so basically in your side of the arguement, you want to neutralize the characters with the auto l-cancel, but what I'm trying to do is create a learning curve, something that seperates the great players from the good.

L-canceling is one of those things that seperates those players. If a good player decides to play a bad character, then thats his choice. However, he can use everything he has to crush a worse player (who is playing a better character) because the other player cant do those techs. Do you kinda get my point I'm trying to make?

edit: err i shouldnt word it "what you're trying to do" and "what i'm trying to do" as neither of us are making the codes. You get the idea though =D
 

kupo15

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Playing Melee
No, i understand and I was on your side of the argument. But what separates a good Samus from a bad samus when all of their moves have auto l canceling? The same with peach. MK acts as if all moves are l canceled when 3 are. How do you compare skill when both players dont have to follow the same "rules" as each other? Are you ok that throughout the roster, characters have auto l canceled moves where some have 0, some have 5 and in between?

I mean, I dont mind a better manual l cancel code but auto l cancel would be a bonus. Where is Magnus when you need him..
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
I believe Kupo's point is that there isn't much correlation between character strength and requiring L-cancelling, and if there is any, it is that lower tier characters tend to need it more (so deserve the boost that auto-l-cancel would give). It can be argued that it is silly for half the cast to learn an AT when the other half operate at full strength without it.

Essentially, the idea is that any aerial attack which has landing lag (which is actually very few in Brawl), should have less landing lag, for the sake of speeding up the gameplay and improving the combo potential of these characters. Forcing some players to have to press another button in order to get this benefit is somewhat silly.

What does intrigue me is that the basic code for lag cancelling can't have already been in the game, so perhaps the people making the codes have the ability to determine exactly what amount of landing lag is present. Perhaps this has applications of some sort.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
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Mar 5, 2006
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Kupo, so basically in your side of the arguement, you want to neutralize the characters with the auto l-cancel, but what I'm trying to do is create a learning curve, something that seperates the great players from the good. L-canceling is one of those things that seperates those players. If a good player decides to play a bad character, then thats his choice. However, he can use everything he has to crush a worse player (who is playing a better character) because the other player cant do those techs. Do you kinda get my point I'm trying to make?
I'm all for tech barriers but I think that landing wind down on aerials is too basic of a concept in the game to try to apply the barrier to. Cutting landing lag in half automatically will speed up the game quite a bit and make the game more appealing for more people. Plus if we do this automatically we will have room to apply a different technique into that position that actually uses decision making as well as adding the learning curve.
 

sagemoon

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Lynnwood, WA
whether the attacks are auto l-cancel'd or not, theres not going to be a difference in the game at high level play, except that one requires tech skill and one doesnt.

However like many people have stated, theres characters that have so minimal lag anyways that it doesnt matter to them.

I think that l-canceling would have a larger impact if characters could fast fall while attacking. I really think that shffl got nurfed when you could no longer fast fall after you attacked, if a code could come out to fix that I'm sure the gamespeed would improve as a result, thus making l-canceling more effective.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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Playing Melee
I think that l-canceling would have a larger impact if characters could fast fall while attacking. I really think that shffl got nurfed when you could no longer fast fall after you attacked, if a code could come out to fix that I'm sure the gamespeed would improve as a result, thus making l-canceling more effective.
Why do you say you cant shffl? Im pretty sure you can but its limited.

(bolded) but sagemoon. shffling is already effective among those who have l canceling programmed into their moves. I guess I never attempted to shffl since pit cant, but if what you say is true that you cant shffl now, the fact of the matter is that when that code does come out, shffling will still be much easier with the characters who have l canceling built into their moves over those who dont. Why should shffling be hard for some when there are characters who will be able to shffl without thinking twice?

I agree with what Almas and giza said.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
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Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
Here's an interesting code everyone should try out.

All Players Teleport Dash - (27 Lines) [Phantom Wings]
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 00000014
92210003 0000007C
4A001003 00000000
30000038 0000001F
66000001 00000000
30000039 00000020
4A001002 00000000
14000040 4F000000
E200000F 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

Basically when you do a roll dodge, you teleport about the distance of a wavedash.
And it seems like PW is alive somewhere

Edit: HOLY CRAP I JUST DID A WAVEGRAB WITH THIS CODE JUST NOW O_O

Here's an interesting thing though. When teleport dashing, your shield depletes quicker so can't Teleport-Dash Dance all the time.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
1,119
Location
San Diego, CA
whether the attacks are auto l-cancel'd or not, theres not going to be a difference in the game at high level play, except that one requires tech skill and one doesnt.
So... why do we want to add that tech skill and make it so theres less players to be able to enjoy the high level gameplay?

However like many people have stated, theres characters that have so minimal lag anyways that it doesnt matter to them.
So lets make it super easy to play as some characters and way harder to play as others even if the reward is way less.
 
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