Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[MBlaze]

I would like to join the group you mentioned earlier in your first post to support this cause.

 

[Wind Owl]

Ok, it's public so you could just join yourself but I'll send you an invite.

 

[Revven]

lol mods

I really can't wait to try this out though. It makes just about everybody usuable. I have to ask though, does the s canceling borke snake?

It kind of does and kind of doesn't.

His Dair becomes AMAZING. Like, I was able to chain part of the Dair, S-Canceled it, then one jab, and did a Utilt and killed Antz with that (it was effin' sweet because he was on the ledge!) His Nair to grab is pretty umm... ridiculous and he has an AIR game which he didn't have before. It makes Snake better, just like it does to Ganondorf (except I find Ganondorf MORE redonkulous than Snake, probably because I suck with Snake).

 

[Maikeru17]

The idea we had at the end was epicly perfect:

- All aerial lag is halved without a button press
- With a button press, you can eliminate all lag (goes into powershield animation) and 1/3 of your shield is depleted.
- "Power-canceling" does not break your shield (three power-cancels leaves you with a sliver left)

The only problem I see with this; is that in the end, I can easily see people always using the "power-cancel". The shield depletion might not be a penalty to some players.
Too bad this isn't the place to really discuss this.


And as far as Snake being borked; while he has an awesome air game, his moves still have a slow-esque start up lag, so anyone that knows their character's matchup against Snake should be fine. Also remember powershield to grab will still own any aerial, what with the poor ability to fastfall due to floatiness.


-Nox`

 

[Magus420]

The idea we had at the end was epicly perfect:

- All aerial lag is halved without a button press
- With a button press, you can eliminate all lag (goes into powershield animation) and 1/3 of your shield is depleted.
- "Power-canceling" does not break your shield (three power-cancels leaves you with a sliver left)

Yeah. I really think there's a lot more potential to be gotten out of an l-cancel type input than just a simple 1-dimensional technique that you would want to do 100% of the time in every situation. Continuing where the discussion in the other thread left off...

idk. sounds interesting, but what would that new feature to the l cancel system be? It would have to be really creative since a lot of us like the current system. It works so well.

The default speed of aerials would be halved, since between good players with just regular l-canceling they would be at half lag 95-99% of the time in 100% of all situations anyway.

The actual l-cancel itself would instead cancel ALL lag similar to s-canceling, but instead of going into a regular shield, I was thinking maybe for it to put you into a powershield animation which also lets you do A or B attacks directly out of it (and would also be a pretty fitting instant cancel effect/animation imo).

As a trade off for this, however, perhaps you would take a few points of damage or something else so that there would be situations where not l-canceling would be the better choice, otherwise you would just use it everytime without question like with normal l-canceling.


This would give you some interesting mixups and shield pressure options.


Like say you land an aerial on someone's shield that is normally unsafe on block. You would have the option of being able to cancel this immediately into another attack that could punish them if they tried to retaliate. It comes at some cost to you however so it's not always going to be the best choice, and so the defending player doesn't always know what you're going to do in that situation and how to respond.

However, in the case of regular l-canceling where in 100% of all situations you would go to l-cancel and get half lag (which in this case is still unsafe), they would know they can safely punish with ____. If it were just s-canceling they would know you would always 100% of the time cancel it into no lag which they can't punish on block, and would know to try to defend by ____.



It really benefits the slower characters the most which is good. Like if Ganon for example were to come down from above and d-air someone's shield, even with the lag reduced by half he could still probably be hit with something out of shield or maybe shieldgrabbed.

At a small cost to him though, he also has the option of canceling it directly into maybe a d-tilt to hit them if they try to punish it and perhaps follow it up or at least put them into a disadvantaged position. He could also cancel into an Up-B which is a grab (or regular grab if it didn't push them too far) and would get them if they instead continued to block expecting a canceled attack or waiting to see if he didn't cancel the d-air to possibly punish it more safely.

He could also choose not to cancel it so that by the time the defender, who respected his option of canceling into another attack that would have hit them first, waits to see if he didn't cancel it the Ganon player may be able to avoid punishment entirely or at least to a lesser degree.

when i was playing w/ shield canceling, all i would do is tap Z on landing and i'd get my grab every time.

now.. did my opponent just suck? We didn't play long enough for him to try spot-dodging or rolling..

anyhow, i found the 64-style lag cancel (S-cancel) broke as ****


but.. Magus' idea is ****. i love it. maybe.. a "power-cancel" would eat a third of your shield ? so you get the 0-lag, but if you have to shield soon after (or even use another "power-cancel"), you have to worry about shield consumption.

though as an addendum, a "power-cancel" should never break your own shield.. just drop you to .. say 1% of total shield

I love that idea! Shield depletion is perfect!

EDIT: How did I not even think of that? It's brilliantly elegant and makes perfect sense, not to mention sounds easy to hack. Amazing.

What do people think? While the exact tradeoff for performing it may need some ironing out to find the best balance, I feel it would add a lot to the game and provide some very good offensive options and mixup potential, especially for those that need it more, while also not being completely overpowered like s-canceling since overusing the 'power-cancel' would put you at a significantly higher risk by keeping your shield depleted and unable to block normally or suffer a shield break.

 

[Revven]

0WN1N (Ike) VS. ANTZ! (Link) 1

Ike action from me... there's two more matches where we play on HT for the lulz but, those won't be up until AT LEAST tomorrow.

 

[Maikeru17]

Like I said before; I think the "power-cancel" might be best in most situations; some players might not find the shield depletion as something hindering.

I say we make the code and test it. My buddies and I wouldn't mind testing the codes.


-Nox`

 

[Wind Owl]

Let's move cancel discussion back to the reopened thread ^^

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, I actually just edited it to mention that the exact tradeoff for doing it may need some testing to find the best balance for it so that it doesn't become too over or underused.

EDIT: Oh. Nice to see it was reopened then =)

 

[zxeon]

Sounds good to me too. I only hope it doesn't take up too many lines of code.

 

[Revven]

Sounds good to me too. I only hope it doesn't take up too many lines of code.

It probably will, it sounds like a LOT would be written to the memory. Likely, it's going to probably use a ton of ASM, just like the SSBM Air Dodge code does, I don't expect such a code to be made anytime soon by anyone in this thread without a large understanding of ASM and how to hack the Wii in general.

Of course, there's also the possibility of asking Phantom Wings on how you would do it, I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing that as long as he wasn't doing it.

 

[Wind Owl]

Responded in the other thread.

 

[Ryuker]

Gah downloading the usa version is gonna take me ages. We're not allowed to link to torrents on this site right? If anyone knowes a good site to get the usa version as iso please pm me ^^.

 

[5ive]

Brawl physics SHOULD be kept the same.
All we need is Wavedashing, L cancelling, and No tripping to change the meta game in this sub type.
This is all we need to make a whole different game.

 

[kupo15]

I think we only need l canceling, no tripping and hitstun. They have been there since the beginning and that is what creates balance. You can still have brawl be brawl with the three I listed. Brawl will not be brawl with wavedashing. That form of air dodge is worse for brawl imo and I stated my reasons why. We still havent come to an agreement yet cause classes interfered.

 

[poklin]

Opinion on melee air dodge system- I think it very much needed, now most will think im biased because i like melee and need to "wavedash" ok well i do think wavedashing helps this game a ton as it is way to sluggish, now i don't really use it but whats important to me is the air dodge. Only 1 of my friends uses AT's the rest don't and i couldn't tell you how happy they were to have the melee air dodge system back, For multiple reasons 2 of them play olimar/PT(ivysuar) the other plays PT and they were very happy that they actually had some what of a chance to return to the stage.

 

[Alopex]

Does this Melee airdodge code still allow a character to use their Zair after the dodge, like in Melee?

Because that would be severely need for a character like Link.

With his already terrible recovery, no airdodge is a death sentence. But if he can use the tether Zair after an up airdodge, then that would be a needed boost to his recovery.

 

[kupo15]

Yes you can still Zair.

Originally Posted by Stratocaster
Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

These are reasons why melee air dodging does not work in brawl. The projectiles and some moves are too good in brawl to limit your air defense.

 

[MBlaze]

Is it really THAT bad to get around? :/

 

[kupo15]

Yes it is. I have trouble even now with the good air dodge system. The hit box is huge! Imagine getting laser or arrow spam while trying to recover with ONE air dodge? Not to mention, you stay in the air so much longer which makes matters worse

EDIT: Going back to how ppl think hitstun will make projectiles broken. 64 Projectiles were over powered, yet it was still a competitive fighter. If you take 64, reduce projectile knockback and add brawl air dodge, you get Brawl+

Actually, I feel that 64 is a more solid fighting game than the default brawl. And looking back, even though Smash is a nontraditional fighter, it is the only one in the series to stay true to traditional fighting game mechanics (ie break shields with combo and do 0-deaths if you were really good)

 

[Swordplay]

That is too bad.

I but I understand. Creating a code that would take out auto sweet spots and allow characters to tether any part of a stage would probably be an extreme complex code.

O well. I thought I would ask and I got my answer.

 

[B.W.]

This wasn't a problem in Melee. Air dodging in Melee made you vulnerable to projectiles such as Samus's fully charged blast. Projectiles shouldn't kill your opinion on directional air dodging at all. More than half the time, I garuntee you're not going to be air dodging attacks anyway, as it is usually safer to land. And when you're in hitstun you can't air dodge anyway.

Air dodging is a very well rounded defense. Like I said before a choice should have to be made. Dodge, or attack? Having multiple air dodges means no being punished for air dodging incorrectly. Having a single Brawl air dodge sets you up for almost any attack as it's much too predictable. Brawl air dodging + attacking leads to a completely defensive game, and combos won't be able to happen on high damaged characters. Melee air dodging lets you go along with your DI or, it lets you close in safely if you do it correctly.

Nobody is going to air dodge as soon as they're launched into the air, you have to wait for the right time. Air dodge correctly and you won't get punished by helpless state. Air dodge using a single Brawl air dodge and prepare to get punished due to them knowing where you're going, and not being able to get away. Air dodge using the current Brawl air dodge, and don't worry about getting punished, but you go back to an entirely defensive game where we won't be able to pull much off because we'll be back to shielding whenever people jump thanks to being in the air having no consequence.

EDIT: May-haps we can make some sort of chat room for discussion about this stuff? Via IRC or something. Active chat would make for much easier discussion. Plus our own forum wouldn't be that bad an idea either. I have a feeling we won't be getting our own sub-forum for a long time, if we even do at all.

 

[§witch]

Is it really THAT bad to get around? :/

Hey blaze ^_^
And, it could be quite a problem, but there must be a way to work around it.

 

[Alopex]

How about the longer replay code? It would be pretty useful competitively since it allows all matches to be recorded, not just the ones that happen to be on the TV with Dazzle.

 

[Stratocaster]

@kupo15

Your post says that I said this:
Be careful here. The current airdodge system is the only thing that makes things like Din's Fire tolerable. If dodging it puts you in helpless state, you're screwed against Zelda when you're OOS.

Alopex said that in the other thread "S-cancel vs L-cancel! Discuss!", not me. He did that in response to my comment: Being helpless though after air dodging is VERY GOOD. It makes air dodging an actual decision instead of "slam R to get out of hitstun"

now I'm split on the issue. It was never a problem in melee, and maybe increased gravity will help you reach the ground more quickly... however, one thing is if you can infinitely air dodge, it is really hard to combo anyone. Look at it like this...

In the current Brawl system, you can airdodge infinitely and before you are actually out of your hitstun, so you can air dodge to get out of your hitstun and to avoid another hit of a combo

In the hacked system, if you airdodge to get out of hitstun early then you are left helpless to be hit again, so you must be more careful with your airdodge, and you can possibly be tricked into psuedo-combos where someone forces you to airdodge and then hits you in the helpless state afterwards, which in the current system they would just be hit again...

This may be helped if the ability to airdodge early in the hitstun was removed, and possibly a slight bit more hitstun. Again, I'm split on the issue and think both sides involve some consideration and experimentation. I'm not ruling either out yet. I'm not convinced that projectiles are broken with a single airdodge, can zin's fire be sent at you twice while you are in the air if you air dodge down then fast fall to reach the ground? I doubt that would happen unless you were reeally high in the air. In fact, I can't think of any projectiles that come out so fast that it'd be a huge problem except falco's lasers... maybe.

 

[B.W.]

Well we plan on killing the choice of being able to air dodge and attack out of hitstun.

Even still, you'll eventually get launched so high you'll be out of hitstun before you hit the ground. With Brawl air dodging it becomes mashing the dodge button. In Melee you had to air dodge at the right time, or attack. Whoever's attack was timed better decided who would get hit, as well as the priority of the move. You needed different strategies against different characters as they were capable of either continuing to hit you despite your hitstun ran out, or you could make the right choice and start your own combo, or make your escape to create some space.

With multiple air dodging air dodging is the right choice 8 out of 10 times and it takes no skill what so ever because once you mess up you can just do it again. And since you're untouchable during it. Where again, with one non-directional air dodge, your landing point is pretty much decided. Sure you can choose to attack, but what if you're going against someone who's priority is higher than your approach? You can't get back on the ground, and if you air dodge to make it back on the ground, then it won't matter because they know where it's going to be, and you'll be back in the air, helpless as can be.

 

[Revven]

My last two LIVE videos, please, enjoy the ape ****. (The first match was bleh on my part, I really should have won). There's about twenty more replays I have to upload that were from earlier on that day, I find them FAR more entertaining and LOL worthy than the ones I recorded live.

0WN1N (DK) VS. ANTZ! (Peach) 1
0WN1N (DK) VS. ANTZ! (Peach) 2

 

[cAm8ooo]

I think we should list all the possible new combos when you add this stuff. A nice compiled list would be a great addition to the thread i think.

 

[B.W.]

Combos aren't really up for discovery yet as the hack isn't close to being final. So most anything discovered is able to change in the long run.

 

[5ive]

I am up for Brawl+ as a Sub category of Brawl, But I am totally against adding Hitstun.

We HAVE to keep Brawl physics, or else it would Become WAY too much like Melee.

 

[B.W.]

Hitstun is like.. The number one most important thing in a fighting game. Without hitstun, combos do not exist. Without combos the game becomes hit tag. Or it becomes Brawl. You choose what you wanna call it.

 

[kupo15]

Stratocaster: Sorry about the mis quote. I thought I fixed that. Things got jumbled at that time so I apologize.

In melee, the single air dodge was not a problem because the gravity was higher plus the projectiles were not as spammy as Brawl. The closest thing would be missile cancel. Wasnt it hard to come back to the stage with one air dodge fighting missile cancel? Now imagine that except a lo more characters can do it like Pits arrows, Dins fire...Seriously, it seems like melee' AD system will make the projectiles more powerful since you can force an air dodge and punish when they land. Ppl also have tremendous landing lag that wasnt there before thanks to brawl.

We can be speculating about this for a long time. The only real way to see which air dodge system is best is to play the game with hitstun in it and compare the two air dodges. I dont see how brawls AD wont allow you to combo with hitstun. If your good enough, you can 0-death ppl (due to things being slower so you have more time to react and that certain character's moves flow nicely) unless you mess up so they escape.
So you punish them with the opportunity to 0-death them and if you mess up, they escape.

I also think we need to take this one step at a time. The main thing we are lacking to progress is the hitstun code. With that, then we can move forward. Without it, we will get as far as the Mk banned thread.

I would really like to set up some sort of chat through AIM or something.

EDIT: Dont forget you can also jump while in hitstun as well as AD and attacks

 

[B.W.]

I agree, final decisions are hard to make without having the proper codes for testing. We do very much need the hitstun to actually do its job and players that actually know what they're doing in order for testing this to work well. I would very much like your idea to work. Single air dodging, minus the direction, only because I do want a new game, rather than Melee. Much like Melee was different from 64, I want Brawl to be different from Melee. But in a form that has less suck than the current Brawl.

But in order for all this to happen we, once again, need a hacker.

Also a group people in AIM or something would be nice, but let's stop here for now and wait till we can actually get inside the code and alter things before discussing things further.

 

[Magus420]

EDIT: Dont forget you can also jump while in hitstun as well as AD and attacks

I've said this a number of times, but you can only do it with an airdodge and A attacks. You can't interrupt tumble stun with a jump or B moves. The entire point of using aerials for recovery on the side blastzones is so you finish the aerial before you'd normally be allowed to jump.

 

[zxeon]

When did I say that? ^

 

[kupo15]

I've said this a number of times, but you can only do it with an airdodge and A attacks. You can't interrupt tumble stun with a jump or B moves.

Hitstun is classified as the point inbetween hitlag and the tumble animation.

I think there is a new "stage" of getting hit. There is the hitlag (both players cant do anything), hitstun (where you cant AD, jump, or attack and this is before the tumble) "new stage" (before the tumble where the "hitstun" wears off and you can attack, jump AD) Tumble (your out of hitstun)

Like for example if you get hit with a strong attack and do nothing but mash the B button, you wont do your special until you go into the tumble, but you can do anything else before that. So brawl has two components to the hitstun. The first half where you cant do anything and the second half where you can do everything but the special.

This is what I notice because I never Air dodge anymore. I always jump and the earliest point I can jump, I can also air dodge

I agree, final decisions are hard to make without having the proper codes for testing. We do very much need the hitstun to actually do its job and players that actually know what they're doing in order for testing this to work well. I would very much like your idea to work. Single air dodging, minus the direction, only because I do want a new game, rather than Melee. Much like Melee was different from 64, I want Brawl to be different from Melee. But in a form that has less suck than the current Brawl.

But in order for all this to happen we, once again, need a hacker.

Also a group people in AIM or something would be nice, but let's stop here for now and wait till we can actually get inside the code and alter things before discussing things further.

QFT 10x over. No 100x over. The Bolded wins the thread. QFT over 9000!!

EDIT:: LOL. its looks like everyone is mis quoting ppl ^_^

 

[Magus420]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522

When I say tumble animation I'm talking about the animation you get launched in on a knockdown hit. You seem to be referring to the freefalling animation or something.

I believe it's probably just some kind of IASA on a certain part of the tumble animation that you can only use an airdodge or aerial for. Like here with G&W the CPU airdodges right after he nearly completes the initial flip as he gets launched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsF_zFKyvkY

The reason I believe it's just an IASA on it is because it doesn't really matter how powerful the knockback of the tumble hit was. The point where you can AD/Attack is roughly the same regardless. It's just a brief pause after you get launched and then you can always do these 2 things, while you may be unable to do anything else until much much later if the knockback (and with it the stun) was very powerful.

 

[zxeon]

AIM is gay IRC.

 

[kupo15]

After looking at the first clip, it is possible that I am wrong. For me to be positive I would have liked to marth not do anything and go into the tumble animation. Tumble animation is where you just slowing spin after the hitstun wore off. You can see this quite clearly when you are hit with a powerful attack at med-high damage. You will first twirl, then change to the tumble. In melee, you could not AD in the tumble animation but could do everything else.

The time where he was able to do the jump compared to the AD are very close it is possible I could be mistaken.

 

[B.W.]

IRC it is then.. Plus with IRC people can enter and leave as they please.. AIM needs an invite..

Anyone know how to set up an IRC room? I'm sure it's not too difficult.