• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
On a side note, I think more hit lag is probably a bad idea. Combos will probably become TOO easy. Besides that grabs and throws will be absolutely broke, the only thing that needs more hit lag is hits after aerials. And that still might be too much, juggling DDD across the stage with meta might become soooo easy it’ll be dumb.
I have said this many times before yet noone has trolled me. Do we agree that N64 was broken? That comboing in that game was easy due to a lot of cookie cutter combos and button memorizing and an insane amount of wobble for minimal DI?

Brawl will NOT be this with hitstun because the defense is better. You can AD, your shield is better and you can DI easier. If you mess up your combo due to your opponents good DI, they can escape

Hitstun is an essential part in any fighter. Without it there is no reward and things dont flow and it makes for a boring game which is.....well....brawl!

Please, someone troll me by telling me how my logic fails!
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,958
Location
Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
I have said this many times before yet noone has trolled me. Do we agree that N64 was broken? That comboing in that game was easy due to a lot of cookie cutter combos and button memorizing and an insane amount of wobble for minimal DI?

Brawl will NOT be this with hitstun because the defense is better. You can AD, your shield is better and you can DI easier. If you mess up your combo due to your opponents good DI, they can escape

Hitstun is an essential part in any fighter. Without it there is no reward and things dont flow and it makes for a boring game which is.....well....brawl!

Please, someone troll me by telling me how my logic fails!
Your logic fails because I said so!

..........................

But in all seriousness, hitstun is a very vital thing in any fighting games, but too much can also be a bad thing, so let's make an estimate on how many frames of hitstun one should suffer?

Should we make a system where hit stun is solid regardless of damage or should there be a fluctuating amount depending on percentages?
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I really don't think that the Melee airdodge will get in the way (Except possibly Zelda) Before Pit existed there was Falco and Shiek and we never had trouble then thier attacks did give you your jumps back as I assume Pit's arrows do.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Your logic fails because I said so!

..........................

But in all seriousness, hitstun is a very vital thing in any fighting games, but too much can also be a bad thing, so let's make an estimate on how many frames of hitstun one should suffer?

Should we make a system where hit stun is solid regardless of damage or should there be a fluctuating amount depending on percentages?
funny XD

We dont need to create the hitstun like we said before. Brawl has hitstun programmed in so they did the hard work, we just need to eliminate doing anything while in hitstun.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
I have said this many times before yet noone has trolled me. Do we agree that N64 was broken? That comboing in that game was easy due to a lot of cookie cutter combos and button memorizing and an insane amount of wobble for minimal DI?

Brawl will NOT be this with hitstun because the defense is better. You can AD, your shield is better and you can DI easier. If you mess up your combo due to your opponents good DI, they can escape

Hitstun is an essential part in any fighter. Without it there is no reward and things dont flow and it makes for a boring game which is.....well....brawl!

Please, someone troll me by telling me how my logic fails!
ur logik failz cuz u shud just go play melee and leave brawl alone.

In real news, I disagree with CCing and DDing. Sure they were a big part of Melee, and yes we are bringing some things from Melee into Brawl. But DDing didn't really speed up anything. It opened up options for tricks/fakes/mindgames, but that's got nothing to do with the speed of the game.

On top of that, we'd probably have to mess with a lot of code, and I think people sometimes forget, we have a limit to how much we can boot up with the game. I'd say hitstun is still most needed. That way we can see what's really needed.

Also I, for one, have no problem with the auto sweet spotting the ledge, I just think it should be made a tad smaller, yet make it big enough so you can still hug the ledge. No matter what we do, Brawl's edge game is going to be harder than Melee's as we'll have to keep them away from the ledge and off the stage, as hogging is significantly harder. Which I think is both good, and bad. But it's one of those things that will help keep Brawl, Brawl. Making it Brawl+ rather than Brawl wishing it was Melee.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
ok, thats enough jokes guys lol

But i agree with Project for the most part. We should worry about the real important stuff first like hitstun while we have the code and then see what gay **** we can fix with the remaining code space availible.

And on a side note of thinking what to do with the remaining code if we have it, what does everyone think about powershielding? Should it be harder to do and/or should it have reflective properties? That would help reduce the camp game.
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
ok, thats enough jokes guys lol

But i agree with Project for the most part. We should worry about the real important stuff first like hitstun while we have the code and then see what gay **** we can fix with the remaining code space availible.

And on a side note of thinking what to do with the remaining code if we have it, what does everyone think about powershielding? Should it be harder to do and/or should it have reflective properties? That would help reduce the camp game.
Too much code required, not feasible.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Well
l canceling is 53 lines
Tripping is 2 lines
Hitstun im going to guess is somewhere around 53 lines
DI weak hits i guess is about 53 lines also
No ledge lag I guess to be 10 lines
so thats 171 lines used which gives us 85 lines left to fix gay crap.

So I think its possible

(yes I am planing this without Melee AD which has 87 lines)

(We are allowed 256 lines I think?)
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
I don't think so. We should be fine with the way things are going. We're already helping boost approach options, and that's where the big hits are at.

Though I have to say.. Who said something about a shield penalty for L-cancel before?

I was watching Canadian Sniper's first video and I saw a Ganondorf spamming d-air and shield canceling it every time, and his shield almost broke from it. A shield punishment for l-canceling may not be a bad idea, as it makes it so that if you l-cancel to combo, and you mess up at a point your defenses aren't as strong.

Actually another system that works like this, but in reverse, is Soul Calibur 4. When you defend too much your soul gauge drops and you eventually can't defend anymore. Attack and you can defend for longer.

If we were to reverse that for Brawl, it'd make something of a GG SC4 hybrid, being that you get a penalty for canceling lag for attacks, but rather than a tension meter going down your defense drops. This would also make it so that you have to mix up the way you play often. It would also help develop a play style that strongly differs from anyone else.

Also, one thing I noticed about tumbling. We'd have to make it so that there was a certain amount of time where you can't do anything during the tumble animation. That's another thing Melee had that was really needed. Being unable to get out of the tumble for a certain period, forced you to DI. And without that time where you were unable to act in the tumble animation a lot of the combos from Melee wouldn't have existed such as chain grabs, etc. Also if you could do absolutely anything out of the tumble right away we'd render teching useless.

Teching was a big part of the game, and it still does exist in Brawl. It also existed in 64, though Melee expanded it by allowing you to tech off walls and such.

EDIT: Better yet, why not do shield canceling with a punishment? That way you can't constantly use jumping out of shield attacks, and you can see how much your shield is getting damaged. Plus the game already does some sort of auto l-cancel with some moves anyway. Plus, s-canceling would not only be new to the game, but it's fewer code than l-canceling is.
 

MBlaze

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
2,236
Location
Copiague, New York
Hey guys I got flamed for my thread about Brawl+ at the site I go to, Nsider2. I flamed back hard for lulz but since my account was suspended there for it, so you guys please make an account and show these noobs why Brawl+ is a great idea? People like Link2227 or some crap (Fallen_Angel, he goes there too) says we're just trying to make Brawl into Melee.

Here's the link to the site: www.nsider2.com/forums

Link to topic: http://nsider2.com/forums/Brawl-t339755.html

Give'm hell! :p
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Also, one thing I noticed about tumbling. We'd have to make it so that there was a certain amount of time where you can't do anything during the tumble animation. That's another thing Melee had that was really needed. Being unable to get out of the tumble for a certain period, forced you to DI. And without that time where you were unable to act in the tumble animation a lot of the combos from Melee wouldn't have existed such as chain grabs, etc. Also if you could do absolutely anything out of the tumble right away we'd render teching useless.
SO basically we also need to make it so you disable air dodging until you are out of tumble since in melee you did see a lot of l canceled aerials out of tumble for offense over defensive teching. I agree even though I would be happier to at least have a true hitstun. We would still address the tumble later unless it would make it too complicated for the hacker. I have no idea since idk how to hack
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
EDIT: Better yet, why not do shield canceling with a punishment? That way you can't constantly use jumping out of shield attacks, and you can see how much your shield is getting damaged. Plus the game already does some sort of auto l-cancel with some moves anyway. Plus, s-canceling would not only be new to the game, but it's fewer code than l-canceling is.
Instead of choosing one over the other I was suggesting why not have a (potentially) balanced fusion of s/l-canceling that also adds some nice offensive options and mixups?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5633295&postcount=90

Your idea of s-cancel with a tradeoff is similar to what powershield-canceling would be except:

1) The default aerial lag is reduced to half on normal landings.
2) The actual cancel itself cancels all lag similar to s-canceling.
3) Instead of it just canceling into a normal shield it cancels into a powershield, which also allows you greater offensive options in using it by allowing you to cancel directly into an A or B attack.
4) For performing the ps-cancel, however, it drains a good amount of your shield in exchange.

I don't really think of it as 'punishment' for lag-canceling, but as a tradeoff for the greatly increased offensive capability and lag reduction. The main reason I like the idea of having some kind of tradeoff is that if it's just less lag for free you might as well just go ahead and do it every single time like normal l-canceling, which offers no depth at all for the actual use of it beyond the reduction in lag itself, while the ps-cancel would add new depth and require more skill in knowing when and how to best apply it.

It also makes the defensive game not as clear cut and 1-dimensional since the attacker doesn't always have a best in all situations or fixed course of action that the defender would know they are doing and how to respond accordingly.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
The next time I have someone over, I'll be sure to give L-Canceling a go with them, regardless of whether they want S-Canceling instead or not. This way, the differences can be seen better (because I'll be recording) and then you could compare and see the differences in offense and/or balance between the two.

But, that probably won't be for a few days... in the meantime, I'm uploading my replays of against Antz from the same day, they're pretty sweet. :)
 

Yatta Dante

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
51
Location
Bend, OR
Quick question; how many versions of the Mid-Air dodge/wavedashing hack are there? I used one, and the only problem I am having with it is that Ike is getting an infinite number of midair dodges.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
Instead of choosing one over the other I was suggesting why not have a (potentially) balanced fusion of s/l-canceling that also adds some nice offensive options and mixups?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5633295&postcount=90

Your idea of s-cancel with a tradeoff is similar to what powershield-canceling would be except:

1) The default aerial lag is reduced to half on normal landings.
2) The actual cancel itself cancels all lag similar to s-canceling.
3) Instead of it just canceling into a normal shield it cancels into a powershield, which also allows you greater offensive options in using it by allowing you to cancel directly into an A or B attack.
4) For performing the ps-cancel, however, it drains a good amount of your shield in exchange.

I don't really think of it as 'punishment' for lag-canceling, but as a tradeoff for the greatly increased offensive capability and lag reduction. The main reason I like the idea of having some kind of tradeoff is that if it's just less lag for free you might as well just go ahead and do it every single time like normal l-canceling, which offers no depth at all for the actual use of it beyond the reduction in lag itself, while the ps-cancel would add new depth and require more skill in knowing when and how to best apply it.

It also makes the defensive game not as clear cut and 1-dimensional since the attacker doesn't always have a best in all situations or fixed course of action that the defender would know they are doing and how to respond accordingly.
I was actually putting punishment meaning, if you mess up with the s-cancel, be it missing, or being blocked, dodged, etc. Your own shield will be gone, so you'll get punished for making the mistake because defense is weakened.

The ps-cancel doesn't sound too bad but in turn it'd just be an l-cancel from 64 with a shield penalty, so you may as well make it as such. I could see both ideas put in as one though. Make it so that there's shield-canceling, which is simple, have a bigger shield decrease and then powershield-canceling (would it be okay just to call that power-canceling? I dunno that just sounds better to me) which is harder would drain your shield, though not as bad as just normal s-canceling.

Kind of like the difference between Guilty Gear's Roman Cancel and Forced Roman Cancel.
 

Canadian*Sniper

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
69
Location
North Vancouver
windowl has something against my newest videos which is why they're not listed on the front page :p

I read some of this thread and would like to give my opinion. Brawl is my least favourite game out of the 3 smash games. This is because it's very stale with it's autosweetspotting, no lcanceling, multiple air dodging, no shield stun, etc. These hacks make the game have more depth and to me, Depth = Fun. While I'd still rather play 64 or Melee, hacked Brawl (or Brawl+ that you're calling it) is a LOT better than normal brawl, both fun wise and competitive wise.

However, too many changes might hinder the game. I believe that Brawl's physics (different hitstun mechanic, blocky falcon, movesets, gravity, etc) should remain the same. This is because what we wanted in the first place was a Brawl with more depth (or so I thought anyways). With only 1 airdodge, the ability to get the fox trot effect from wavedashing, and a form of airattack lag canceling I'm sure we achieved just that. Everything else that people have mentioned seem more like personal preference which might hurt our chance into making a solid system for side tourneys out of this.

What I'm saying is, don't screw this up. This post is only my opinion but I'm sure the smash veterans in BC would agree with me on this.
 

cultofrubik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
452
Location
Orlando, Florida
I honestly doubt that this will get screwed up. :D

As I had mentioned much earlier about air-dodging [I apologize, I haven't been keeping up]. One can throw any item out of the Melee air dodge and then use their second jump and/or up-b.

Switching one's shield button to Z makes Wavedashing quite interesting - waaay easier to mix in triangle jump dancing with Wavedashes.

I'll definitely have to say that S-cancelling is flat out broken for a lot of characters. Link, Zelda, Snake, Ganon...
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I honestly doubt that this will get screwed up. :D

As I had mentioned much earlier about air-dodging [I apologize, I haven't been keeping up]. One can throw any item out of the Melee air dodge and then use their second jump and/or up-b.

Switching one's shield button to Z makes Wavedashing quite interesting - waaay easier to mix in triangle jump dancing with Wavedashes.

I'll definitely have to say that S-cancelling is flat out broken for a lot of characters. Link, Zelda, Snake, Ganon...
Are you using the latest SSBM Air Dodge code? (The one on the first page).
 

cAm8ooo

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
1,059
Location
Kentucky
anybody willing to find the list of things Panda wanted?

1. Damage
2. Knockback
3. Move start-up and cool-down
4. Changing the sizes of hitboxes
5. Priority
6. Damage-scaled knockback (meaning the increase in knockback of attacks as percents increase)
7. Hitstun
8. Speed of attack itself
9. Landing lag of aerials

or is that project pretty much done 4?
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,856
Location
Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
=_=

This is not the topic for Panda's project. And it's not 'done 4,' it's just closed to the masses. However, if you want to make suggestions about character balance, there is a thread for each character in their respective boards
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I just made a huge discovery with the wavedash! If you wavedash forward and then do a 2/3 circle backwards to the opposite diagnal (sp?) and execute an attack you will shoot backwards doing your attack. I have no capture devices but if you want to see it post here or P.M. me with your Brawl fc and Wii# and I will gladly send it to you. to view the replay you must have SSBM Airdodge 2.1, no tripping, and S-Cancel on.
 

cAm8ooo

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
1,059
Location
Kentucky
=_=

This is not the topic for Panda's project. And it's not 'done 4,' it's just closed to the masses. However, if you want to make suggestions about character balance, there is a thread for each character in their respective boards
Yes, i know its not the thread for the project, i just figured id ask yah considering you know more about the codes then i do. It doesnt deserve another thread to be flamed to death by the masses once more.
 

Megachuk

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 4, 2005
Messages
577
Location
Ft. Thomas, KY
well I just tried the hacks out last night with some friends. We all agree that it's a MUCH better game, it still needs more tweaking but it's well on it's way to being an actual competative fighting game. BTW, don't know if you guys know this but if you hold a direction and jump cancel grabs, you will fuking fly across the screen stupid fast. Doesn't work with samus, link, tlink, and any other grapple grab characters. But test it out with zelda first, cuz that's how we discovered it. We didn't get to play with it all too much, but it's neat as hell.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
What I'm saying is, don't screw this up. This post is only my opinion but I'm sure the smash veterans in BC would agree with me on this.
I don't think we have to worry about anything being screwed up. We have a lot of things that we can try, and if there are things we don't like that we tested for the mix then it's not like we're re-released Brawl to the world. We can take out anything that was tried that didn't fit.

Though I don't really agree on keeping Brawl's hitstun mechanic since with that is one of the things that makes it so that chasing a character you just launched while they're at a high percent of damage impossible.

I honestly doubt that this will get screwed up. :D

As I had mentioned much earlier about air-dodging [I apologize, I haven't been keeping up]. One can throw any item out of the Melee air dodge and then use their second jump and/or up-b.

Switching one's shield button to Z makes Wavedashing quite interesting - waaay easier to mix in triangle jump dancing with Wavedashes.

I'll definitely have to say that S-cancelling is flat out broken for a lot of characters. Link, Zelda, Snake, Ganon...
That's why the ideas of your shield getting damaged came up. So you can't keep doing it unless you want a taste of broken shield, which will also make you open for attack.
 

Mocha19

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Messages
202
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I'll definitely have to say that S-cancelling is flat out broken for a lot of characters. Link, Zelda, Snake, Ganon...
Definitely not so much with Link and Zelda, but definitely with the latter 2. More characters are crazy with it too. Sonic, Ike, Fox, and Falco for more. Especially Sonic and Ike. Sonic is so fast now, it's ********. And Ike has an answer to ALL of his powerful laggy aerials. =P
 

Makkun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
407
Location
Ypsilanti, MI
well I just tried the hacks out last night with some friends. We all agree that it's a MUCH better game, it still needs more tweaking but it's well on it's way to being an actual competative fighting game. BTW, don't know if you guys know this but if you hold a direction and jump cancel grabs, you will fuking fly across the screen stupid fast. Doesn't work with samus, link, tlink, and any other grapple grab characters. But test it out with zelda first, cuz that's how we discovered it. We didn't get to play with it all too much, but it's neat as hell.
Yeah someone discovered this on the day the code was released. I think they called it "perfect horizontal z-wavedash" or something. I made a seperate tag so that Z is changed from Zair to Shield so you can still do it.
 
Top Bottom