Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Shadic]

Instead of NADT, couldn't we just make air-dodges laggier? As in, they take longer to start, and add more vulnerable frames at the end, so there's actually a punishment factor to it?

I suppose giving an AD out of tumble a ****ton of startup lag (so that tap+AD is still significantly better) wouldn't be a terrible compromise, but I feel like the only reason people even want that is because they're too **** lazy to do anything other than mash AD to escape strings. Actually, this might not be a half-bad idea, so you get punished for mashing tap+AD too instead of timing it correctly ... hmmm.

Bam, that's how we make progress in terms of ideas, people. An idea, that idea being built upon, and then progress from there.
Not crap like this:

I could careless what your emotional response is to my messages because I'm simply telling you the truth. If you can't handle it, go find a blanket to cuddle with.

I won't bother to talk about it anymore, though. I'll just hope I see you at a tournament, MM you, and take your money.

 

[Daakun]

What is this fixation on the wiggle thing? It's just silly. Arbitrary even.

 

[proteininja]

I think MADT sounds amazing as long as its non directional. I don't want people wavelanding. Just to be punished with free fall. Worth a test in my opinion.

 

[jalued]

I think MADT sounds amazing as long as its non directional. I don't want people wavelanding. Just to be punished with free fall. Worth a test in my opinion.

why you not want wavelanding? as long as each character doesnt have the same slide length (as wavedashing is with MAD code in brawl atm), i only see it as a great boost to competitive gameplay

could also be occasionally used for recovery mindgames

just think about it: imagine your on left side of battlefield, and say falcon dthrow -> knee on you at low %... during hitstun, you fly away slightly (after DIing upwards), but just as the hitstun ends, you wiggle , wavelands and counter attack the falcon that was too slow to follow up... it just adds a layer of depth to the game that i feel it is lacking.

or other situation, You dont time it properly, fails to waveland onto the platform and instead goes into helpless state, and gets another knee to the face

dam it now i want to test it out!

btw, would the landing lag of a MADT be increased significantly, so if you failed to waveland properly you would get punished?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

1. there is also a hybrid airdodge code that is better than the melee airdodge code.



2. I like caesar's idea of 8 to 10 extra frames of startup during an airdodge during tumble...Although, I wouldn't like a melee like airdodge during tumble.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Personally, I wouldn't want to see 8-10 frames of startup lag. I don't think we want to ampe Tap/Wiggle + AD ALWAYS better. We want to make it most of the time better. If we have the ability to AD out of tumble there should be a reason to AD out of tumble at some point. The more I think about it the more I like MADT.

We basically want an air dodge during tumble to give you something, not a very good something, but something nonetheless that tap+AD doesn't give you.

We are basically creating a new game mechanic. We have redefined the game mechanics so that air dodging can only be done from an aerial ready position. You have to be out of tumble to use it.

This new Tumble Dodge is a new thing entirely. The question is, what does tumble dodge do and why would you want to do it?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hmm...RPG's post makes me think..

MADT would be quite unique...and mindgamey....and me lovin my mindgames and all....



*stamps seal of approval of MADT*

 

[5ive]

Now that thunder can be edited, I suggest

A SPIKING THUNDER FOR PIKACHU. OMFG

EDIT: OH ****. I seriously thought this was the Brawl- thread <_<

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Is there a way to bypass the problem with free-fall and R.O.B. now? I'm just curious, since the free-fall AD from tumble idea would need that.

 

[jalued]

Is there a way to bypass the problem with free-fall and R.O.B. now? I'm just curious, since the free-fall AD from tumble idea would need that.

not sure what u mean, could u clarify just for me? (im sure everyone else is rolling their eyes)

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Originally, R.O.B. does not have a free-fall animation (and because of that, no special landing lag, either), at all. So before, whenever something forces such actions onto R.O.B., it glitches up. For example, in Kupo's nightly build one time, he made it so you get landing lag if you air-dodge and land during the air-dodge. But if you did this with R.O.B., he goes into the T-pose and freezes there until something hits him.

 

[jalued]

Originally, R.O.B. does not have a free-fall animation (and because of that, no special landing lag, either), at all. So before, whenever something forces such actions onto R.O.B., it glitches up. For example, in Kupo's nightly build one time, he made it so you get landing lag if you air-dodge and land during the air-dodge. But if you did this with R.O.B., he goes into the T-pose and freezes there until something hits him.

**** *** lazy programming from nintendo?> any ideas round that so far?

 

[ValTroX]

Just was talking with Cape and had an interesting idea.

if you air dodge from tumble you go into special fall. thoughts?

Still people who are complaining they can't zair with NADT will complain, in fact i think they will complain even more because they can't zair at all with that

 

[jalued]

Still people who are complaining they can't zair with NADT will complain, in fact i think they will complain even more because they can't zair at all with that

zair affect a very minor part of the cast. Can't not try it because link mains might complain. Give them something to compensate maybe, but its hardly a major problem

 

[Plum]

You can cancel an airdodge directly into a Zair before the airdodge ends.
I would assume that the same would be for a potential MADT system if it were to be tested.
MAD could be canceled into a Zair for those it applied for in Melee, so its not bizarre to have a MAD to Zair.
In fact, that could become a recovery mixup for Zair users. Being hit out of a second jump and then purposely keeping yourself in tumble after you DI and fall back to the stage to MAD could be a decent mixup because of the ability to push yourself in any direction even after your second jump is gone and using that small boost to give your Zair enough distance to grab the ledge.
For a character like Link who is clearly lacking in horizontal recovery it could become a big help in certain situations.

Spoiler

And in the perfect world he would also be able to bomb jump again... Hey Snake, Link wants his old trick back.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

**** *** lazy programming from nintendo?> any ideas round that so far?

Well, it's not really them being crappy programmers in this case, since given R.O.B.'s moveset, he doesn't need a free-fall animation.

But speaking of bad programming, it still bothers me that all of the charge Special moves that are cancel-able in the air with shield that are new to Brawl (e.g. Lucario's Aura Sphere, Mario's FLUDD, etc.) force an air-dodge, while all of the preexisting ones (e.g. Sheik's Needles, etc.) don't force an air-dodge, and simple cancel. Makes it seem obvious that they used the old coding with preexisting moves while coding the new moves a different way.
Is this ever going to be fixed so that nothing forces an air-dodge?! (I'm hoping it's possible at the moment.)

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

**** *** lazy programming from nintendo?> any ideas round that so far?

1: make our own animation
2: use his "ive been footstooled and i'm falling" animation
3: use his falling animation
4: use his drowned and sining animation
Dark flashing on all

ect.

 

[ValTroX]

hmm just a quick question on MAD idea, you will go into special fall ONLY during tumble right? because i hated when i got hit with an horizontal attack on melee, tried to tech on stage, failed, and ended up ADing outside the stage an died, it was probably the most annoying thing for me in Melee

 

[shanus]

Is there a way to bypass the problem with free-fall and R.O.B. now? I'm just curious, since the free-fall AD from tumble idea would need that.

i already have a ROB with a special fall and special fall landlag made


hypeM ;-)

 

[Scufo]

Personally, I wouldn't want to see 8-10 frames of startup lag. I don't think we want to ampe Tap/Wiggle + AD ALWAYS better.

This is a really good point. If wiggle + AD is always a better option than AD in tumble, then that's pretty much the definition of arbitrary tech skill.

I like NADT as it is. I know we're trying not to alienate people with the AD changes, but the thing is, pretty much any nerf to AD is going to draw ire from vBrawl players, casuals, competitives...and most people who don't follow B+ closely and don't have a strong grasp on the theory behind the changes.

With AD being as powerful as it is, nearly every Brawl player has come to rely on it. I really don't think it's possible to ease people into AD nerfs. It's a dilemma, for sure.

 

[Shadic]

This is a really good point. If wiggle + AD is always a better option than AD in tumble, then that's pretty much the definition of arbitrary tech skill.

I like NADT as it is.

...Wait what? Think think No Airdodge During Tumble is more arbitrary tech skill than a laggy one instead?

 

[JCaesar]

I think MADT sounds amazing as long as its non directional. I don't want people wavelanding. Just to be punished with free fall. Worth a test in my opinion.

What do you have against wavelanding? Considering you could only do it from tumble, it would hardly be gamebreaking. I think the wavelanding aspect is what makes MADT an interesting idea in the first place. More options = good, especially when they allow for creativity like this one.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see 8-10 frames of startup lag. I don't think we want to ampe Tap/Wiggle + AD ALWAYS better. We want to make it most of the time better. If we have the ability to AD out of tumble there should be a reason to AD out of tumble at some point.

I couldn't disagree more. Unless we go with something different like MADT, then using the more difficult and skillful method (wiggle+AD) should always be the superior option if you do it correctly. It's not like it doesn't have risks. You could screw up your DI by wiggling, you could get the laggy tumble AD by hitting shield too early, or if you suck at wiggling it could end up even slower than the laggy tumble AD.

Though I'm liking the MADT option more and more. Then at least it would have some alternate, creative use.

You can cancel an airdodge directly into a Zair before the airdodge ends.
I would assume that the same would be for a potential MADT system if it were to be tested.
MAD could be canceled into a Zair for those it applied for in Melee, so its not bizarre to have a MAD to Zair.
In fact, that could become a recovery mixup for Zair users. Being hit out of a second jump and then purposely keeping yourself in tumble after you DI and fall back to the stage to MAD could be a decent mixup because of the ability to push yourself in any direction even after your second jump is gone and using that small boost to give your Zair enough distance to grab the ledge.
For a character like Link who is clearly lacking in horizontal recovery it could become a big help in certain situations.

Spoiler

And in the perfect world he would also be able to bomb jump again... Hey Snake, Link wants his old trick back.

Man I just love the way this guy thinks.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

You know, it looks like MADT is becoming more and more popular, I say we give this a test in the next nightly.

 

[Valuno]

It definitely sounds pretty good on paper, so much to adapt to though lol.
This would change the game so much.

 

[jalued]

It definitely sounds pretty good on paper, so much to adapt to though lol.
This would change the game so much.

probably for the better

it is probably the perfect solution to stop the amazing brawl airdodge and auto instinctive "airdodge out of everything" approach, and increase depth all at same time.

 

[proteininja]

i already have a ROB with a special fall and special fall landlag made


hypeM ;-)

You know not what you say Shanus. HYPE +

On another note I retract my previous opinion about directional MADT. I think it would be great. I was afraid that it would be a slippery slope to adding wave dashing, but after reading the conversation. I can see that there is no risk of that.

Once again. I would love for this to be in a test set.

 

[ValTroX]

hmm just a quick question on MAD idea, you will go into special fall ONLY during tumble right? because i hated when i got hit with an horizontal attack on melee, tried to tech on stage, failed, and ended up ADing outside the stage an died, it was probably the most annoying thing for me in Melee

still no answer

 

[Scufo]

...Wait what? Think think No Airdodge During Tumble is more arbitrary tech skill than a laggy one instead?

But having a laggy airdodge during tumble still leaves wiggle + AD as a better option. Situations where it is preferable to use a downgraded AD out of tumble, rather than wiggling out and ADing normally, just won't present themselves too often.

Essentially you're adding a worthless option. Yes, more skillful input should yield better results, but then, how is that any different from L-canceling? If there are no situations in which it is preferable NOT to perform the extra input, then it is arbitrary tech skill.

That's my feelings on laggy airdodge during tumble (LADT?). Not sure how I feel about MADT.

 

[Alphatron]

still no answer

Yeah, only in tumble.

 

[5ive]

hypeM ;-)

I think I know where this is going.
HAIL SHANUS.

 

[[TSON]]

I think I know where this is going.
HAIL SHANUS.

wh--


OOOOOH.
eh, eh, eh?

......

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Now, the question is, with the hilariously long list of things we talked about in this thread, what will the next nightly be like.

 

[CountKaiser]

HypeM

lolwut


Also, since the AD situation has pretty much been taken care of, might I suggest something for G&W?

First off, his bthrow was to make up for lack of a kill setup, right? Well, instead of the killing throw cope out, why not give him actual kill setups?

I say this for two reasons. One, I'm tired of killing throws being a band aid fix for stuff, and two, a kill setup would make G&W that much more interesting.

Only problem is, I haven't thought up a suitable setup for him. Right now the best I can come up with is making the key spike better so that a sh dair can lead into a usmash. Right now, this works at a very specific percentage due to the spike's growth in power. That, and the hitbox for the spike lasts for one frame, I think. If the growth could be reduced a bit, and the spike made to last longer, that'd be great.

But that's just me. For all I know, this idea may suck altogether.

 

[shanus]

Samus gets bomb explode on contact.


<--- i win

 

[Alphatron]

Yes you do. You shall be offered the last metroid alive as a sacrifice.

 

[goodoldganon]

It makes me warm and fuzzy to know people want to test my MADT idea and can see the practical applications of it to make the game deeper. But, we need to fix physics first. If we are continuing with the Nightly idea it is my opinion that the next Nightly should include MADT and physics fixes before we even CONSIDER discussing balance issues.

 

[Shadic]

I'd be up for a nightly with little-to-none in terms of individual character changes.

Well, besides physics, of course.
Edit:

Samus gets bomb explode on contact.

And this of course. Shanus wins.

 

[Dan_X]

It makes me warm and fuzzy to know people want to test my MADT idea and can see the practical applications of it to make the game deeper. But, we need to fix physics first. If we are continuing with the Nightly idea it is my opinion that the next Nightly should include MADT and physics fixes before we even CONSIDER discussing balance issues.

This.

Btw, +1 for MADT! Sounds like an excellent idea!

God... You know what else sounds awesome a HAD system, even one that's different from our HAD code. I have fantasies of a Brawl+ where I can slip'n'slide on cue! Seriously though, in my little world HAD is the most exciting idea that could possibly be tested in Brawl+!

/lovesHAD

 

[Shadic]

Orca, you've always been a huge HAD supporter. I still remember this thread.

My, how the times have changed.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

GoodoldGanon, could you be more specific on physics changes? Like, what specifically do you mean?

Also, I am now supporting MADT.....


P.S: I could have SWORN that GoG lived in Europe.....
P.P.S: It's a snow day for me