Brawl+ Character Balance : Character 6: ICE CLIMBERS (LAST THOUGHTS)

[iSpiN]

Well I can't argue personal preference. I just think it would be a good idea to try out buffs that don't involve making their infinites/cg's easier so that if the time come and it turns out they are not viable without them, we just turn them back on.

What? Then ppl would suck just to have it back.

 

[Teronist09]

What? Then ppl would suck just to have it back.

lol. Well I didn't really take that into account, but if people did that they deserve to have them gone forever.

 

[Team Giza]

You are correct in stating that Dedede did have these requirements, but the requirements for this to occur are minimal in comparison to what the IC need in order to accomplish the tactic. Let alone the fact King Dedede was a significantly better character overall without the infinite.

So why not remove the infinite and improve the other unique properties the ice climbers have? We can do it and still make them remain the best chainthrowers in the game.

If it isn't broken, doesn't distort match ups between characters, and doesn't negatively effect the character using the tactic, why do we need to remove it?

I do think having a one trick character like ice climbers lead to very distorted match ups, as well as very repetitive scenarios. This is because the whole match is gonna be based around this. Explain in more detail what you mean by distorted match ups if I am not understanding correctly. Also, I do not agree that this tactic isn't broken but I will get into that later.

You're claiming it is bad design as if it means something, meanwhile you can't justify this fact for any of these qualities that could threaten the game competitively.

We aren't just talking about it in a competitive sense but in game design as well. I would highly recommend you read up on some of David Sirlin's articles on game design, especially those in fighting games. You seem to have a good grip some of the ideas of competitive broken, but not game design broken. Being involved in the Brawl+ backroom means we are in a way game designers for brawl+ and we should try to follow some of the aspects to make Brawl+ have good game design. Having a situation were a character gets stuck in something that can go on forever and the opponent might as well just put down their control is broken. It completely makes the point of doing anything after that grab hits for the opponent meaningless, and it lasts until the next stock which doesn't have to start until the opponent decides it should.

If the IC didn't have requirements to achieve this technique, requirements that are hard to set up and are easy to exploit, this might arguable.

And I think we should make the Ice Climbers more than just a one trick character. If we are going to be buffing other aspects of them to make them more unique from other characters by strengthening their desyncs then we run the risk of this alt throw infinite being more common. Which adds to the already bad problem of it creating uneven match ups (which just leads to them being counterpicked against every time), repetitive situations (which make the game less fun in the long term and look less thought out and sloppy), and breaking the opponent's ability to control their character for a possibly unlimited amount of time.

Nice statement. Nice, vague statement.

By the way, flying is a bad game design. In a game where you're supposed to win by knocking the opponent off stage, flying is poor design for a character. It doesn't matter if the characters who can fly aren't broken, or if they don't make inclined match ups for those characters, it's still poor design. Lets remove it, because its bad design.

Please make justifications that makes sense Giza.

There is a major difference. Both players can do stuff when the opponent is flying and you can gimp them if they do it wrong because they put themselves in a very risky situation. Ice Climbers infinite completely shut down the other player and worst of all its the ice climbers only trick. They need a massive overhaul.

Yes it does. If it needed fixing, it would clearly prove so.

I've already gone over how its bad game design. You are misunderstand me it seems. I am not arguing that it is competitively its makes them overpowered. But I am arguing that it makes Brawl+ look very sloppy and makes the characters very boring overall when we can make them better. We can improve some of their unique features, like desyncing, and blend it all in with their grab game to have a very completely and well thought out character.

Do you even know what the term broken is? Throwing the word fundamentally before it doesn't change the meaning. Broken is used to describe overpowered, centralizing tactics that make all other strategies, characters, techniques, stages, (or very, very few of them) obsolete and pointless competitively. If I gave Ike 0 start up and recovery time on his FSmash and made it kill at 0%, making him the only character to realistically win a tournament, that would be broken.

Once again this is competitively broken. I am referring to game design, and when a player's input mean nothing for a period of time that can go on forever if the opponent wishes it to than that is broken. It literally breaks the game for the other player because as long as the Ice Climber player doesnt wish for them to be playing than all of their inputs mean nothing.

A CG infinite that requires strict set up prerequisites that ****s you over because you weren't paying attention in a match that clearly doesn't over centralize isn't broken.

I'm saying its sloppy and broken in game design, not broken in competitive play. I think we should really be trying to surpass brawl in game design.

Yeah, I'm still waiting on a justification on why the infinites need to be "fixed". And by fixed, you mean removed. They do nothing to harm the competitive aspects of this game except for theoretically stalling a match, meanwhile we have the means to prevent that at higher percents without out right removing the technique. All based on what the IC "should be like".

Are you against testing out ideas to make IC be more competitively viable while still retaining their "don't get grabbed" aspects they are known for? I do not understand why you are against attempting to make them better characters. But in order to do this we need to get rid of their infinite because as they will be buffed in other ways their alternating throws will become overpowering as they get stronger in their desync trap aspects.

There you go again throwing around "bad game design". Tripping is bad game design.

Yes, and we removed it. You know what else is bad game design? A tactic that stops someone from being able to control your character for as long as their opponent wishes. You know what we should do? Remove it.

What IC are we talking about here? I wasn't aware there was a broken version of the IC in Brawl Plus. I thought they just had an CG infinite.

I know I made this clear earlier on but just to clarify again. Broken in terms of game design but not necessarily broken competitively just because the rest of the character is so poorly designed.

A crutch? It's a **** technique. It's part of their gameplay, and does nothing but benefit them.

Except of coarse when it gets banned from tournaments in many places like it was been in vbrawl. Then they are left with nothing because all they were relying on was that one single tactic. I've debated with tournament organizers to allow alternating throws at their tournaments before because I don't think it should be removed from a competitive scene of a game. But this is a different situation, we aren't just playing the game. We are making Brawl+ and we should work to make sure that there is nothing in the game that would get banned by many tournament organizers. Since alternate throws have been banned in many areas in vBrawl I think its reasonable to get rid of it, while buffing their desyncing aspects to make it so there is no way for some tournament organizers to destroy their viability.

No. I believe we can recreate, alter, and change any character in any fashion we see fit. That doesn't mean we should. Sadly enough, people are discussing things like giving Toon Link ice attribute arrows. For no competitive reason. We can do it. We can change anything (well, to an extent). But if you want a good, solid competitive game that is balanced and well made, you need to make decisions based on logic, not "oh I think this character should play this way because of this reason" or "I don't like this, lets change it".

I agree but I think there are good reasons for getting rid of these infinites and that is where we differ. One of the major reason to change this is to diversify their gameplay more so that they can have more evened out match ups so they cannot just be easily counter picked by a Marth, Metaknight, or Ganondorf all the the time.

So, let me ask you something. Why are you suggesting to alter these grabs if you do not mind them having a 0% to death grab combo/technique if the only difference between what you could be proposing is what we have now, which has only one underlying difference being stalling, when we can simply prevent the infinite from occurring at a certain percent cap?

I want it to be DIable as well but it doesnt have to be DIable enough so the person and easily get out of situations by doing the same thing every time. it would add diversity to a match and you would have to know different chainthrows to help throw off DI more and know the various ways to punish each direction of DI from each of these. Many of these move changes would also be applicable to their desyncs as well making them have more effective punishes and better ways to get the initial grab. This would make there match ups less counter picked based and make them more viable in tournaments overall as well as have them no longer be shot down to bottom tier in tournaments were the organizer decides to ban the tactic when the character completely relies on it and only it by your own admission.

I am not trying to insult or offense, but almost all of these points being brought up in this entire thread have been nothing but personal whim on what they would prefer to have IC play as, meanwhile doing nothing to think about how it is they play competitively.

Although my main goal overall is to make them more competitively viable while keeping in mind what might happen in certain tournaments.

This isn't rocket science. If they have a broken tactic, we fix it. If they pose 7-3 ratio match ups or worse against specific characters, we fix it. If the technique makes them worse as a character, we fix it. If it centralizes the game, or makes other strategies/characters/maps obsolete, we fix it. The infinite does none of this. And yet a change is in order? This defies how we should be going about reconstructing this game, and it seriously makes me reconsider even being a part of this. It is sad to believe that the game can be altered or change "just because I feel like it" with no competitive sense or reason that makes actual sense.

I disagree with the part in red. I believe the tactic does make other ice climber strategies mean nothing. The alternating throws completely destroy any reason to use any of their other chainthrowing and comboing tactics. It creates very polarized match up tactics that make the whole thing based around simple counter picking. And beyond that it leaves the character more open to various problems further down the line by defending it. If we buff them in other ways too much than we run the risk of them being competitively broken if we leave this in. But if we leave this in a don't buff them we run the risk of there being an extremely safe and spammable technique characters could use against the ice climbers grab game thus completely killing off their viability. Beyond that, we still have the risk of tournament organizers banning such an infinite just like many of them did in vbrawl which, once again, would make Ice Climbers so bad they would be practically unplayable. All because you want the character to have one tactic to rely on as a crutch instead of diversifying their gameplay and making use of their other unique properties.

 

[Ulevo]

Giza, I'm only going to reply to you for the sake of clarification. I'm not going to bother refuting any of your points made because it is mostly just repetitive comments.

I do think having a one trick character like ice climbers lead to very distorted match ups, as well as very repetitive scenarios. This is because the whole match is gonna be based around this. Explain in more detail what you mean by distorted match ups if I am not understanding correctly. Also, I do not agree that this tactic isn't broken but I will get into that later.

By distorted Giza, I am referring to match ups beyond 6:4. 6:4 ratios are generally accepted as match ups of a slight advantage or disadvantage, and in which player skill plays almost a complete role in the out come of the match. Anything beyond 6:4 gets in to character advantage, and presents problems for character balance. An example of this would be Ice Climbers vs Fox in vBrawl.

Therefor, if the CGs present a problem with regards to match ups in which they prove to be too advantageous against other characters, I feel it is a fair reason to alter or remove them.

We aren't just talking about it in a competitive sense but in game design as well. I would highly recommend you read up on some of David Sirlin's articles on game design, especially those in fighting games. You seem to have a good grip some of the ideas of competitive broken, but not game design broken. Being involved in the Brawl+ backroom means we are in a way game designers for brawl+ and we should try to follow some of the aspects to make Brawl+ have good game design. Having a situation were a character gets stuck in something that can go on forever and the opponent might as well just put down their control is broken. It completely makes the point of doing anything after that grab hits for the opponent meaningless, and it lasts until the next stock which doesn't have to start until the opponent decides it should.

Competitive aspects of Brawl Plus come first before game design. Plain and simple. The entire goal of this project is to improve Brawl as a competitive game, not to improve the games design. If you feel that the infinites are bad game design, you're entitled to that thought; its merely a difference of opinion on my end. But the reasonings you give for why it needs to be fixed pertaining to that come second, not first. Competitive aspects are more important. And right now, there is no real competitive justification for removing or altering this technique.

And I think we should make the Ice Climbers more than just a one trick character. If we are going to be buffing other aspects of them to make them more unique from other characters by strengthening their desyncs then we run the risk of this alt throw infinite being more common. Which adds to the already bad problem of it creating uneven match ups (which just leads to them being counterpicked against every time), repetitive situations (which make the game less fun in the long term and look less thought out and sloppy), and breaking the opponent's ability to control their character for a possibly unlimited amount of time.

Before any alterations to this character should be made, it should be established on what exactly it is that needs to be altered to improve this character. IC may not even need to be altered at all. I am arguing to leave a technique alone, not promote a change, so I am not the one in need of justification here. There are too many posters in here making suggestions to a character that quite frankly I doubt have very much experience with or against in a competitive or tournament related atmosphere.

There is a major difference. Both players can do stuff when the opponent is flying and you can gimp them if they do it wrong because they put themselves in a very risky situation. Ice Climbers infinite completely shut down the other player and worst of all its the ice climbers only trick. They need a massive overhaul.

The fact that you actually replied to this with points attempting to contradict its exampled flaws shows me that you really didn't catch the point of the post at all.

I've already gone over how its bad game design. You are misunderstand me it seems. I am not arguing that it is competitively its makes them overpowered. But I am arguing that it makes Brawl+ look very sloppy and makes the characters very boring overall when we can make them better. We can improve some of their unique features, like desyncing, and blend it all in with their grab game to have a very completely and well thought out character.

If you're arguing over things that are "sloppy" or "boring", you're marching in to uncharted territory that is subjective with little guide lines to speak of. If you want to argue about how the infinites are boring, I could sit here all day saying I love them to death and you wouldn't have a counter argument to save your ***.

If you really believe this is a justification to remove them, host a poll, and see what the community believes. Ultimately, if we're making decisions not based on competitive play, it should be decided by the community.

Once again this is competitively broken. I am referring to game design, and when a player's input mean nothing for a period of time that can go on forever if the opponent wishes it to than that is broken. It literally breaks the game for the other player because as long as the Ice Climber player doesnt wish for them to be playing than all of their inputs mean nothing.

The IC main doesn't wish to win and it magically happens, but whatever.

I'm saying its sloppy and broken in game design, not broken in competitive play. I think we should really be trying to surpass brawl in game design.

If you've come to play a better competitive game, you've come to the right part of smashboards.com. If you've come to suprass Sakurai in game design, I suggest you seek out another game.

Are you against testing out ideas to make IC be more competitively viable while still retaining their "don't get grabbed" aspects they are known for? I do not understand why you are against attempting to make them better characters. But in order to do this we need to get rid of their infinite because as they will be buffed in other ways their alternating throws will become overpowering as they get stronger in their desync trap aspects.

I am against unnecessary, unwarranted, and uncertain changes that are of no urgency or immediate attention. We have no idea on how the IC will perform in a tournament, and yet here we are talking about giving them buffs. Few IC mains have even stepped foot in this thread. Give me a solid reason for a change, and I'll gladly accept it.

Yes, and we removed it. You know what else is bad game design? A tactic that stops someone from being able to control your character for as long as their opponent wishes. You know what we should do? Remove it.

Jigglypuff can effectively stall underneath any stage and the opponent has no control over it. I suppose we should remove this too?

Except of coarse when it gets banned from tournaments in many places like it was been in vbrawl. Then they are left with nothing because all they were relying on was that one single tactic.

This is false. Texas is the largest region in the states in which the CGs were limited, and players like Hylian and Melee still placed very well there. Also, the CG hasn't been banned or limited in many places. I know for sure it hasn't in Canada, and aside from Texas and the occasional tournament, I rarely hear mention of the CG even being limited.

I've debated with tournament organizers to allow alternating throws at their tournaments before because I don't think it should be removed from a competitive scene of a game. But this is a different situation, we aren't just playing the game. We are making Brawl+ and we should work to make sure that there is nothing in the game that would get banned by many tournament organizers. Since alternate throws have been banned in many areas in vBrawl I think its reasonable to get rid of it, while buffing their desyncing aspects to make it so there is no way for some tournament organizers to destroy their viability.

I've already made mention on how a tournament rule doesn't "destroy their viability". Also, TO decisions should not shape the way we make our decisions. Very few tournaments limit or ban the infinite, and I see no reason to let the few of them dictate our decisions.

I disagree with the part in red. I believe the tactic does make other ice climber strategies mean nothing. The alternating throws completely destroy any reason to use any of their other chainthrowing and comboing tactics.

Just for clarification, when I made mention of other strategies, combos, techniques, maps being obsolete, I meant in comparison to the Ice Climbers.

It creates very polarized match up tactics that make the whole thing based around simple counter picking.

There is no tournament data to suggest this is true.

And beyond that it leaves the character more open to various problems further down the line by defending it. If we buff them in other ways too much than we run the risk of them being competitively broken if we leave this in. But if we leave this in a don't buff them we run the risk of there being an extremely safe and spammable technique characters could use against the ice climbers grab game thus completely killing off their viability.

And this is why we wait to see how they do in a tournament setting.

Beyond that, we still have the risk of tournament organizers banning such an infinite just like many of them did in vbrawl which, once again, would make Ice Climbers so bad they would be practically unplayable. All because you want the character to have one tactic to rely on as a crutch instead of diversifying their gameplay and making use of their other unique properties.

Any well renown IC main doesn't rely on a single tactic. I've already made mention of this. Nor do these use it as a crutch. TO decisions, as previously mentioned, should not dictate our decisions.

 

[kupo15]

awww you didn't respond to my post.

 

[CountKaiser]

He doesn't feel like arguing anymore.

I can't blame him. It's begun to go in circles.

 

[Deleted member]

How about we leave this until the very end?

 

[Team Giza]

Giza, I'm only going to reply to you for the sake of clarification. I'm not going to bother refuting any of your points made because it is mostly just repetitive comments.

Don't worry about it. The "only" here implies that you think that your comments are bothering me. They aren't. Sorry if my comments get repetitive. In earlier topics when I have argued for Ice Climbers infinites being allowed in tournaments people would always point out that I didn't go over each section piece by piece. I assumed I would have people doing the same thing here even if I went over that point earlier in my post.

Sadly, since I don't have time to go over every point right now to cover every point in this post I just want to get something I feel is important out of the way.

Jigglypuff can effectively stall underneath any stage and the opponent has no control over it. I suppose we should remove this too?

Yes to a degree. Should try to make it so Jigglypuff can maintain her recovery and comboing abilities as much as possible while nerfing her abilities to stall under stages. Increased running speed has helped make this more dangerous on some stages to some extent. I would like to make this kind of stalling less effective if we can find a way to do it. Yes.

 

[CyberGlitch]

People have given most of the points worth giving concerning the Ice Climber CG. I would just like to say I am against the CG. It's not what makes the characters who they are. That's like saying "but the whorenado makes Metaknight who he is!" Just because many Ice Climbers rely on it for the tourny scene doesn't mean they should.

The IC's need to be buffed so the don't have to rely on CG's. They still should have the advantage of being about to get off a smash on someone who's grabbed. Currently they suffer from lacking range.

How to buff them? Make their ice blocks move faster. Currently they are incredibly easy to avoid, don't lead into anything, and apply no shield pressure. Maybe reduce the friction on them that slows them down.

The non spike part of their forward air should have a bit more knockback. It's not easy to hit with, and would provide another kill option.

Is there anything we can do to make their desynching easier? Desynching really requires skill to use but does a great job at employing the Ice Climbers unique duality.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Personally I don't think anyone who says that IC's rely solely on grabs or that their metagame is overcentralized by them hasn't played a really good IC's main yet. Ulevo is right in saying that both buffs and nerfs for the character are currently unjustified.

 

[Swordplay]

you can't really do that giza. No matter how much you don't want jig to stall taking away that ability in any form would drastically nerf her onstage air game and offstage game. In the end what would you do? take away jumps? the air distance of pound? increase her falling speed?

That kind of thing was already fixed with the addition of No ASL

Unless you want to introduce a game breaking mechanic like that for IC........

There are some things we just shouldn't change. Besides, if you have ever played a good IC they hardly use grabs because they know they probably won't land it. People try way to hard not to get grabbed.

If you take away the grab. it not only hurts IC cause they loose thier infinate but the opponent can play far more aggressively and destroy IC. because he doesn't have to worry about it any more. Though this is something we may want for the entire cast, it hurts the IC enormously. All of your buffs that you propose would still not compensate for their lack of CG.

Next paragraph is extremely important

The IC metagame does NOT revolve around grabs. Rather it revolves around the opponent forcing themselves to play a DON'T GET GRABBED GAME and putting themselves in unfriendly positions where IC can punish with thier sub-par moveset.

Taking away their chain grab isn't just stripping them of a tactic, it strips the entire metagame. Something you CANNOT compensate for at this point of time.

 

[kupo15]

Taking away their chain grab isn't just stripping them of a tactic, it strips the entire metagame. Something you CANNOT compensate for at this point of time.

Its better we do it now and compensate with buffs instead of the ICers being **** out of luck when the TOs taking it away later

 

[goodoldganon]

I feel the points have been made in this thread. The arguments have become repetitive and right now it seems we are just using theory to back our points. Some are using theory to 'fix' the infinites saying that TOs might ban it down the road, or that it will centralize their gameplay too much making them only useful in specific matchups. Other are against the changes, saying we don't need to 'fix' the CGs saying that we don't have enough experience to change this mechanic.

For those not in the Back Room, we will evaluate the points made in this topic and reach a decision. In this posters belief, I wouldn't expect any changes to the ICs any time soon. Hopefully we can get Beta 4 out for you guys this week! Thanks for the participation. I'll leave this topic open for another 45minutes to an hour and then I'm gonna shut it down. Most likely this will be the last character discussion for the time being. If there is anyone you guys would like to discuss post it here. We have discussed:

1. Bowser
2. Yoshi
3. Lucas
4. King DeDeDe
5. Samus
6. Ice Climbers

 

[Team Giza]

Taking away their chain grab isn't just stripping them of a tactic, it strips the entire metagame. Something you CANNOT compensate for at this point of time.

I think you are greatly underestimating the codes we have right now.

edit: Everyone should stop using the word theory wrong. *looks down*

 

[kupo15]

and right now it seems we are just using theory to back our points. Some are using theory to 'fix' the infinites saying that TOs might ban it down the road,

Its not a theory, its happened before and its going to happen. Chudat already said he bans the infinites. Do we want our ICers to say, "Hmm, I hope they don't ban infinites because then I'm screwed" or do we want them to not have to think about it at all? Which is better for the ICers and the consistency of the tourneys

 

[goodoldganon]

Its not a theory, its happened before and its going to happen. Chudat already said he bans the infinites. Do we want our ICers to say, "Hmm, I hope they don't ban infinites because then I'm screwed" or do we want them to not have to think about it at all? Which is better for the ICers and the consistency of the tourneys

From what I understand that isn't the norm. If this becomes the norm we have the tools and suggestions to eliminate the CGs. At this moment in time we haven't even had a single big B+ tourney.

Either way, the point has been made. What else can we argue about that point? It becomes a 'Nah-uh' 'Yah-hah' argument.

EDIT: I'm willing to admit this topic might not need to be closed. But someone needs to prove it. From what I'm reading, both sides have made their points. I'll be back after I play some RE5. Peace out boyz.

EDIT2: I play WoW Giza so I use the term 'theorycraft' a lot when discussing buffs and nerfs to classes and what repercussions it could have on their end game PvE and PvP. I sometimes use it outside of it's intended context

 

[Swordplay]

Before it gets shut down I will put in my last rebuttal.

Giza, I do understand the codes we have right now but there are a lot of things we still don't know how to fix. especially around throws. We also seem to lack certain things about the grab.

EX// I do believe we don't know what the dash grab ID's are even though we know standing.

 

[Anth0ny]

The IC metagame does NOT revolve around grabs. Rather it revolves around the opponent forcing themselves to play a DON'T GET GRABBED GAME and putting themselves in unfriendly positions where IC can punish with thier sub-par moveset.

So it does revolve around grabs

But I think that this topic should be saved for later. It's probably going to be one of the most discussed topics when it comes to character changes in Brawl+. I say we move on to another character now and continue with Iceys later.

 

[Deleted member]

Infinites or no, the Ice Climbers will probably need buffs.

 

[iSpiN]

Swordplays post kinda contradicted itself, rofl.

 

[Swordplay]

Anthony, It revolves around grabs merely because it exists. It does not revolve around the actual action of grabbing and performing the infinite. People play IC's diffrently because of it. The action of playing your character differently when you play an IC is their metagame more than any other character and it is important to preserve this.

yes goodoldganon.

This thread should be closed. BUT. it should be bookmarked and reopened in a 1-3 months when we know more about the IC and their metagame.

 

[kupo15]

From what I understand that isn't the norm. If this becomes the norm we have the tools and suggestions to eliminate the CGs. At this moment in time we haven't even had a single big B+ tourney.

Either way, the point has been made. What else can we argue about that point? It becomes a 'Nah-uh' 'Yah-hah' argument.

Huh? We have had b+ tourneys with upsets about the infinites and Chu is doing b+ biweeklies.

Before it gets shut down I will put in my last rebuttal.

Giza, I do understand the codes we have right now but there are a lot of things we still don't know how to fix. especially around throws. We also seem to lack certain things about the grab.

EX// I do believe we don't know what the dash grab ID's are even though we know standing.

lol you are still underestimating things. Finding action IDs are not as hard as you make them out to be. Its quite easy to find if we haven't found it which I believe we have.

 

[Swordplay]

Swordplays post kinda contradicted itself, rofl.

lol I know. I wish I had more time to clarify my position as I've been gone but I think its time to shut it down. Everything is getting repetitive.

lol you are still underestimating things. Finding action IDs are not as hard as you make them out to be. Its quite easy to find if we haven't found it which I believe we have.

I know I was just using ID's as an example because it was the easiest to come up with.
(and I was told those specific ID's were not found to long ago even if they were found now)

There are other minor things but It's the conceptual point that in the future we will have much more knowledge skill and tools to take care of these problems than we do now.

In this posters belief, I wouldn't expect any changes to the ICs any time soon.

That is why I 10000000% agree with goodoldganon that any changes to IC will not be immediate.

Since that is happening, I fell I can safely discuss this later which is a victory in my book.

 

[Cowbox]

Holy nads. I go away for a weekend and there's a full-blown debate about the ICs.

 

[Zodac]

I feel the points have been made in this thread. The arguments have become repetitive and right now it seems we are just using theory to back our points. Some are using theory to 'fix' the infinites saying that TOs might ban it down the road, or that it will centralize their gameplay too much making them only useful in specific matchups. Other are against the changes, saying we don't need to 'fix' the CGs saying that we don't have enough experience to change this mechanic.

For those not in the Back Room, we will evaluate the points made in this topic and reach a decision. In this posters belief, I wouldn't expect any changes to the ICs any time soon. Hopefully we can get Beta 4 out for you guys this week! Thanks for the participation. I'll leave this topic open for another 45minutes to an hour and then I'm gonna shut it down. Most likely this will be the last character discussion for the time being. If there is anyone you guys would like to discuss post it here. We have discussed:

1. Bowser
2. Yoshi
3. Lucas
4. King DeDeDe
5. Samus
6. Ice Climbers

falcon buff:

* Can use falcon dive out of raptor boost (to stop suicides/use towards ledges) EITHER OR:

* Falcon kick->second jump back.

* Falcon punch - 10% quicker animation before/during hitbox,
-30%~35% less after lag and gains more moumentem in the air like 64.

* Falcon kick- 70% less landing lag when used from the air onto the stage.
(when it lags real bad and does that stupid animation)

* Falcon kick- 7% less lag after hitbox in general.

* Raptor boost- 5% less lag after hitbox.

* Flubbed knee can trip at higher % and does more damage.

* Raptor boost more inflicts more damage.

 

[Deleted member]

Holy nads. I go away for a weekend and there's a full-blown debate about the ICs.

I know how you feel, I missed the Samus discussion, I had some ideas...

 

[lain]

ITT unreasonable people

 

[goodoldganon]

ITT unreasonable people

I was about to close this topic but saw you posted. If you can keep your last words reasonable I'd love to end the topic on the word of a good IC main.

 

[CT Chia]

is lain active in brawl+? just wondering
every additional person that i learn about playing brawl+ makes me happy lol

 

[goodoldganon]

lain logged, we'll dig this duscussion up at a later time

 

[Deleted member]

is lain active in brawl+? just wondering
every additional person that i learn about playing brawl+ makes me happy lol

Nope, he just searches his name and posts wherever he gets a hit.