Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ yes ness can di out of f-smash most of the time but not always up-smash and all this means is that the zelda will have to use her tilts more. i am not sure but i think ness is one her d-tilt can lock in and then a nice down smash to send the ness off at a great angle is pretty bad for ness. plus zelda's f-tilt has good range and can be angled and her up-tilt is a real killer which hits at many angles.

one of the best things about zelda is all the options she has to dmg and kill with so if one thing is not working you always have another.

 

[BentoBox]

So... Toon Link's only bad matchups are olimar and zelda? Is it me or nobody pays any attention to that who was once rumored to be god tier. :[

 

[DanGR]

^ all i was saying was he should of put one on both the ness board and the zelda board. and also it came out sounding mean b/c of the caps but that was not my intent

edit: i was just in a mood (not a bad mood) but a mood that eve through i saw it came out sounding mean i did not care enough to fix it. so ether a mood that lacked caring or an ******* mood one of the 2

I wasn't offended the slightest bit. no offense taken. I'm just pointing out that everything that guide said was true and proves(to me at least) that ness>zelda.

 

[Smashbros_7]

^ yes ness can di out of f-smash most of the time but not always up-smash and all this means is that the zelda will have to use her tilts more. i am not sure but i think ness is one her d-tilt can lock in and then a nice down smash to send the ness off at a great angle is pretty bad for ness. plus zelda's f-tilt has good range and can be angled and her up-tilt is a real killer which hits at many angles.

one of the best things about zelda is all the options she has to dmg and kill with so if one thing is not working you always have another.

But still, she still is at a disadvantage if she can't use her smashes!

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I still don't understand why Marth is listed as disadvantaged against Falco.

Chain Grab = Useless versus Marth.

Marth has a grab -> death combo on Falco.

The only move that outranges Marth is F-Smash, which is punishable.

Laser camping doesn't mean crap versus a character that can run fast and move in the air nearly as fast.

Seriously people... what the deuce?

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

You need to link to the Olimar matchup chart that is actually updated:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222

Also, Peach beats Olimar. The matchup is pretty much unfair. Quoted from aib:

Olimar : 30-70 vs Peach. I'm not joking. I think this is pretty generous too. This is a horrible, horrible matchup for Olimar. I regularly 3 stock Olimar's if that have never played me. Let me explain.

A) Peach's back air will outprioritize anything Olimar has, and she can jab before his grab comes out from any of her landing aerials. Thus, it is impossible for Olimar to ever grab a smart Peach.

B) Down air will beat out all besides purple pikmin, and outprioritizes Olimar's forward and up airs, and upsmash.

C) Peach bomber will bounce off pikmin, making her free to spam it for approach while Olimar throws Pikmin.

D) Turnips **** his recovery. One turnip and you can edgehog him.

E) Forward air will also outpriotize his upsmash AND still hit him through it.

F) Olimar can't grab peach. Jab comes out too fast when she lands. If he doesn't grab, she can grab him upon landing.

G) One downsmash will kill all the pikmin on her.

There just isn't much Olimar has going for him besides purple pikmin and using his UP B to mess up her float approaches. But if Peach adjusts to it she can land and then get in a free forward smash. Even if she doesn't adjust to it, its just a small hit, low percentage, and doesn't do much. Not to mention he needs to be holding all his pikmin for it to have much reach, pikmin bettere served throwing at her.

If Olimar DOES hit her, he can kill her at decent percentages though. That's the only reason I made it 30-70. But the Olimar has to be pretty **** tricky to land any of his smashes on her.

 

[DanGR]

rapid, I've only played a couple peaches and I screwed them over, but I trust your judgment on this one simply b/c it reminds me of Sheik v Olimar which I believe is in sheik's advantage. A,B,E,F, and G are all true for sheik as well.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

You need to link to the Olimar matchup chart that is actually updated:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222

Also, Peach beats Olimar. The matchup is pretty much unfair. Quoted from aib:

**** that sounds bad lol.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

But still, she still is at a disadvantage if she can't use her smashes!

like i have said i have not played enough ness's to say who has the advantage on who, also even if ness has the advantage most people i feel are now thinking its a 6:4 so really it does not matter to me if ness has that advantage b/c 6:4 really does not mean anything to me. also i don't mind people thinking they have an easy fight against my zelda it just makes it all the sweeter when i beat them.

one last thing i would want to point out i that even through ness can di out of f-smash it is not 100% and if spaced right the zelda could have it so they only hit with the strong last shot of it which can send people at a very nice angle. i am just pointing this out to say that f-smash is not completly usless this is not some kind of f-smash is great and beats ness thing, it seems to me a good ness can most of the time di out of f-smash

 

[AlexOFranco]

Could u recheck the Captain Falcon vs. Snake match-up cause I`m not good with Cap, Falcon and I beat a level 9 Snake with ease.

 

[BentoBox]

Jesus has spoken.

 

[gantrain05]

Could u recheck the Captain Falcon vs. Snake match-up cause I`m not good with Cap, Falcon and I beat a level 9 Snake with ease.

thats because a level 9 snake doesn't play anything like a human player, if u played a good human snake with captain falcon u would most likely get 2-3 stocked.

 

[asob4]

rapid, I've only played a couple peaches and I screwed them over, but I trust your judgment on this one simply b/c it reminds me of Sheik v Olimar which I believe is in sheik's advantage. A,B,E,F, and G are all true for sheik as well.

that quote for the peach match up was from edrees, he has the most beastly peach i have ever seen/played

we settled on 65-35 just because olimar can get quick kills

 

[iredecent]

really well made chart, i have to say impressive. (sorrry to inturrupt the debate)

 

[PhantomBrawler]

I still don't understand why Marth is listed as disadvantaged against Falco.

Chain Grab = Useless versus Marth.

Marth has a grab -> death combo on Falco.

The only move that outranges Marth is F-Smash, which is punishable.

Laser camping doesn't mean crap versus a character that can run fast and move in the air nearly as fast.

Seriously people... what the deuce?

The reason is this:

Marth can be grabbed twice using the chain grab and that sets up for an easy DLX(for those who dont know thats a dash attack canceled into upsmash), that couples into a rough 40 damage for every life on marth. Marth is also ***** by projectiles and falcos is arguably one of the best projectiles in the game. Falco's Shine keeps marth at bay, paired with lasers and good spacing leaves the game in falcos hands. Though this is not an easy match-up by any means. A Falco who spaces well will have no trouble against Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are good Falcos even beating good Marth's?

I know Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlons Falco.

Anyway I think the match is even. All Falco really has is camping vs Marth and an easy combo at low damage.

Marth outdoes him every where else.

And Marth doesn't get ***** by projectiles.

Rest assured the only reason Marth doesn't get a 60/40 in this match is due to Falco's shine.

Otherwise lasers alone would not be enough to keep a good Marth at bay.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

The reason is this:

Marth can be grabbed twice using the chain grab and that sets up for an easy DLX(for those who dont know thats a dash attack canceled into upsmash), that couples into a rough 40 damage for every life on marth. Marth is also ***** by projectiles and falcos is arguably one of the best projectiles in the game. Falco's Shine keeps marth at bay, paired with lasers and good spacing leaves the game in falcos hands. Though this is not an easy match-up by any means. A Falco who spaces well will have no trouble against Marth.

This post is so wrong I surprised Emblem Lord didn't correct it.

You can't grab Marth after you D-throw, regardless of my %. I have this thing called Dolphin Slash. It gives me invincibility frames from 1-5. You can't grab me then. On frame 5, I pull out a huge, high knockback hitbox that will smack your hand away if you try. Same goes for that Dash Attack Cancel your trying to pull off.

Don't try that stuff. What you think is 40 damage against, is really 10 or so, and 13 against you from the Slash.

Now thats out of the way, time to dispell the biggest myth in Smash Bros.

Lasers do not screw up Marth. He's not big, he's not slow. He's amongst the fastest in the air. You know what that means? You can't camp me, because I'll always be able to catch up to you. Heck, if I do it right, I can do it without damage.

Then we talk about the Shine. The shine is good, I will give you that. Its probably the only reason this matchup isn't pure **** for Marth. You can whip that thing out, and it will slow me down. But its not the be all and end all of my approach. Marth has enough speed and range that if I shield that shine, your getting hit. Probably by something like my F-tilt, but its more likely my Dancing Blade, which will do anything between 15 to 20 damage.

The matchup isn't EASY for Marth. I have to work to get around lasers and Shines before I can lay down the hurt. However, its not easy for you either. Once I'm in your bubble, Falco has no decent ways to get Marth out of there, considering your normal close quarters strength -the Chain Grab-, is useless versus Marth. Its a neutral matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you, read that V




you didn't read Cazcom's very in depth matchup guide, did you. What are you talking about when you say "IT IS FROM THE NESS BOARD WERE PEOPLE WOULD BE BIAS FOR NESS". I read the whole guide, and nothing I saw was totally bias. It was all true. facts=truth.

LOL hahahahahahaha

first sentence about the from the official matchup thread:

This is one of the easiest match-ups for Ness. Most Zelda users rely heavily on Din’s Fire for their distance game. This major part of their game should be a non-factor now that they are facing an opponent who can heal.

seriously... this thread no longer deserves my time

Ask Raph... if Zelda is ness's easiest matchup... then he sucks to high heaven because it's an easy one

 

[DragoonAnger]

Why does Sheik have an advantage against Diddy? I can't think of a single reason why she should.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fishkeeper are you sure Falco can't CG Marth repeatedly?


I haven't seen a Marth break free with a dolphin slash.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All you have to do is hold up and mash b lol.

But I'm pretty sure d-throw to dash attack cancelled U-smash can't be escaped.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

All you have to do is hold up and mash b lol.

But I'm pretty sure d-throw to dash attack cancelled U-smash can't be escaped.

I've done it to the DAC, but then again, this could be an factor of my opponents skillz, not the character in general.

Though, this means thats still only 30%, and only if Marth is at a low %. At higher %'s, its extremely easy to Up+B out of the combo. Exactly how high? Somewhere around 15-20%. So, there is only a small window of opportunity to abuse that staple of Falco's game.

Likewise, Marth can only abuse the F-Throw chain from hell when Falco is low %. So, both player need to be weary in the opening seconds of a new stock, more evidence that this match up is practically even, IMO.

 

[Browny]

Lasers do not screw up Marth. He's not big, he's not slow. He's amongst the fastest in the air. You know what that means? You can't camp me, because I'll always be able to catch up to you. Heck, if I do it right, I can do it without damage.

meh, people still think its easy to camp sonic with projectiles as well >_>

btw marth is equal 11th (horizontal speed), so hes not exactly among the fastest

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

meh, people still think its easy to camp sonic with projectiles as well >_>

btw marth is equal 11th (horizontal speed), so hes not exactly among the fastest

Well, he certainly feels fast. When you consider the fastest people in the air (Yoshi/Wario/Jiggly) all have poor running speeds, Marth's air speed speed seems higher in comparison with his run speed.

Practically, Marth is just fast, in almost every category.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I actually prefer Brawl marth to melee Marth. He isn't as overly powerfula s he was in melee IMO.

Its stupid though that all his attributes went to MK though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's Marth's running speed, good aerial speed and the height of his SH that give him such great mobility. None of these things is amazing by themselves, but no other character has such a good combination of these three things. He is good in all categories so he ends up with excellent mobility.

Marth's multiple jumps, gliding ability and tornado went to MK?

Oh wait...

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, but his grab range and sword range did.

 

[Emblem Lord]

-_-

Why did you have to say something like this? I actually like you too.

*sigh

Does MK grab people an entire character length away like Marth did in Melee? No.

MK's dash grab is good, but Marth's dash grab was never that good.

Also his range went to MK? The only move that MK has that outranges Marth is his d-tilt, but Marth's F-smash still outranges that.

So I what I want to know is...

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

No, but his grab range and sword range did.

I miss having a grab range that went farther than my hand.

I also miss having a sword that didn't look like a toy. The length of the thing in Brawl looks disproportionate to my body. Decrease the range by Marth keeping his arms closer to his body, not by making his Sword look ********.

Actually, I wish they had have kept Marth's F-Smash range. Marth has no safe kill move now because of it...

But more than anything I miss a Link that could played on a tournament level...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth NEVER had any safe kill moves.

ShadowLink: I think what you meant to say is...MK is far more broken then Marth and has stolen his thunder. But you didn't really know how to express it so you just said some stuff that you felt might be accurate correct?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Marth NEVER had any safe kill moves.

ShadowLink: I think what you meant to say is...MK is far more broken then Marth and has stolen his thunder. But you didn't really know how to express it so you just said some stuff that you felt might be accurate correct?

I dunno, I usually found F-Smash to be pretty safe in Melee. It was definitely better than it is now!

Not to mention that non-deteriorating attacks made F-airs a lot more killable. And N-airs didn't have ******** angles... And Shieldbreaker could edgeguard well.

Marth had an easier time killing in Melee. I have no doubt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think everyone did except for characters that became abyssmal.

Also I guess your opponents never WDed from shield and ripped your face off after a blocked F-smash.

Then again I live in the same state as M2K.

Also wtf? ALL of Marth's aerials have greater knockback now. Tipper Fairs knocked you upwards in Melee.

And overall Marth is a better character in Brawl then Melee. If he still had his old range he would be ********.

 

[ShadowLink84]

-_-

Why did you have to say something like this? I actually like you too.

A few things that I've been hearing lately.

*cookie of apology*

Does MK grab people an entire character length away like Marth did in Melee? No.

MK's dash grab is good, but Marth's dash grab was never that good.

Actually when I meant grab range I was including both dash grab range and regular grab range.

Also his range went to MK? The only move that MK has that outranges Marth is his d-tilt, but Marth's F-smash still outranges that.

I heard somebody say that MK's sword extend a bit further than it appears.

And overall Marth is a better character in Brawl then Melee. If he still has his old range he would be ********,

I think he was stronger because of his grabs range and his swords range.
I do prefer what they did to a few of his moves though, nuetral B truly is a shield breaker.
Its a bit sad that he lost a good amount of his combo ability.
No more ken combo.


And yes I also think MK stolen his thunder.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's grab range in Melee puts Dedede's grab range in Brawl to shame.

I assure you that MK's standing grab range has nothing on Marth's melee grab range. Even now Marth's standing grab range is very good. I'm pretty sure it's ranked third out of non tether grabs after Dedede and Charizard.

 

[Pikaville]

I find Marth alot smoother to play in brawl rather than melee.I do notice the grab thing a lot though..........and Wavedashed F smashes....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh yeah that reminds me I ahve to look up the grab range rankings. I was curious on what Sonic's was listed at.

 

[Mez]

Afer seeing the Peach Match up line i saw something veeeeeeeeeeeeery wrong, and it is....how the hell does olimar has advantage over her?!?!?! She most definetly counters him and here are some videos of 2 pro smashers here in my country on a tournament match u will clearly see the disadvantage (****) that olimar has http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FapB78nPECc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNz6lndU4Y&feature=related (this one was b4 shadow moses was banned)

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Can we please change the IC-Lucario matchup to neutral or advantage IC's becuase
1) Ice block cancels out Aura sphere, one of his bigger assets. If you have 2 Ic's, then 1 will cancel out the sphere, and the second will continue going. Ice block can also gimp him during the startup of his recovery
2) Lucario usually wont be able to chaingrab them. He can only grab one, so the other can counter attack while he grabs
3)Aerial game. Their uair goes through his all powerfull dair, and juggles. Fair spikes. Bair Kos. The rest goes to Lucario though
4. Their smash are much quicker than his, and they rival his power if together
5) IC's can still chaingrab to death

 

[ShadowLink84]

1.Yeah it cancels, but he can use counter to approach them or simply avoid them.
2. True, but CG is nowhere near as good as Falco and he doesn't rely on it.
3.What!? I'll say yes to the Uair but no to everything else.
Lucario's Fair is faster, with less lag at the end so he can cause more damage with it.
Its nice to have range, but better to have speed coupled with that range.
Bair has greater range and it KO's as well.
Dair is better than theirs and can be used after a Fair or many other moves.
Let alone the fact that the Uair from IC's has a narrow hitbox so the Dair can get around it.
4. Their range however is far lesser than his. He has lesser speed but the range more than makes up for it.
5. He can separate them easily and maintain distance.

 

[Kasai]

Can we please change the IC-Lucario matchup to neutral or advantage IC's becuase
1) Ice block cancels out Aura sphere, one of his bigger assets. If you have 2 Ic's, then 1 will cancel out the sphere, and the second will continue going. Ice block can also gimp him during the startup of his recovery

They aren't that hard to avoid and there is no reason why he would need to spam battle. Simply shield or jump. They also have very very little in air horizontal movement now so unless he's like directly below the stage, they wouldn't hit him off stage

2) Lucario usually wont be able to chaingrab them. He can only grab one, so the other can counter attack while he grabs

Lucario's chaingrab isn't really even taken into account other than against Snake, the spacies and a few other heavy characters like DK/Ike. He wouldn't try therefore it wouldn't be a problem that he couldn't

3)Aerial game. Their uair goes through his all powerfull dair, and juggles. Fair spikes. Bair Kos. The rest goes to Lucario though

It may go through but if the lucario spaces it right, he couldn't simply stall above the IC and then use it again. Or, like shadowlink said, he could go to the side because it's larger horizontal hitbox would let him hit where they miss. As far as the other things you mentioned about aerials, Lucario's bair definitely out ranges IC's fair and it also has good killing power. His fair is much quicker and it chains very nicely. In general lucario's air game is very very good. Fair leads into many of his other aerials (including the powerful dair)

4. Their smash are much quicker than his, and they rival his power if together

See shadowlink's post. The range of lucario's smashes is much larger than the IC's. It makes up for the speed.

5) IC's can still chaingrab to death

Again, see shadowlink's post. Spacing spacing spacing.



In addition to all of this, the gimping ability of Lucario is more so than that of the ice climbers in this matchup. If they try to attack him, he can simply use his aerials to interrupt them. While they are recovering, a RAR'ed bair or chain of nairs could easily either push them to the point of no return or at least end up killing Nana.


Lucario has the advantage here.