Brawl+ Character Balance : Character 6: ICE CLIMBERS (LAST THOUGHTS)

[Panix]

qft

I was thinking about this the whole time.

The only way I was thinking about making the IC's Viable was making there knock back and camping game stronger, if you were going to take out the infinite's.

There knockback game is only sub-par.There camping game is less then average, and the only thing left after making there grabs disappear is that their back throw to up smash would still be nice.

unless throwing them back changed to a higer angle then it already is =).

 

[Zodac]

what about if they could chain-grab to like 45-75% (char dependent) + a follow up attack or something?

like falco...

 

[fullynick]

no guys bowsers fully charged f-smash in b+ is broken cos if it hits u ur dead no matter what

just think of chaingrabbing as a tough to land, one hit ko

 

[Team Giza]

just think of chaingrabbing as a tough to land, one hit ko

I got nothing against Ice Climbers having guaranteed (or near guaranteed) death combos from a grab at any percentage but I am against them having a chainthrow that never needs to stop. Lets think of ourselves as game designers. We are making this game, not deciding what should be allowed in a tournament for a game that wasn't tested thoroughly.

Infinites are bad game design in smash bros more so than other fighting games. Since you never have to KO them the match can just keep going until the timer runs out 8 mins later. I would rather get rid of all things that have the potential of doing this rather than leaving them in the game. I would really like to get rid of the need for rules to stop combos due to stalling. Throw to throw combo is a true infinite and can go on forever which means that someone could potentially stall the rest of the match with it.

 

[fullynick]

couldnt u just somehow put a cap at 200% to avoid stalling?

EDIT: like, nana cant grab someone at above 200%?

 

[Likeness101]

I got nothing against Ice Climbers having guaranteed (or near guaranteed) death combos from a grab at any percentage but I am against them having a chainthrow that never needs to stop. Lets think of ourselves as game designers. We are making this game, not deciding what should be allowed in a tournament for a game that wasn't tested thoroughly.

Infinites are bad game design in smash bros more so than other fighting games. Since you never have to KO them the match can just keep going until the timer runs out 8 mins later. I would rather get rid of all things that have the potential of doing this rather than leaving them in the game. I would really like to get rid of the need for rules to stop combos due to stalling. Throw to throw combo is a true infinite and can go on forever which means that someone could potentially stall the rest of the match with it.

Sounds like you are saying lets get rid of nana. (I know your not). Let's face it, the IC grab game is there only really good thing. Some changes I would like to see if they were not already posted:

Dtilt is faster

Ice Blocks come out faster

Ftilt faster

Just liek to point out something. You rarely see IC mains stall a match out. They infinite and get it overwith. They don't go to 200% an rarely even 150% as they could just kill you off the top or the side.

Uthrow nerfed so they can combo in case I mess up the CG

Make Fair a viable approach some how

Hah hah, Cape took most of my reasons.

 

[lain]

Why should a character with no grab range, running speed, priority, and bad horizontal air mobility have the one thing banned that makes them NOT broken, but redeems them and makes them good?

IC infinite is based on so many variables too. Where you are, where Nana is, how heavy the character is, how well you can actually perform the infinite (trust me folks, it's not "hard" to do per-se, but to do it consistently is a whole other story, and I'm pretty much the only guy (besides prolly like Ambrose and Meep) who can do it with near 100% consistency). Oh and you have double the chance to trip and thus **** up the cg.

Also, people camp me megahard. Which means they're spacing well and sometimes platform camping, thus making it an absolute nightmare to get a grab.

 

[Team Giza]

Sounds like you are saying lets get rid of nana. (I know your not). Let's face it, the IC grab game is there only really good thing.

When the heck did I say get rid of their grab game? I still want the Ice climbers to have very possible 0% to death combos from a single grab. I just don't want it to be alternating grabs all the way through. I want to improve the Ice Climber's grabbing game by making a lot of moves set up for grabs (which can be used in combos for regrabs as well). I really think we need to make more situations were desyncs will occur to accomplish this. If anything the ideas that Cape and I have suggested would make Nana more important than she is currently because she will be doing more to help you get that first grab.

IC infinite is based on so many variables too. Where you are, where Nana is, how heavy the character is, how well you can actually perform the infinite (trust me folks, it's not "hard" to do per-se, but to do it consistently is a whole other story, and I'm pretty much the only guy (besides prolly like Ambrose and Meep) who can do it with near 100% consistency). Oh and you have double the chance to trip and thus **** up the cg.

Tripping isn't in brawl+, so no you don't have to worry about that. I'm not saying its not hard to do. I'm saying that we can do better than what is currently there. I still want Ice Climbers to have 0 to deaths on hopefully all characters but I do not want it to be the same dull repeating throw to regrab over and over again.

 

[JustNoOne]

Than why not make people only have like 1 frame to regrab the character? You have the ability to change the speed on the knockback of stuff right? So why not change the speed of the knockback of the throws making it hard making it hard for the ICs user to regrab in a quick session?

 

[The Cape]

Justnoone, that is an interesting idea. I think that is an excellent way to look at it.

If we can get throws to work >.>

Also, throws some of the buffs in the first page in?

 

[JustNoOne]

I guess so, but really they are bad in Brawl+, I must be honest, they act like they're some sloppy joes on grease and glue. More aerial movement and traction for sure is needed.

 

[AndreVeloso]

The idea of Brawl+ was to make a great, fun and competitive game to play. Correct? Yes.
However, the infinite grab game makes the other player powerless to death. It slows the game a whole lot more and the game is suddenly played defensive again so characters don't get grabbed. There should be a time after a grab where it is impossible to grab the other character again (say a full second). Make the Ice climbers a little bit stronger together and a lot stronger alone.

 

[snipeshow]

I think that the infinites should definately be out. How can someone think one grab = death is fair?

 

[cobaltblue]

1) stuff

I just wanted to say terion said everything I would have said in response a hell of a lot better than I can put it. I don't know how I can further convey to you that keeping a one crap tactic when you can rebuild the character to actually have more options makes no sense. Damage, hit stun, knock back, recovery, elemental effects of moves, etc are possiable to change now.

But this is going in circles.

 

[Revven]

I'm willing to give up the infinite if ICs mains don't mind it being gone and prefer to have a completely different metagame for Brawl+.

 

[The Cape]

I love the ICers CG game. I just dont like the fact that they have an unDIable infinite. Buff the character ALOT in all aspects (see my post on first page) and either make it so Nana cant grab for X frames during Popo throw or make their desync timing a bit longer.

 

[CountKaiser]

If the infinite is so hard to perform, and , from what I can tell, impractical in most brawl+ situations, why argue to keep it in when it does almost nothing for the charater?

The IC are worse in B+ than in vBrawl, and apparently all they have left that makes them somewhat viable is their infinite. The infinite, though, is nearly impossible to pull off consistently. Wouldn't it be better to have more options avaliable to you that allow you to make use of their grab game, but not their infinite?

People say that without the infinite, we'd have to rework their character from the ground up. I say that even with the infinite, we'd have to rework the charcater. They aren't sweeping tourneys, and they are still worse than their vBrawl counterpart. They would need the buffs anyway.

 

[Anth0ny]

Why should a character with no grab range, running speed, priority, and bad horizontal air mobility have the one thing banned that makes them NOT broken, but redeems them and makes them good?

IC infinite is based on so many variables too. Where you are, where Nana is, how heavy the character is, how well you can actually perform the infinite (trust me folks, it's not "hard" to do per-se, but to do it consistently is a whole other story, and I'm pretty much the only guy (besides prolly like Ambrose and Meep) who can do it with near 100% consistency). Oh and you have double the chance to trip and thus **** up the cg.

Also, people camp me megahard. Which means they're spacing well and sometimes platform camping, thus making it an absolute nightmare to get a grab.

The man has spoken. Keep the infinite, I say nerf the up smash to make it a little harder for the infinite to be successfully pulled off (MK dies at 120% from the upsmash, maybe 150% would be a little more reasonable? Guys like lain and Ambrose get MK to 120% like it's nothing), then buff a bunch of the other moves so that the grab doesn't become ICs entire game.

I mean, let's remember the additional knockback here. Comboing is now possible, so it's easier to split the climbers up, easier to combo the single climbers, easier to kill the separated climber, and suddenly, there's no CG.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Why remove the infinite. Its what makes them viable in the first place. In vbrawl they are hard to even land a grab with. In brawl+ they can be combo'd and the infinite is harder. So why must it go? Just leave it as it is.

 

[Adetque]

Buff their other moves, remove the infinites. We're trying to make it more fun, right?

 

[iSpiN]

I'm sure the idea is being organized in the Broom but lets look at our choices:

Infinite or Plain CG

How much should Nana be nerfed

If Nana was given grab delay could that possibly help create new infinites?

How many things are we overlooking with a desynced Nana/Popo?


I think IC's are incredibly sloopy characters that rely soley on "LOL GRAB". While I do support the "don't get grab" slogan, I don't think it will be the same case here. You can nerf their main strat of infinites but they wouldn't get buffed as much. It will be interesting to see how this develops, but whoever said we should have done IC's last was spot on.

 

[Eight 52]

Cging has always been apart of the Ice Climbers game, however, there was more to their game then just that. I'm more in favor of getting rid of the standing infinite and allowing the other cgs that are DIable and such. Also, buff the normal game in order to have more options than ps to grab.

I can't say much since I don't play Icies though :[

Edit: I also agree ICies should be last. They are the most complicated characters in the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Why should a character with no grab range, running speed, priority, and bad horizontal air mobility have the one thing banned that makes them NOT broken, but redeems them and makes them good?

IC infinite is based on so many variables too. Where you are, where Nana is, how heavy the character is, how well you can actually perform the infinite (trust me folks, it's not "hard" to do per-se, but to do it consistently is a whole other story, and I'm pretty much the only guy (besides prolly like Ambrose and Meep) who can do it with near 100% consistency). Oh and you have double the chance to trip and thus **** up the cg.

Also, people camp me megahard. Which means they're spacing well and sometimes platform camping, thus making it an absolute nightmare to get a grab.

Probably the most important post in here.

Infinites are bad game design in smash bros more so than other fighting games. Since you never have to KO them the match can just keep going until the timer runs out 8 mins later. I would rather get rid of all things that have the potential of doing this rather than leaving them in the game. I would really like to get rid of the need for rules to stop combos due to stalling. Throw to throw combo is a true infinite and can go on forever which means that someone could potentially stall the rest of the match with it.

So far, Giza is the only person to even bring up a valid point.

I will admit that taking control away from an opposing player entirely, regardless of other circumstances, for a prolong period of time is stalling. And in theory, this could present a problem because the IC can continue the infinite to run out the timer.

However, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, this is where you need to take player skill in to consideration. This is not a solid, sound proof argument as player skill varies as is subjective depending upon a whole assortment of variables, however. Most IC mains (good ones like Ambrose and Lain) can do it consistently, but that does not mean they can continue indefinitely. The likely hood is that they will in fact mess up at some percent, and the most important goal is to land a kill rather than stall the match, since continuing the CG at a percent higher than needed only serves to put the IC at risk should they mess up and release their opponent.

I have brought up the fact that if it is possible, someone will learn it. I encourage people to be realistic about this, but it is a point I made.

Than why not make people only have like 1 frame to regrab the character? You have the ability to change the speed on the knockback of stuff right? So why not change the speed of the knockback of the throws making it hard making it hard for the ICs user to regrab in a quick session?

Because that doesn't eliminate the problem at hand, and it is already difficult enough to execute. There are even reports of IC mains claiming that the infinite is harder to do in Brawl Plus due to the gravity changes.

The idea of Brawl+ was to make a great, fun and competitive game to play. Correct? Yes.
However, the infinite grab game makes the other player powerless to death. It slows the game a whole lot more and the game is suddenly played defensive again so characters don't get grabbed. There should be a time after a grab where it is impossible to grab the other character again (say a full second). Make the Ice climbers a little bit stronger together and a lot stronger alone.

The opposing player is powerless when they are grabbed, which has requirements in order to work. And you're assuming the game will be played defensively. With ALR, characters can combat the IC without fear of defensive tactics. They have to be mindful, but they don't need to camp to win.

Also, I hate making references to Melee in an argument, however it is appropriate here... In Melee, where the IC could infinite you from a single grab, the game play didn't change pace or slow down. Characters were still aggressive, fast, what have you. This was largely due to the increased shield stun and less landing lag, along with faster dash speed and higher gravity. We have all of these things now.

I think that the infinites should definately be out. How can someone think one grab = death is fair?

Bowsers FSmash = death now. I guess that isn't fair either right?

If the infinite is so hard to perform, and , from what I can tell, impractical in most brawl+ situations, why argue to keep it in when it does almost nothing for the charater?

The IC are worse in B+ than in vBrawl, and apparently all they have left that makes them somewhat viable is their infinite. The infinite, though, is nearly impossible to pull off consistently. Wouldn't it be better to have more options avaliable to you that allow you to make use of their grab game, but not their infinite?

People say that without the infinite, we'd have to rework their character from the ground up. I say that even with the infinite, we'd have to rework the charcater. They aren't sweeping tourneys, and they are still worse than their vBrawl counterpart. They would need the buffs anyway.

It doesn't do absolutely nothing for the character. If a grab is landed, they lose a stock. It is very similar to Jigglypuffs Rest (and Jigglypuffs Rest is better, imagine that). But the IC need to be mindful about how they go about getting that grab, and they are by no means capable of winning by going for the grab only in a match against someone even remotely knowledgeable.

You don't improve a character by taking away a redeeming quality, you improve them by giving them more redeeming qualities. And the infinites have been present with the IC since Melee, they are unique to that character alone. Unless everyone feels the need to remove them for the sake of a different feel of ICs, I don't see why we should remove that quality (barring in mind it isn't a threat to the meta game).

Buff their other moves, remove the infinites. We're trying to make it more fun, right?

And what if I find the infinites fun? What if other IC mains find the infinites fun?

Fun is subjective and arbitrary, and the discussion of it only creates circle talk. You might think a player is crazy for finding an infinite fun, but that doesn't change anything. They may find it fun. It is opinion purely, and you can't argue against that. So please stick to logical arguments.


Also, I am in complete agreement that the IC should have been discussed near the end of all this. Brawl Plus is still developing, and this is a very controversial topic that could involve the whole community in its decision. I don't think introducing this topic early was for the best.

 

[CloneHat]

Uvelo, if you find infinites fun, that is because you are the one performing them, not the other way around.

The Ice Climbers should not be viable characters simply because of a chain grab, and be useless otherwise. That is why Brawl+ exists. Infinites are not competitive or tournament legal, and they should be removed. Please understand that the Ice Climber's metagame is not tied to chain grabs, it can be changed by buffing other moves extremely easily.

 

[kupo15]

I just want to point out that in brawl+ where we have hitstun and ALR and a wide variety of options over vbrawl, the IC's should have an easier time landing the grab because they have better setups for grabs due to these functioning game mechanics that wasn't present before. It is extremely hard to grab in vbrawl because the game offered little to no help in any respect which includes grabbing. This means that they can behave as a normal character using their full moveset to set up for a grab much easier and earlier than they could before. So I don't see how "getting the grab" being hard applies anymore

 

[The Cape]

However, at the risk of sounding hypocritical

Bowsers FSmash = death now. I guess that isn't fair either right?

Less knock back on Shuttle Loop? Do I need to give you more examples on why this move isn't in need of a knock back reduction? DI severely damages this move. Learn to DI Cape.

So the things you say only matter in the current context and when they support your arguements huh? Boozer F smash isnt a one hit kill with DI. Learn to DI Ulevo.



As for the ICers infinite grab. I would like to see the climbers get buffed in many areas to make them a more viable character (as per my post on the first page). I oppose the throw to throw infinite as it is in fact and unDIable, inescapable infinite. Difficulty should not matter as there will be someone out there who will learn how to do it successfully. With the handicap buffer code this actually becomes more of an issue as it will decrease the difficulty when playing the climbers.

Make them into a real character and get rid of this unDIable infinite as it will be the better choice for all.

Sure Lain, I can see that you want to keep the throw to throw infinite as its all they have, but what if the character had so much more to make them more viable. Would you still support this throw to throw stuff when they have so much more?

 

[iSpiN]

I support what TheCape said. Un DIable CG's is actually against what Brawl+ has been standing for all along. Why should the IC's get special treatment, cause they don't have anything else? They can get buffed in a bunch of other ways if you ppl haven't been listening. Sure it would make them different, but vBrawl =/= Brawl+.

What WE SHOULD BE DOING, is trying to figure out what should be buffed for the IC's.

 

[Ulevo]

Uvelo, if you find infinites fun, that is because you are the one performing them, not the other way around.

The Ice Climbers should not be viable characters simply because of a chain grab, and be useless otherwise. That is why Brawl+ exists. Infinites are not competitive or tournament legal, and they should be removed. Please understand that the Ice Climber's metagame is not tied to chain grabs, it can be changed by buffing other moves extremely easily.

Who are you to decide what is fun and what isn't? I mean, what the hell? I could sit here and tell you how I find myself tripping in to an FSmash from Ike fun, even when I am on the receiving end, and you wouldn't have any say in the matter. Fun is opinion, and it is my opinion, just like it is anyone elses.

Ice Climbers infinites, in vBrawl, are perfectly tournament legal in almost every scene. If you're referring to Brawl Plus, well, you're not making the rules. We haven't even established rules yet. For the record:

"Competition - the activity or condition of competing" ~ Dictionary App

"Non competitive" only means to hinder or lessen the activity of competing. Last time I checked, Ice Climbers infinites didn't prevent you from competing. Especially if you're an average player with a little experience and know how to exploit the obvious flaws of the Ice Climbers.

So the things you say only matter in the current context and when they support your arguements huh? Boozer F smash isnt a one hit kill with DI. Learn to DI Ulevo.

Cape, it was an example. I by no means have any idea if the FSmash does in fact kill characters from a single hit. I haven't gone in to training mode and tested that (although I did use it on Ivysaur, who appeared to die instantly due to his 10% weakness to Fire attacks). I was using the context of other posters. Even if it doesn't in fact KO at 0%, the mere example I provided assuming it does is relevant enough to present the point I was making.

Just want to point out, the Bowser fsmash buff lets him kill at 0% fully charged.

Before you decide to try an humiliate me, make sure you're not being an idiot in the process. And stay on topic, I don't feel like correcting you of all people.

 

[GHNeko]

Quoting from AiB Blog.

anyone who wants this thing out is an idiot. Just because u obviously are so bad at this game that you get grabbed every 10 seconds by characters with horrible grab range and incredibly low punishing options you want it out. You know what I want out of the game iSpiN? Sonic's f smash. I mean its not like its a major part of his game or anything. Hes still got back air >______________>

(As a side note I think that the marth matchup for IC's is actually way worse than metaknight...)

I played brawl + for the first time yesterday, and I tried out my happy little climbers. It was soooo much fun. They have this amazing combo ability and the ability to combo into grabs. Sadly, however, the addition of hitstun makes it a lot easier for nana to become separated and gimped, and harder to save her.

I believe the CGs should stay in because IC's are not ****** everything WITH the cg's right now, and because it is a major part of their metagame which keeps them tourney viable at ALL and because it creates a unique playstyle which furthers the depth to the game.

Just to let u guys know how hard it is for the ICs in brawl, ifrc, if wario f smashes the FRONT of their shield they cannot release it fast enough for them to running grab to get it. IC's also cannot start the infinites from pretty much anywhere 0-20 because nana has to go through the grab animation after popo has started it.

ughhh

 

[Bowser King]

Maybe we should make it that you can't grab someone in hitstun and remove all CGs in B+.. idea?

that is one of the worst ideas ever thought of

I'm sorry but how?

Most CG's have already been removed. Which ones are left?
The only one I can think of is IC's chaingrab (?).

What makes IC's so different from D3, yoshi, falco (?) and others.

There already decent without the chaingrab.

-Bowser King

 

[Ulevo]

I'm sorry but how?

Most CG's have already been removed. Which ones are left?
The only one I can think of is IC's chaingrab (?).

What makes IC's so different from D3, yoshi, falco (?) and others.

There already decent without the chaingrab.

-Bowser King

We're aiming to make the whole roster as balanced as possible, and right now being "decent" doesn't really cut it. If they're currently not competing well, and they'll only be proven worse without a main aspect to their game (which any character would suffer from), we should be focusing on what to add, not what to remove.

 

[Bowser King]

We're aiming to make the whole roster as balanced as possible, and right now being "decent" doesn't really cut it. If they're currently not competing well, and they'll only be proven worse without a main aspect to their game (which any character would suffer from), we should be focusing on what to add, not what to remove.

Exactly.

We should be focusing on what we should add to the IC's so the can compete without there CG. CG's were one of the biggest problems that brawl+ tackled. Even if it meant taking it away from already bad chars at the time (Yoshi is a good example of that).

Why should the IC's have special treatment over chars like yoshi?

-Bowser King

 

[CountKaiser]

Good of Fiction to insult us like that.

Anyway, the IC are getting buffs regardless, so the main arguement here is will they be able to keep the infinite after they get the buffs.

Fiction also made it pretty clear that the infinite is something IC mains rely on, enough so that it is significant. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such a big fuss about removing it.

Once they become a viable character without the infinite, we can remove said infinite.

 

[Shell]

Quoting from AiB Blog.

Originally Posted by FICTION
anyone who wants this thing out is an idiot. Just because u obviously are so bad at this game that you get grabbed every 10 seconds by characters with horrible grab range and incredibly low punishing options you want it out. You know what I want out of the game iSpiN? Sonic's f smash. I mean its not like its a major part of his game or anything. Hes still got back air >______________>

(As a side note I think that the marth matchup for IC's is actually way worse than metaknight...)

I played brawl + for the first time yesterday, and I tried out my happy little climbers. It was soooo much fun. They have this amazing combo ability and the ability to combo into grabs. Sadly, however, the addition of hitstun makes it a lot easier for nana to become separated and gimped, and harder to save her.

I believe the CGs should stay in because IC's are not ****** everything WITH the cg's right now, and because it is a major part of their metagame which keeps them tourney viable at ALL and because it creates a unique playstyle which furthers the depth to the game.

Just to let u guys know how hard it is for the ICs in brawl, ifrc, if wario f smashes the FRONT of their shield they cannot release it fast enough for them to running grab to get it. IC's also cannot start the infinites from pretty much anywhere 0-20 because nana has to go through the grab animation after popo has started it.

ughhh

FICTION seems to be completely ignoring the fact that we could and would give the IC a slew of other good options, the sum of which would likely be far greater than one good trick.

A more appropriate Sonic analogy would be:

We remove his f-smash but decrease the send-off angle and startup of the d-smash, increase f-tilt's KB, and make b-throw kill, while leaving bair intact.

 

[CT Chia]

I hate when I have to make a giant post... It's like work lol

\/ My replied in red

People feel the need to remove this tactic because it is regarded as an "infinite", and that is all that matters to them. I will for the sake of proper discussion ignore my disrespect to those with said train of thought and focus on what is actually important.

First of all, lets look at the fact. What infinites have we removed?

1: King Dedede's standing CG on six characters; Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and King Dedede on a ledge.

2: Grab Release infinites, such as Marth on Ness, Yoshi on Wario, et cetera.

3: Wall infinites, such as King Dedede's CG.

Some major differences between these examples in which were removed, and the IC "infinites" some are proposing to get rid of:

1: Nana/Popo/CPU must be alive.

2: Nana/Popo/CPU must be near Popo when the grab is initiated.

Unlike King Dedede, or other said characters, IC have requirements other than simply grabbing the opponent in order to have the "infinites" start, let alone work. This also means there are a multitude of exploiting options to prevent these requirements from being met, and thus avoiding the "infinite" from taking place.

Also, I'd like to outline that the IC also have significantly inferior grab range to many of the other characters who hold an infinite on another character. Characters like Marth, Charizard, Yoshi, and especially King Dedede far exceed the grab range and grab game of the IC. This also holds weight in the differences between the IC and other characters with potential "infinites".


Now, what are the reasons for removing the other infinites? Obviously it isn't because "infinites are gay". We would be stupid to assume this, right? So what are the reasons?

1: They distort character match ups, and even to the point of potentially threatening the viability of characters in a tournament setting.

2: They limit the options for viable stages.

Fair enough reasons right? I think so. Now, lets look at some other facts.

Ice Climbers never presented the problem of limiting stages with their "infinites", since they can be used basically anywhere. So the main issue was the problems presented with specific character match ups; specifically characters who couldn't effectively defeat or combat their shield game. Lets look at some of their best match ups:

King Dedede
Falco
Fox

Just to name a few. I am by no means an IC expert, but I do know that these three character struggle immensely against the IC. Now, the reason for the inclined match up against these characters is simple: they have no need to approach, and the opponent has no viable approach tactic. Why do they have no viable approach tactic? The shield is too powerful. IC out camp all three of these characters with Ice Blocks, and when they close the distance, they have no effective spacing tool that is either fast enough or long enough of reach for them to be safe at a close quarters to avoid being grabbed. All the IC is required to do is camp with Blizzard, and shield attacks when the opponent takes a risk (which has to be done in order to actually win).

Now you said you're no ICs expert, and neither am I, but I know is false here is that you said these opponents lack no approach. Falco and Fox lasers and shines? Really? They are more mobile in running speed and their illusions as well. Not saying it's not in ICs favor (I don't know if it is), but the reasons you gave are false, except for DDD.

Characters who do well against the IC usually tend to be fast characters with effective spacing tools, and the means to avoid being out camped. Some examples:

Meta Knight
Marth

Meta Knight is by far the worst fear of an IC main, and Marth is likely the second best bet. I've mained both characters extensively, and know they do really well in this match up. The reason is because (excluding the fact that they can avoid camping from afar) they have fast tools in close quarters that keep them safe from the shields that are so powerful, and can shield pressure effectively.

This isn't always the case. ICs generally consider ROB a bad matchup and he does not fit your description. His reason is for a fast downsmash that essentially splits Popo and Nana easily. ROB however can be outcamped and outspaced by good desyncing.

Ice Climbers, currently, are not dominating vBrawl, despite them having an "infinite" on every character. They sit on the bottom of C Tier on the SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0, and are ranked 10th currently in Ankokus Character Rankings List. This clearly outlines that not only are they not a threat to the meta game, but they are not even a dominating force, despite the tactics available to them.

As much as you can't rely on theory, think about it, you said it yourself - they have an infinite on every character. I don't know why more people don't use them. And bringing up Ankokous list does nothing for this. That's practically just data for a popularity contest.

"But this isn't vBrawl Ulevo, this is Brawl Plus" you say. Well correct you are! So what are the outlining differences here? Well, lets look at some of the reasons why the Ice Climbers CG's were arguably effective in vBrawl.

- Low shield stun, allowing for power shield grabs
- Low shield push back, allowing for dash grabs after a quick shield drop
- No methods to reduce attack lag, allowing for opportunities to grab from approaching opponents

As you can clearly see, with vBrawls mechanics, this can be quite troublesome. However, all of these problems are no longer a factor in Brawl Plus. Shield stun is increased, meaning Ice Climbers can no longer grab properly spaced or shuffled attacks. There shields push them back farther than before, meaning their abysmal grab range out of a dash and dash speed is even less useful. Lets also not forget that characters now have on the majority 50% less lag on aerial attacks than before, and have higher gravity and faster dash speed, increasing the mobility (and maneuverability) of almost every character.

Read on later for my quote of Kupo's post.

Essentially what I am outlining is that Ice Climbers are clearly better in vanilla Brawl than they are in Brawl Plus, and yet they are barely in the C Tier status in vBrawl. They are significantly worse in Brawl Plus (in their grab game, and in other areas as well), and yet this has yet to be considered by many players. Despite this, players are prompting the choice to be made to remove the infinite when this would clearly make them worse than they clearly are, and are suggesting to provide buffs in other areas to substitute in which we wouldn't even have any idea as to how well they provide for the character.

This is not true. There have been no main tourneys for Brawl+ yet, and it's been said that there have barely been any real ICs playing Brawl+ yet. I'm still waiting for Bnzaaa (a vBrawl ICs main from my crew that got some hands on time with Brawl+ recently and has some interesting thoughts on the topic) to reply here with his thoughts.

Or if you want the short form, removing the infinite is competitively pointless at this time, and will only serve to hurt the character. For those of you wanting to get rid of the tactic for the IC because it is "gay", I strongly suggest you reevaluate your entire reasoning on this, as it has yet to come to fruition as to why this should be done in any logical manner at all.

If we just remove the infinite, yes, it hurts them. That is however not what anti-infinite people are proposing. We are proposing to remove the infinite and buff them in other areas, making them better than they originally were.

Don't get grabbed.

The problem with the throw to throw thing is that it is an infinite you cant get out of.

Everyone hated DDD CG against a wall, but they dont hate this?

Its an infinite you cant get out of, but just because its a bit harder to learn you think it should stay in?

Most "infinites" or inescapable combos are dependent on the opponent's DI and the executor's ability to continuously read this DI and follow up skillfully. Once the IC's infinite starts, the opponent loses 100% control of their character. They might as well put their controller on the floor, as it would have no change on the situation.

Why are we removing some infinites but not others? We removed DDD's stuff (including a CG that was not an infinite that made him good) and he got much worse. Guess what though, we discussed the character, and found other ways to make him better again. Are people happy with the results? Seems so. ICs should not be any different.

Why remove an aspect of a character if there is nothing wrong with it, Chibo? Especially when it pertains to the unique traits of a character in which we are trying to preserve?

You said it yourself-- they're not broken, and they're not dominating. And anyone can plainly see they have, along with their "infinites", become worse and less useful in Brawl Plus. There is no reason to change them.

Tell me, Chibo. Why should we remove the infinites? If they are not broken, if they are not dominating, if they are currently worse than what they once were, and the technique is unique to the Ice Climbers, why are we motioning to remove this?

I'm still waiting for an answer.

Please listen to goodolganon and don't attack me, but rather what I post. I don't owe you an explanation, especially when your taking what I say out of context. You said that I said it myself, they aren't broken nor dominating. I did not say it. I said that is the reason it is not banned in vBrawl. Did I say that's my thoughts on why it isn't banned. I am against the infinite in vBrawl as well. I'll say that the ICs aren't dominating, because, well... the data is there. They aren't. However, I do find that one grab leading to death where the opponent loses all control of their character to be broken, and you can quote me on that.

\/ Replied in red

1) How is it easier to CG? Their main tool to land a grab, their shield, is significantly nerfed. It no longer can instantly grab characters after an attack has hit the shield, they get pushed back farther, characters have less lag then before to avoid shield grabs, not to mention many characters are being improved.

He said it's easier to CG, not start a CG.

2) Assuming it is easier to CG (which it isn't), how would this make any difference? The ease of use of a technique does not translate in to how useful or powerful it is. If it is powerful enough to dominate (which the infinites are not), someone somewhere will learn the technique barring in mind it is humanly possible.

You're saying the process of CG'ing is harder. While in some ways it probably is in theory, your trying to state a fact that has not been tested and proven. You said yourself that you are not an IC's expert (which I quoted earlier) and it's been said that there aren't many ICs mains playng Brawl+ right now so we have little data on how they are in this game.

And in the case of those many people, they're all wrong.

Non competitive, or rather, the lack of being competitive or something that prevents or hampers that of competitive play is something that prevents competition from thriving. If there is one particular strategy or one particular character that is so dominating to the point where any and all other strategies or characters are void; that promotes lack of competition. We're not talking about a dominating character, or even a dominating tactic. Hell, the technique doesn't even make characters have distorted match ups anymore, barring potentially a few less then adequate (and soon to be altered) characters.

I would say that this tactic does promote the lack of competition. A single grab at any percent can lead to death. I just don't understand why we have removed similar problems in this game but won't for the ICs. Wario was an amazing character in vBrawl, possibly top tier according to some people, however he got ***** by grab release. We removed grab releases. Why? Clearly it wasn't broken if Wario wasn't completely dominating vBrawl and the official tier list but we catered to it anyway. How is this different?

While the term competitive can be different according to various people, I think we are all on the same page about what we are trying to change from vBrawl to Brawl+.

Watch this video of a recent tourney match in vBrawl, Lain (one of the best ICs) vs Anther (The best Pika)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YGKHFjXPis

Whenever Nana was alive all Anther could do was resort to ledge camping and camping on the moving platform firing away thundershocks and then capitalizing on any of Lain's mistakes. Many would deem this as what we are trying to stay away from in Brawl+. Everyone hated the campy gameplay and we wanted to make a faster more exciting game that many would also call more competitive. And what happened right when Nana died and the ICs could no longer CG? Anther threw himself into the action and was attacking and being offensive since he no longer had to worry about dying from a single grab. With the buffs the Cape mentioned with taking away the CG, we avoid this mind numbing campy gameplay seen whenever Popo and Nana was alive, and we also give SoPo a better fighting chance than he had in vBrawl when he was left all alone.

You can be competitive in anything provided there is the means to be competitive.

Sorry I forgot to post the results from the Rock Paper Scissors side event at CoT4.

If I use x attack with y character in z scenario, and I follow your DI correctly, you also can't get out of it. You're not even considering the difficulty in actually landing the grab against an equally skilled opponent. This isn't a reason.

This certainly is a reason. The opponent is able to switch up his DI and use mindgames to keep his opponent on his feet having to continually read his DI and follow up correctly, which takes skill. Also, for DI based combos, they normally stop at high percents with good DI making them not an "infinite."

This is completely up to the discretion of the IC player, and the technique by no means dictates how the IC are played or even used. I've played Ambrose often, and I can assure you that he doesn't do "nothing but get that grab before someone kills the cpu". It isn't that simplistic. Again, even assuming this were true, which it isn't, it's a ridiculous reason.



What an ignorant statement. First off, this is a balancing thread specifically to alter the IC to make them a character set in the appropriate place in the echelon to compete equally (or as close to) with every other character. If they have a problem with being too powerful, or if they present problematic match ups for certain characters, that also needs to be addressed. Hence why the infinite is even a topic of concern. It's not because everyone doesn't know what IC do except grab.

Also, I'd like to point out that very few of the people who have even posted in this topic have even used IC extensively, let alone main the character.



Sure?



Why is this a reason? In order to tweak or fiddle with a character, we must have a purpose in doing so, otherwise we risk the balance of that character. Playing God for the sake of playing God is not a reason.



They're not dependent on one strategy, and you stating as such displays how ignorant you are to the character. Players like Ambrose and Lain happen to face other equally skilled players such as King Ace and Anther on a regular basis, and still place or even beat these players. I assure you that Anther and King Ace, along with these other highly skilled players do not get grabbed often in a match, and that Ambrose or Lain (along with any other skilled IC main) will ever depend on a grab to win a match.

If ICs don't depend on infinites to win or be good, then removing it shouldn't change much, contradicting what you said earlier.


I am not only arguing for the fact that we have no need to change the IC infinites for the sake that they do not posses a problem for the meta game in Brawl Plus, but that they shouldn't be changed because it isn't simply something that should be dismissed as sloppy programming. That can be argued as well, and I feel no need to get in to it, as it's irrelevant anyway.

There is little to no metagame currently in Brawl+. You can't make statements like that.

And Jiang, I do not care about your faith in my opinion. As long as what my words say make logical and concise sense, and yours don't, I'm perfectly fine with your faith or lack thereof.

I just want to point out that in brawl+ where we have hitstun and ALR and a wide variety of options over vbrawl, the IC's should have an easier time landing the grab because they have better setups for grabs due to these functioning game mechanics that wasn't present before. It is extremely hard to grab in vbrawl because the game offered little to no help in any respect which includes grabbing. This means that they can behave as a normal character using their full moveset to set up for a grab much easier and earlier than they could before. So I don't see how "getting the grab" being hard applies anymore

While it may not be true that it's easier to land a grab in Brawl+ (it may or may not, none of us are completely sure yet), Kupo brings up some very interesting points here. We just can't rely on the same methods to get a grab in Brawl+ that we relied on in vBrawl. In Brawl+ we can now combo into grab, which I have seen happen playing against ICs in the game. You couldn't do it in vBrawl but you can in Brawl+. This is why arguments like this is Brawl+ not vBrawl matter. You can't always compare the two games directly.

I support what TheCape said. Un DIable CG's is actually against what Brawl+ has been standing for all along. Why should the IC's get special treatment, cause they don't have anything else? They can get buffed in a bunch of other ways if you ppl haven't been listening. Sure it would make them different, but vBrawl =/= Brawl+.

What WE SHOULD BE DOING, is trying to figure out what should be buffed for the IC's.

This is a good summation of most things I've touched on in this post and whats been said by the anti-infinite players throughout this thread.

 

[JustNoOne]

So if you're going to take out CGs, it's there something that Brawl+ can make so that you can't grab a person in a certain animation?

To clear my explaination up, it's like the super armor frames for grabs, you can grab them, but you won't be able to actually hold them and do a CG but they can still attack and air dodge whatnot. So after a grab by a climber, the other climber cannot regrab them, but can do other attacks to them. Does Brawl+ has something like that 0.0

 

[CloneHat]

Ice Climbers infinites, in vBrawl, are perfectly tournament legal in almost every scene. If you're referring to Brawl Plus, well, you're not making the rules. We haven't even established rules yet. For the record:

"Competition - the activity or condition of competing" ~ Dictionary App

"Non competitive" only means to hinder or lessen the activity of competing. Last time I checked, Ice Climbers infinites didn't prevent you from competing. Especially if you're an average player with a little experience and know how to exploit the obvious flaws of the Ice Climbers.

An infinite, capable of continuing an infinite amount of time, prevents one player from competing for an infinite period of time, or until 8 minutes is up.

 

[MK26]

First of all, I'd like to say that it seems like most people here are in favour of getting rid of the infinite, but how would we go about doing so? Preventing Nana from being able to grab x amount of frames after Popo throws? Can a coder tell me a possible way to play with the move IDs to remove the infinite?

Why should a character with no grab range, running speed, priority, and bad horizontal air mobility have the one thing banned that makes them NOT broken, but redeems them and makes them good?

IC infinite is based on so many variables too. Where you are, where Nana is, how heavy the character is, how well you can actually perform the infinite (trust me folks, it's not "hard" to do per-se, but to do it consistently is a whole other story, and I'm pretty much the only guy (besides prolly like Ambrose and Meep) who can do it with near 100% consistency). Oh and you have double the chance to trip and thus **** up the cg.

Also, people camp me megahard. Which means they're spacing well and sometimes platform camping, thus making it an absolute nightmare to get a grab.

I understand where you're coming from, but I get the feeling that you havent been following the B+ project. First of all we've removed tripping, so that argument doesnt really apply here. Second, you're assuming that we won't do anything to the ICs after we remove the infinite. We can do almost anything, with only a few exceptions, with all the codes we have - especially since we broke the 256-line limit. We can change the properties of every attack, everything from speed to damage to element. We can increase the ICs' dash speed. We can make their other moves combo, both into and out of throws (helped a lot by the hitstun increase). We can make them a fastfaller if that tickles your fancy.

Don't think that we're just getting rid of the infinite because we don't like it. We're getting rid of it to make the ICs a character that doesn't revolve around getting a grab. We can buff whatever we think should be buffed, and that's where you IC mains come in: tell us what you want us to do to make the Climbers a balanced character sans infinite, and we'll run with it.

*Note: this is more of a general statement to all Brawl Ice Climber mains than a response to any specific one, and is much less a response to any specific poster above me*

 

[Deleted member]

I will admit that taking control away from an opposing player entirely, regardless of other circumstances, for a prolong period of time is stalling. And in theory, this could present a problem because the IC can continue the infinite to run out the timer.

That's what stalling rules are for.

I just want to point out that in brawl+ where we have hitstun and ALR and a wide variety of options over vbrawl, the IC's should have an easier time landing the grab because they have better setups for grabs due to these functioning game mechanics that wasn't present before. It is extremely hard to grab in vbrawl because the game offered little to no help in any respect which includes grabbing. This means that they can behave as a normal character using their full moveset to set up for a grab much easier and earlier than they could before. So I don't see how "getting the grab" being hard applies anymore

So now they can go for a grab offensively instead of defensively? It's not like they have a very good offense.

 

[Ulevo]

I hate when I have to make a giant post... It's like work lol

Chibo, I hate you right now. I have no way of effectively quoting any of that. Why would you do that? Why I say?!

Anyway, I'm going to respond to your posts in order of sequence. I am not going to attempt to multi quote you.

1: Falco and Fox can't approach with lasers. Falco gets out camped when the Ice Blocks are desynched because Falco can't short hop properly this way, and Falco will receive more damage overall than the who characters will from a single laser. Fox is even in a worse circumstance, since his lasers don't stop the Ice Block spam at all. The shine is also useless. Falcos has terrible lag and is suicide to use, and Fox's needs to be used in close quarters, which will also get him grabbed.

Falcos main saving grace is the Phantasm, since it has such low lag at the end and is hard to stop. However, Blizzard stops this. Fox is... screwed. His Illusion isn't nearly as good, and has lag on the end of it even if short hopped.

2: Chibo, you're the ROB expert here, so I'll assume you know more than I do. But I do know that ROB has longer reach than both Meta Knight and Marth on his attacks. Fair, Ftilt, Standard A and Dtilt all have very long reach and are very fast attacks. Also, there is the fact that he has a projectile game and can out camp the Ice Climbers. But yes, ROB could very well have the advantage too.

3: More people don't use the IC because they are hard to learn as a character, and even when mastered are less effective than the alternatives. They just don't compare to the other high or top tiers, even with an infinite on everyone. It's that simple.

4: I'm aware that there is no tournament results or data to suggest the IC are better or worse in Brawl Plus. However I am basing this argument strictly on fact of what made them so good in vBrawl. There shields were powerful and characters had little ways to stop them from landing a grab. This isn't the case anymore, so logically one would assume they are in fact worse, at least where the infinite is concerned. There are other reasons why the character as a whole is logically worse, but that would be a long post that should be common sense anyway, and I won't bother with.

5: Chibo, then we're just removing things for the sake of removing things, and that is not an effective way to go about balancing and altering a game. We might as well be basing decisions on the fun factor, and we all know how that goes. Why don't we take Falcons Knee away and just speed up his Falcon Punch? It's pointless suggestions with no merit or reason like this that lead our goals for the project off track without proper direction.

6: Combos are reliant on the ability to read the opponents DI. The Ice Climbers infinites do not need to have a player read DI, you're correct. But the set up to actually allow the infinite to take place is significantly more. They need to be at at least a specific percent for it to work, and the CPU needs to be alive and near by. The fact that you have no control over the character when the infinite is started does not change the fact that the infinite is easily avoided.

7: Chibo, I already stated why we're removing the previous infinites and not others. I made a huge **** post about it. If you didn't read it, I'm not repeating myself. The Ice Climbers infinites and the other infinites are not the same, and I've clearly stated how and why.

8: I wasn't considering your context Chibo, I was using your statement as a generally accepted rule, which it is. IC are not dominating in vBrawl. Maybe you stated so, maybe you didn't, but I was never trying to point out what you said personally.

9: You're right Chibo, whether or not the IC CGs are harder or easier to effectively use is nothing but theory at this point to the community at large. I am basing my statements of simple facts I know from having extensive experience against the character (and what little experience I have using the character), and applying their abilities to the changes made in Brawl Plus which would directly effect the technique we're all discussing. That being said, I could very well be wrong.

However, if this should be the case, then why are we discussing on the removal of a technique when we don't even have data to suggest that it needs to be changed? If you want something to be altered or modified, you provide reason as to why it should be altered or modified, not why it shouldn't be. This is how it is conducted in the WBR, and how it should be for the whole project. Without sufficient data to suggest why it should be changed, we shouldn't even be discussing this, and yet here we are.

10: Chibo, in the example you provided me for Wario vs Grab Releases, I can't argue that because I was not the one who made this decision to remove them, nor was I around to influence that decision or give my input. I realize what you say in this example has merit, however I do not have the grounds to argue it.

For the record however, Grab Releases did work on any percent because of the nature on how they worked. The IC infinites don't. I've been able to escape the CG's from as high at 40% while fighting Ambrose even when the CPU was right next to Popo, and he didn't mess up.

11: Chibo, you forget the fact that the main reason (logically assuming) that Anther is forced to resort to such tactics is because he can't safely attack the IC because the shield will prevent any attempts of this working and simply shield grab him. This doesn't work anymore, and therefor players won't have to resort to campy game plan only in order to win.

12: You missed the entire point I was trying to make. Combos take skill to read, blah blah blah. The infinite takes skill to set up and land a grab, blah blah blah. I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

13: Chibo, if you remove any redeeming quality from any character, it will change that character in a negative way. If you take Falcons Knee away, even if he doesn't rely on it to win, he will become worse. If you take Meta Knights Tornado away, even if he doesn't rely on it to win, he will become worse. The CG's for the IC are no different, and I am no way contradicting myself. They don't rely on it to win, and they can win without it, but they are clearly worse as a character without it.

14: Maybe I can't. You're right in assuming that I have no way of effectively knowing if the infinites will possess a problem in Brawl Plus, even if logically speaking they should be worse in theory now. But there is a flip side to this coin, and you can't assume they will be worse, or even problematic in Brawl Plus without sufficient meta game data either. This isn't a one way street.

An infinite, capable of continuing an infinite amount of time, prevents one player from competing for an infinite period of time, or until 8 minutes is up.

And Jigglypuff floating below the stage with Pound is no different. This is in fact worse. This is why we have judges.