What we don't want, and what Ulevo wants, is an infinite that is completely dependent on the attacker's skill and nothing else.
It is both the IC main and the opponents responsibility to determine what the outcome is in a match, even with regards to the infinite being used. There are requirements, I've outlined them. It isn't one players discretion that decides whether or not the infinite works, or if it ultimately leads to win the match.
We don't want the unDIable infinite, as it doesn't give the defender any chance of defending himself from it.
You defend yourself by preventing the grab. Plain and simple. Jigglypuff can currently kill almost any character from a varying 0 - 40% in this game right now, and the only way to prevent that from occuring is to avoid Rest. I am capable, along with any other play, to mash out at around the same percent range to avoid an infinite, which ultimately leads to the same out come. How do you avoid this? You avoid the grab.
Once you're caught in a tactic or strategy, you're screwed almost 90% of the time in any fighter, including Smash. You need to prevent yourself from being caught in those techniques, strats and combos, not whine about how you can't escape them once you're caught.
Any other 0-death combo is due to reading of DI and prediction. The infinite is due to being able to pull it off. The fact that the defender has no chance of getting out of it is ridiculous.
The CG isn't 0% to death. You can mash out at lower percents as I have already stated. You act as if DI is hard to read, and that most of the time you'll be safe from harm in a combo. You won't. And most combos don't kill you, they merely add %, but they are significantly easier to set up in most circumstances in comparison to the CGs. You're pretending as if this is a tactic without flaw that is overwhelming. If it were, it would have been proven so in the previous two games, Brawl and Melee, and it has yet to be.
Also, I've tested it, and Bowser's buffed Fsmash, fully charged, kills mario from the middle of FD at 15% or so, thus the arguement of Bowser's fsmash isn't a good one.
The point was never about whether or not the FSmash actually does kill 100% guaranteed. Like I said, I took the context from another poster. The point was that if a move automatically kills you, it does not inherently make it broken. It is the process of set up and execution that determines how useful, and thus how powerful the technique is.
Anyway, in response to nobody in particular, the point I want to make is:
Why have a character that is useless they land a grab, and when they land a grab, it causes the other player to have completely no input over what happens to their character.
This is just bad game design, we should turn the Ice Climbers into an actual character that doesn't rely on one attack. The grab does not even make them high on the tier list! They need to be fixed.
They are no useless unless a grab is landed. They have desynch strategies and techniques, along with a solid projectile, decent recovery, massive damage out put, and a few other redeeming qualities. They are just not up to par (presumably) with other characters who are likely sitting in high tier right now. Removing the infinite will only serve to hurt the character, and removing it with substitutes for other buffs is... meaningless. You're doing it only because you want to. There's no other competitive explanation for why it actually needs to happen.
You claim the infinite is bad design, when really the infinite does nothing to harm the competition of the game, which is the only thing we should be concerned about in this topic. Characters have no issues dealing with the IC, and with a few alterations I am sure the IC could deal with other higher placed characters as well.
Oh god, are you guys actually arguing that those rediclous stalling rules, and forcing judges to decide the outcomes are actually good for a tournament? Why would we keep the most vague and unenforceable rules in the ruleset if we don't have to?
A goal of B+ should be to remove the need for judges altogether.
I never stated needed a judge to make decisions on a match was ever a good thing. But the bottom line is that unless we make severe alterations to this game, we will need judges to make decisions like this should they arise. We can remove obvious and common occurrences like planking, but to remove stalls under stages and other such problems would involve either changing a lot of characters quite severely or completely altering stages to be nothing of their original design.
Removing a defining aspect of a character for the sake of keeping the judges happy when this is almost never (if it has ever been) an occurrence in a tournament setting is not something we should do when the characters are at the heart of this game.
And if need be, we can place a code to ensure the CG only works until x percent.
Dedede's infinite on those characters required them to be above a certain percentage and have his down+throw not be too staled out for it to be continued as an infinite. In this way, Dedede's infinite on those characters should be brought back simply because of its requirements. I do not think it should be and I don't think we should make an exception which would leave in something with bad game design to brawl+ just because it was useful for the character in vBrawl.
You are correct in stating that Dedede did have these requirements, but the requirements for this to occur are minimal in comparison to what the IC need in order to accomplish the tactic. Let alone the fact King Dedede was a significantly better character overall without the infinite.
Stop putting infinites in quotes. Ice Climber's alternating grabs are a true infinite and there is no denying it. Considering the Smash Bros gameplay infinites will always be bad game design unless they can only go in one direction and do not work against walls which one could argue that this wouldnt be an infinite, but if it was on a homerun contest stage it would be able to be continued forever thus the title would be rightfully made. But the Ice Climber infinite isn't like this, you can move them back and forth across the field. It is terrible design for the game even if it was good and wasn't broken in vBrawl it is still something we should look to replace in brawl+.
If it isn't broken, doesn't distort match ups between characters, and doesn't negatively effect the character using the tactic, why do we need to remove it? You're claiming it is bad design as if it means something, meanwhile you can't justify this fact for any of these qualities that could threaten the game competitively. If the IC didn't have requirements to achieve this technique, requirements that are hard to set up and are easy to exploit, this might arguable.
Infinites are bad design in a smash game except for in the one example I described when it could be okay. But the Ice Climbers infinite does not fall under this category and leaves no reason for the opponent to even attempt to escape. It is a horrible in terms of game design and should not be allowed to stay in Brawl+.
Nice statement. Nice, vague statement.
By the way, flying is a bad game design. In a game where you're supposed to win by knocking the opponent off stage, flying is poor design for a character. It doesn't matter if the characters who can fly aren't broken, or if they don't make inclined match ups for those characters, it's still poor design. Lets remove it, because its bad design.
Please make justifications that makes sense Giza.
Just because they are not dominating does not mean the infinite is terrible game design.
Yes it does. If it needed fixing, it would clearly prove so.
Nor does it mean that the concept is no fundamentally broken.
Do you even know what the term broken is? Throwing the word fundamentally before it doesn't change the meaning. Broken is used to describe overpowered,
centralizing tactics that make all other strategies, characters, techniques, stages, (or very, very few of them) obsolete and pointless competitively. If I gave Ike 0 start up and recovery time on his FSmash and made it kill at 0%, making him the only character to realistically win a tournament, that would be broken.
A CG infinite that requires strict set up prerequisites that ****s you over because you weren't paying attention in a match that clearly doesn't over centralize isn't broken.
You are approaching this discussion as if we are talking about allowing it at a tournament. If that was the case I would agree with you that it should be allowed. But that's not what we are discussing. We are talking about fixing a game, making it better, redesigning aspects that need to be fixed.
Yeah, I'm still waiting on a justification on why the infinites need to be "fixed". And by fixed, you mean removed. They do nothing to harm the competitive aspects of this game except for theoretically stalling a match, meanwhile we have the means to prevent that at higher percents without out right removing the technique. All based on what the IC "should be like".
Since the alternating throws are bad game design at their core they should be removed and replaced with tactics that have very similar effects without all the issues that are tied into the infinites. We have the ability to make this work.
There you go again throwing around "bad game design". Tripping is bad game design.
This isn't vBrawl. This is Brawl+, and we are its designers. We have the ability to fix the broken aspects of the game and replace them with tactics that will act very similarly but without all the little problems.
What IC are we talking about here? I wasn't aware there was a broken version of the IC in Brawl Plus. I thought they just had an CG infinite.
Yes, Ice Climbers need work but letting them have a crutch in bad game design is not how we should go about it.
A crutch? It's a **** technique. It's part of their gameplay, and does nothing but benefit them.
There ability to get the infinite in has been nerfed but that doesn't mean the infinite itself is no longer a case of fundamental failure in terms of game design.
Which you have yet to elaborate on.
Do you think it would be impossible to fix the ice climbers while retaining many of their defining strength, weaknesses, and unique qualities if the alternate throw infinite was gone?
No. I believe we can recreate, alter, and change any character in any fashion we see fit.
That doesn't mean we should. Sadly enough, people are discussing things like giving Toon Link ice attribute arrows. For no competitive reason. We can do it. We can change anything (well, to an extent). But if you want a good, solid competitive game that is balanced and well made, you need to make decisions based on logic, not "oh I think this character should play this way because of this reason" or "I don't like this, lets change it".
But this wasn't the reasoning for what most people were posting. Alternate grab infinites are bad design, I don't mind them having 0% to death chainthrows as long as they don't have the terrible design alt grabs did. We have the ability to give them that, and help their desyncing game flow into this better.
First off, they're not 0% to death. They're merely "infinite", which I put in quotes because it merely lasts for 8 minutes at most in theory (but whatever, that's irrelevant).
So, let me ask you something. Why are you suggesting to alter these grabs if you do not mind them having a 0% to death grab combo/technique if the only difference between what you could be proposing is what we have now, which has only one underlying difference being stalling, when we can simply prevent the infinite from occurring at a certain percent cap?
I am not trying to insult or offense, but almost all of these points being brought up in this entire thread have been nothing but personal whim on what they would
prefer to have IC play as, meanwhile doing nothing to think about how it is they play competitively. This isn't rocket science. If they have a broken tactic, we fix it. If they pose 7-3 ratio match ups or worse against specific characters, we fix it. If the technique makes them worse as a character, we fix it. If it centralizes the game, or makes other strategies/characters/maps obsolete, we fix it.
The infinite does none of this. And yet a change is in order? This defies how we should be going about reconstructing this game, and it seriously makes me reconsider even being a part of this. It is sad to believe that the game can be altered or change "just because I feel like it" with no competitive sense or reason that makes actual sense.
