Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[MBlaze]

I got Brawl+, I love it but Melee air dodge does not mix well with he game at all...

 

[cultofrubik]

Is 1.3 out yet?

 

[Alopex]

Agreed. If we can't fix the perfect shield mechanic, we should at least find a way to make the shield decrease at a faster rate.

I don't think we need to make it decrease faster, because it does actually decrease at an acceptable rate.

The problem is that you can't shield pressure anymore because the shield stun is gone and the shield drop lag is practically non-existent. And the ease of the Perfect Shield means you can forgo using the shield altogether.

In Melee and 64, using the shield carelessly meant you could get caught in a Shield Break Combo due to the shield stun. The Brawl shield doesn't actually last that long, it just can't be pressured enough in Brawl for that to matter.

Samus' smash missile would be kinda broken if the rate shields were damaged were to be increased. Needless to say, I'm all for this idea xD

Projectile power in general is a huge problem in Brawl. Unfortunately, reduction of projectile efficacy is likely beyond the scope of what can be done with the codes.
Still, if the defensive power of the projectile user is significantly decreased, then projectiles will become inherently less powerful because the user will leave himself too vulnerable to approaches. Current Brawl shields make it easy for a projectile character to defend themselves once the opponent has approached.

 

[MBlaze]

I sense start-up lag in attacks and it's annoying as hell.... lol

 

[kupo15]

I got Brawl+, I love it but Melee air dodge does not mix well with he game at all...

Thats what I feel

Is 1.3 out yet?

I wish

I sense start-up lag in attacks and it's annoying as hell.... lol

As well as the ending lag for ground attacks. Before the hit stun hack, ppl could hit you back as you recover from performing your attack, I feel that hit stun generally eliminated this by allowing them to recover at the same time you recover which would explain why it doesn't fix the combo game. It guarantees you wont be hit back after connecting, but most of the time it still resets the momentum to neutral. Cant wait for more hit stun.

 

[hippyman69]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p7zyUqpHE&feature=related

yes i know the meteor could be avoided. but i sense chaingrabs all across the board. i think either throws should get increased knockback or no wavedashing (it's not necessary in brawl is it??). not as much as 64 knockback maybe because of the awesome shields. but a bit more. if possible

 

[C_Ferris32]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p7zyUqpHE&feature=related

yes i know the meteor could be avoided. but i sense chaingrabs all across the board. i think either throws should get increased knockback or no wavedashing (it's not necessary in brawl is it??). not as much as 64 knockback maybe because of the awesome shields. but a bit more. if possible

I agree. There are too many characters with too many out of shield options(or it's hard to punish them out of shield, either one), and since grabs are the only things sometimes to beat this, it would balance the gameplay more it they were a bit more powerful.

 

[Vulcan55]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p7zyUqpHE&feature=related

yes i know the meteor could be avoided. but i sense chaingrabs all across the board. i think either throws should get increased knockback or no wavedashing (it's not necessary in brawl is it??). not as much as 64 knockback maybe because of the awesome shields. but a bit more. if possible

I think that might be escapable.
He was playing a CPU after all.

 

[hippyman69]

I think that might be escapable.
He was playing a CPU after all.

true. but there no doubt that there will be others.

 

[oliwonder]

i don't know if this has already been found but I was messing with the melee air dodge system with link and found that if you have a bomb in hand, you can airdodge, then still be able to throw the bomb, and then do anything again after., such as another airdodge or UpB. This greatly helps his recovery.

 

[Grunt]

not to mention if you did get CG"d and then jabbed, you don't have to jump into the dair.
>.>

 

[hippyman69]

^yeh i think it has been found. thnx though

 

[leafgreen386]

...

I had a feeling that was the video you posted the moment I saw your comment. And I knew I was going to facepalm pretty hard. First off, ganon's dthrow has like no hitstun. Second off pika doesn't even need to airdodge/attack to get the ganon off, since it's as easy to avoid as DIing away from the ganon. Third... no... just... no... Attacks already send you far enough in brawl... making them send you further would just ruin any combo game that might exist with hitstun. And wavedashing will not help chain throws much at all. You're really overreacting.

 

[hippyman69]

^ u sure there was no hitstun??. looked like hitstun to me. but that vid didn't have the hitstun hack. im not ****ting bricks about wavedashing btw, just sayin more chain-grabs could happen. i really just want smash attacks to be buffed considering the ridiculous amount of time it takes to actually kill someone in brawl. you have to be really careful with stale moves, i guess its all part of it. dw then.

 

[leafgreen386]

Dthrow -> dash attack is not a combo. There is no way that dthrow -> wavedash -> dthrow is a combo.

We're working on other ways to make kills actually happen. If the edgeguarding game can be developed, then we won't need to adjust smash attacks. Fox's usmash already kills most characters around 80-90%. He doesn't need any help with that. And of course, fox isn't the only one with powerful smashes, either. A lot of characters can kill at decent percents with smashes. They aren't what need fixing.

 

[hippyman69]

Dthrow -> dash attack is not a combo. There is no way that dthrow -> wavedash -> dthrow is a combo.

We're working on other ways to make kills actually happen. If the edgeguarding game can be developed, then we won't need to adjust smash attacks. Fox's usmash already kills most characters around 80-90%. He doesn't need any help with that. And of course, fox isn't the only one with powerful smashes, either. A lot of characters can kill at decent percents with smashes. They aren't what need fixing.

fair enough. but it looked like pikachu was stuck in hitstun. i cant remember what brawls hitstun animation is. its been a while. lol. those were my 2 cents on the matter anyway. off to study (not smash bros) for me.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Samus' smash missile would be kinda broken if the rate shields were damaged were to be increased. Needless to say, I'm all for this idea xD

Samus is like the redheaded stepchild in this game, seeing as how ALL her projectiles suck balls. So this would be welcome.

 

[leafgreen386]

Pika was in tumble, but not in hitstun. The hitstun had already worn off by the time ganon grabbed again.

 

[Eten]

I think the hitstun is fine as is, as long as you can't attack/airdodge extra early out of it anymore, and the bugs in the hitstun code are removed. Looking for 64-like combos is ridiculous.

As for shields, I very strongly agree on that they are one of the biggest reasons why defensive game is so powerful in brawl. But all you really need to do is simply double shieldstun duration and add a little bit of time on the shield drop lag. I don't think we should be looking to let people put people into shield-break combos, just enough delay that you can't shield an attack and simply shield-drop retaliate. Save power-shielding for that.

 

[kupo15]

I think the hitstun is fine as is, as long as you can't attack/airdodge extra early out of it anymore, and the bugs in the hitstun code are removed. Looking for 64-like combos is ridiculous.
.

Omg, how many times do we have to say that we wont get 64 like epic combos? How many times do we have to say that the DI in brawl, plus a slower lag cancel, plus laggier attacks, plus slower air speed, plus easier ledges, plus moves that are programmed not to combo, plus a game thats not programmed to act like a fighting game at all, plus the attack decay system, plus a better shield and more teching will forbid 64 combos from coming back?

They might be similar but they wont be like, "memorize these button inputs in training mode and you can pull of 0-deaths 100%?" And they definitely wont be easy to do.

Why are you against longer stun time? It srsly is hardly enough and you act like its set in stone. Like once we increase it, itll break the game and it can never be changed. Id rather error with too much stun time because it is far easier to tell if you have too much stun over not enough.

And just because the old bugs were fixed doesn't mean there are new ones because the fact is....there are two bugs.

No stun on twirl hit stun
No stun after bouncing off of walls

Everyone, just stop saying that we are creating 64 ridiculous combos because it will never happen!

 

[Eten]

I didn't say you were creating ridiculous combos. I said you shouldn't be looking to duplicate 64-like combos, which IS something you've said you wish brawl had. I called THAT ridiculous. Deal with it.

 

[leafgreen386]

No one here wants to duplicate 64-like combos. This game should not and will not be a game of whoever gets the first hit wins. No one wants that, and I'm pretty sure you're just putting words into kupo's mouth at this point. What we do want and need are combos beyond the extremely limited options we have now. Most characters can still not combo with the hitstun we have. I mean... unless you count multihit attacks as "comboing." Like kupo said, if we add too much hitstun, it's easily fixable. Nothing is set in stone at this point.

 

[kupo15]

I didn't say you were creating ridiculous combos. I said you shouldn't be looking to duplicate 64-like combos, which IS something you've said you wish brawl had. I called THAT ridiculous. Deal with it.

I showed those 64 vids for fun. Its impossible to replicate that in brawl with its physics, attacks and improved def w/e. No, I dont want the first hit wins, I just want a decent combo system and that you should be able to combo very well if you are an excellent player by adjusting to DI and using your stale moves right and stuff. I feel that comboing in this game will be much harder than melee and the combos should be rewarding for how much more difficult they are. Atm, the combos are not rewarding in the slightest.

If we have too much hitstun, we tone it down. Simple as that.

 

[cultofrubik]

I don't know kupo. I'll have to say that Fox's Dair is an amazing combo. I don't think it gets any better than that.

 

[kupo15]

There are better combo characters out there than fox in brawl for sure atm. He lost a lot of his combo potential when they took out shine canceling. Who knows when we get the right hit stun code.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

mario is amazing at comboing.

 

[kupo15]

maybe, the problem with him is that most of his combo aerials are weak hits (pretty sure) with means they dont really put you in the tumble and if they do, the stun is minuscule. I can see his combos being better with more hit stun.

 

[Pikaville]

All these hacks are nearly too good to be true.Literally make Brawl infinitly better.Ike looks scary quick with hacks on really.

 

[Alopex]

I agree. There are too many characters with too many out of shield options(or it's hard to punish them out of shield, either one), and since grabs are the only things sometimes to beat this, it would balance the gameplay more it they were a bit more powerful.

Shields are too powerful, yes. Making grabs more powerful is actually a terrible thing and will only make shields even MORE powerful. Grabbing is the most direct out of shield option and one of the most effective things to do after using your shield. If you make grabs more powerful, you'll just make the defensive playstyle that much more dangerous. Approaches will be shield-grabbed even more and be that much more effective.

Once again, the issue is the shield itself, not the other things. It's the shield, especially the Perfect Shield, that we need to nerf.

As for shields, I very strongly agree on that they are one of the biggest reasons why defensive game is so powerful in brawl. But all you really need to do is simply double shieldstun duration and add a little bit of time on the shield drop lag. I don't think we should be looking to let people put people into shield-break combos, just enough delay that you can't shield an attack and simply shield-drop retaliate. Save power-shielding for that.

Perfect Shielding is part of the main problem. It's extremely easy to pull off in Brawl, as opposed to crazy hard in Melee.

Give however much shield drop lag you want to give to normal shields, if the Perfect Shield remains this easy to use, then it'll nullify any shield drop lag added because the Perfect Shield has no shield drop lag and is used constantly.
First make the Perfect Shield timing more difficult, then add shield stun and shield drop lag.

As for "looking to let people put people into shield-break combos", shield-break combos come naturally with shield stun. It's not something we put in the game, it's something people do when they can consistently keep the opponent trapped in shield stun.

It was a big part of 64 and Melee. They weren't abundant, and they weren't easy, but you always had to watch out for them. They were the disadvantage to shield-reliance. If you didn't use your shield intelligently, at appropriate times, then you risked getting caught in a shield-break combo.

Shield stun will bring them back regardless. We just need to make sure that they are rare occurrences, like they were in both previous Smash games. In fact, it was their rarity that made it soooo satisfying when you pulled one off. Trust me, shield-break combos are a good thing, as long as we, once again, make sure that it's not something that can be abused by anyone.

Have a look here and you'll see that, while possible, shield-break combos were exceedingly rare in Melee. Generally, they were more "shield pressuring" combos than "shield breaking".
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_break_combo


EDIT:
While I'm on this topic, let me just say that if auto-L-cancel and shield stun are both introduced and used, we need to make sure that the auto-L-cancel doesn't permit easy shield-breaks.

 

[MBlaze]

Phew one hell of a night with hacks. I installed everything and it's all working, I even treated myself to getting back SSB64 on my Wii. :D

I even got some friendlies online for Brawl+ and it felt so freakin great. What I think should be for Brawl+ is:

- L Cancelling
- 1 or 2 Brawl air dodges (Melee's doesn't mix with the game at all sad to say)
- Better hitstun (Being worked on)
- Sheild Stun
- Super Armor Frame Removal (Not so much as a necessity but my personal opinion)
- In addition to the limitless reolay hack, have the names of the players in the replays.

And another idea is when we decide on what's the regulations and stuff lets take all the codes and bundle them together in 1 file like in the tutotial thread.

Those are my thoughts on Brawl+ so far, any objections, agreements?

 

[kupo15]

Shields are too powerful, yes. Making grabs more powerful is actually a terrible thing and will only make shields even MORE powerful. Grabbing is the most direct out of shield option and one of the most effective things to do after using your shield. If you make grabs more powerful, you'll just make the defensive playstyle that much more dangerous. Approaches will be shield-grabbed even more and be that much more effective.

Once again, the issue is the shield itself, not the other things. It's the shield, especially the Perfect Shield, that we need to nerf.

We need to be looking down the road from now when we have things such as shield stun in place.....not the present.

But I agree with the underlined

Phew one hell of a night with hacks. I installed everything and it's all working, I even treated myself to getting back SSB64 on my Wii. :D

I even got some friendlies online for Brawl+ and it felt so freakin great. What I think should be for Brawl+ is:

- L Cancelling
- 1 or 2 Brawl air dodges (Melee's doesn't mix with the game at all sad to say)
- Better hitstun (Being worked on)
- Sheild Stun
- Super Armor Frame Removal (Not so much as a necessity but my personal opinion)
- In addition to the limitless reolay hack, have the names of the players in the replays.

And another idea is when we decide on what's the regulations and stuff lets take all the codes and bundle them together in 1 file like in the tutotial thread.

Those are my thoughts on Brawl+ so far, any objections, agreements?

I would take out the SA moves. Just learn to deal with it. I was thinking about a limited number of air dodges while keeping brawls air dodge system. I dont think melee air dodge mixes too well either.

 

[Alopex]

We need to be looking down the road from now when we have things such as shield stun in place.....not the present.

But I agree with the underlined

He wanted to increase grab power in order to make the shields more vulnerable.

The problem there is that grabs actually work both ways. They strengthen offense and defense. In general, though, they are a bigger asset for defense. Even in Melee, shield grabs were more advantageous than going for an offensive grab.

So if grabs always give more strength to defense, why do we want to make them more powerful?

Shield stun and more difficult Perfect Shield timing won't make defense too weak. We won't need to give the defense more powerful grabs to compensate.

Grab power is fine in Brawl. They aren't ridiculous like in 64, nor laughable like in Melee. A lot of them have kill potential and we have a good general diversity in grabs that helps characters distinguish themselves, like Ness.

 

[MBlaze]

We need to be looking down the road from now when we have things such as shield stun in place.....not the present.

But I agree with the underlined


I would take out the SA moves. Just learn to deal with it. I was thinking about a limited number of air dodges while keeping brawls air dodge system. I dont think melee air dodge mixes too well either.

I think we should go with that plan for air dodges.

 

[xicsrh]

I've been watching these threads since the first one with wavedashing, and I was wondering how we're ever going to come to a concensus on what features we want in Brawl+. There are so many differing opinions when it comes to air dodge, s/l-canceling, gravity, etc. Are we going to be able to come up with a game that will leave everyone satisfied? Or are we just going to go with whatever the majority wants?

 

[B.W.]

Grabs aren't laughable in Melee at all.

Grabs are quite important in Melee as a matter of fact. Throws are probably the number one combo starter in Melee.

The only game grabs and throws are laughable in is Brawl. 64 had grabs that killed, Melee had grabs that started combos. Brawl has grabs that either do absolutely nothing. And if they did something it was retardedly good as well as retardedly easy to do.

Strengthening the throws won't do much good. In fact it'd probably be very bad, as you'd be able to kill someone much too easily. In 64 the limit was forward and backward. But now we have up throws and we don't want to give every character the power to kill with an up throw at certain damages.

With the added hitstun they should be fine the way they are as they'll be able to set up for combos which will allow you to rack up damage. Then just like in the previous two games you'll have to land your kill move.

 

[Alopex]

Grabs aren't laughable in Melee at all.

I said grab power. And in Melee, it was laughable. Unless you were Mewtwo.

 

[B.W.]

My apologies, I misread.

 

[Alopex]

I'll agree with everything else you said. Except some characters will still be able to kill using their grabs (Ness, Olimar, PT, Mario...).


EDIT: Well, Brawl grabs aren't entirely useless. It's just that there's a huge gap between the good and the bad grabs.

I would definitely like to see grabs go back to being used offensively (like they were in Melee) by the entire Brawl cast, not just a select few.

Right now, grabs are mostly an excellent tool to rack up damage while being defensive, they're great at distancing you from your opponent. And since Brawl's defensiveness is a problem, that's a problem.

Hitstun should help Brawl grabs get offense use. But we need shield stun and harder Perfect Shield timing to make sure that it doesn't give them more defensive use instead.

Grabs should still be good defensive tools, and they're ability to distance yourself from your opponent is definitely a positive, but they should be equally used as an offense tool.

 

[M15t3R E]

I would love to see grabs becoming more useful with every character as well. The thing is, with the hitstun hack, our primary objective is to create new combos with every character. It'll be easy to tell when we've added enough hitstun, and once we do if grabs still aren't as useful as we'd like, the way they were in Melee, that's just too bad.

 

[Zero.K.Noble]

Um...I don't know if it's been said or nott....buuuut...
I think the elite edgeguard from Melee should be added, y'know...rolling onto the stage so the opponent couldnt grab the ledge until your rolling animation was finished? I kinda miss that...