Bowser's Secondaries ~ Done (just a few summaries missing)

[Flayl]

Uh I just try my best to not get grabbed and it works, lol. IDK what to really say...I mean when you do get grabbed it's really gay but I can kinda minimize the risk. And also at the tournies I go to, D3's standing and small-step CGs are banned oddly enough, so that's also kinda why I don't have issues xD.

But even so, Diddy and IC's give me more problems than D3 does, even considering how bad the MU is for some people.

Diddy really isn't comparable to facing Dedede with small-step CGs -> ledge infinite.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, once you learn how to use the 'naners against Diddy, it's not so bad. You also need to presssure him or else he'll just sit back and peanut gun your approaches.

 

[Red Arremer]

I updated the OP with summaries, whee.

 

[DaButcher]

Having a main of Pikachu (Bowser is tertiary for me, but I give him lotsa love.), I've noticed a lot of similarities between Bowser and Pikachu. They both put out attacks fast, but Pikachu is fast and agile and Bowser heavy and tanky (which is why I picked him up in the first place). Thier up tilts are pretty similar, and both can be used to set up combos. I think aerial is pretty important to both of them, I use Bowser's fair to smash opponents off the stage and most of his combos are in the air. Their dsmashes work the same way, and are often used for the same purpose.
The problem with Pikachu as secondary is his ATs are a lot to swallow. QAC, locks, chaingrabs, thunder techs, RAR, the sort. Lots of stuff to pick up. Being fast is different too. Bowser can ask, "What's a hit and run tactic?"
I wouldn't secondary pikachu unless you're very determined to learn the ATs. They are very important. However, I'm loving Pikachu secondary Bowser. It works perfectly.

Learning Curve:
Pikachu is very easy to pick up and play, but he has a lot of technical stuff that might be important to learn.

If by "easy to pick up and play" you mean spam thunder and dsmash, then yes. This however, is not a very good tactic (it works sometimes though). That's like using only your smashes with Bowser and Bombing carelessly. Competitive people will make Bowser Soup with you.

He's also able to utterly **** some characters due to his DThrow-Chaingrab.

It also looks like that too. Pika also has two chaingrabs, FYI.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #13: People seeking for Vegetables on Icebergs (Ice Climbers)

 

[B!squick]

They're good against the penguin, right? Though it takes alot of practice just to desync them let alone figure out their chain grabs. I have to give the ****** children a nay.

 

[Bowser King]

At least you get the benefit of being unable to get chaingrabbed by fellow IC's (at least as long as you have nana). Making your 2nd worst matchup even.

Granted, there fairly complected. Especially with new things coming in like new ways to desync.

 

[Chuee]

They hard counter D3, but still the IC are incredibly hard to learn.

 

[Hobobloke]

So overall a pretty decent choice but requires a lot of practice.

 

[shinyspoon42]

ICs are a great secondary IF you wanted to spend massive amounts of time mastering their desynchs and chaingrabs. They can be sick nasty, but it really takes alot of effort and time, and there are easier to pick up secondaries out there.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #14: That Guy who went on a Genocide because someone took his Cake (Kirby)

 

[Hobobloke]

Goes even with DDD and is at a disadvantage with IC's not a great choice.

 

[Rapax]

I just wanted to mention that i would be really thankful, if Toon-Link would be the next one to be discussed... But, yeah, discuss who ever you want^^ I just wanted to throw it out there...

Sorry for the "senseless" posting...

 

[Red Arremer]

No problem, we'll talk about Toon Link next week.

 

[Flayl]

I don't really see the sense in having a character per week. If you have information you can share about a secondary, go ahead and share it. On the flip side, going through characters nobody here uses is a waste of time.

Maybe in the board of a more popular character limiting the discussion to 1 per week would make sense, on the Bowser boards not so much.

In short, strict organization is useful only if there IS any content to organize.

 

[Red Arremer]

The thing is, not everyone is able to access the forums daily. I took a week because it's reasonable - someone who only has internet access on weekends, for instance, can give their input on weekends.

 

[B!squick]

I think he's saying we don't really need to limit ourselves to every character once per week.

 

[Red Arremer]

Oh. Well. Okay, then?

 

[shinyspoon42]

Well ignoring the topic of how the thread should operate,

Kirby-
Whenever you pick up a secondary, you are either playing them because you think they are fun, or because they give you an advantage because they have good match ups against characters your main is weak against. If you are picking them up for fun, you wouldn't be here, so I'll address my comments to the latter group.

Kirby is not a secondary to use. He has to aircamp against D3 to go even, and the IC's beat him. Two of Bowser's worst match ups, and he doesn't do as well as other characters. Kirby doesn't cover Bowser, and as such shouldn't be used.


Bowser has trouble with anyone who has a great grab game, because grabs ignore shields, and Bowser is an entirely shield based character. The best counter to fighting grab happy characters is to (1) to space really, really, well and never get grabbed. Or, more likely, (2) stay in the air and they can't grab you. Bowser sucks in the air, and he has a weak spot beneath him where he would need to hit them from, he fails as an aerial character, and he has tiny hitboxes so he really can't outspace them. Figure out secondaries that can cover his weaknesses. MK IS NOT THE BEST BOWSER SECONDARY. People always say MK is the best secondary, but they don't realize a secondary is to cover your bad matches, and while MK goes even or better across the board with everyone, you aren't using him across the board, only in specific matches that Bowser has difficulty in. So look at the characters Bowser has trouble with, and find who they hate. Congratulations, you found your secondaries!

 

[GreenFox]

Wario is probably your best bet, he is a heavyweight like bowser but is very hard to grab making him have an advantage on king dedede and the Ice climbers which are bowsers two worst matchups.

but I mean honestly Mk is going to be the best secondary for anybody because he has no bad matchups but people don't play bowser for tier list they do it for fun.. so honestly yeah go Wario he is still S tier but I have much more respect for him :D

 

[Hobobloke]

I was under the impression Wario went even with DDD and IC's, G&W is what I consider the best choice, has a 75:35 matchup against IC's and 60:40 against DDD (according to th respective boards).

 

[B!squick]

My personal preference would have to be Olimar. It takes some practice so you're not gimped every match, but on stage, Olimar is a BEAST.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #15: I can't think of something witty, sorry (Toon Link)

& "Mei-Ling, Samus took her clothes off!" (Zero Suit Samus)

 

[B!squick]

Tink's pretty epic. Plays kinda like Wario if he had three different projectiles. Zamus is too difficult to get good with though. She requires a degree of practice that I don't feel is practical for CPing. Tink isn't a walk in the park either. Learning what to shoot or throw at your opponent and when takes it's own initiative.

Still, both would make worthy secondaries if you don't mind devoting the time to learn them.

 

[Cassius.]

Well, TL goes 50-50 with D3 apparently...looking at the matchup, and I had the honor of seeing Jash play Atomsk's D3. Uh vs IC's I assume he does...decently, and vs Diddy Kong I believe it's even. If you like using someone who has a far greater projectile game than Bowser, have at you. He's pretty useless IMO though.

ZSS is an awkward choice. She doesn't get chaingrabbed by D3, but that's the one of the few things she has going for her in that matchup. I think she beats IC's, and I'm not sure about Diddy. However, ZSS takes AGES to learn, so I wouldn't really bother.

 

[Red Arremer]

Toon Link does decent against the ICs, he can use his projectiles to separate them, especially the bomb.

Since I main Zero Suit Samus along Sheilda, a few words from me here...
She's a very precision based character, and she's pretty much the opposite of Bowser - lots of speed and combos, lack of reliable KO options, bad grab game (although her throws are decent). She has a lot going for her, does very well against the majority of the cast, has an advantage on Dedede and the Ice Climbers. However, she has a disadvantage on Diddy (it's not worse than the disadvantage Bowser has, though if I recall correctly, she does a bit better than Bowser). The only thing both have in common is that their FSmash is very laggy and should be sparingly used and that both their SideB's are awesome.
As most people correctly said, Zero Suit Samus' learning curve is among the highest in the game, since she has to play extremely precise and know her options well, as well as being able to recover properly.

If you like playing Zero Suit Samus, she's definitely a good choice as a secondary because she has an advantage on the grapplers, but if you want to pick her up just because of that, you'll be going to invest a lot of time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Unless you play Kirby, ZSS is almost never worth picking up as a secondary. She has even matchups with most of the cast so she covers you well, but she takes a lot of time just to 50:50 everyone, heh.

BTW, ZSS' fsmash is never ever used. It's such a bad move, lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #16: Hayayayayayaya! (Pit)

& Gorilla Sushi (Donkey Kong)

 

[Cassius.]

As far as I'm concerned, DK is **** near useless as a secondary. He's in the same predicament vs D3 as Bowser is, except he doesn't have a grab in the air which is like extremely a blessing. Not to say D3 is...difficult, but still in all, he's useless as a secondary if you have problems with D3.

Vs IC's, I'm not particularly sure if he beats them, but I know his down b is a key factor in that matchup. At least, I think it is. I'm pretty sure it's 45:55 though, lmao. Uh, if you have problems with IC's, DK isn't particularly the best choice...I'm sure Marth/GW/Snake/ROB? are better choices than DK. That being said, Snake is by far the worst matchup for IC's.

VS Diddy Kong...sweet jesus. There are just overall better options than DK lol

DK has monstrous tilts and very quick smashes though, I'll give him that. And, his BAir is beautiful. If you want a more aerially mobile "Bowser" who doesn't really have a grab release, or a jizzinmypantsy side b, go for DK, it's your choice lol.

I have no idea about Pit. Someone fill that in xD

For a nicer summary, and not being matchup prone, I'd just still say there are better options than DK. I'm sure Pit is a better secondary though, if not by much.

EDIT: forgot my sexy green, lmfao.

 

[B!squick]

DK's cool. Not right for CPing, but perfect for friendlies. He's big and hits hard like Bowser so the only thing you really need to learn for fun times is to spam BAir and you're golden.

Pit has an awesome projectile. Besides the multi hit attacks that combo into themselves, Pit has the same problem as Bowser in that he doesn't combo well and is a bit lacking when it comes to fast and reliable KO moves. I'm also pretty sure he doesn't have a move that's safe on block, again, much like Bowser. Pit's worth a look, but I wouldn't expect him to make a difference in Bowser's bad match ups or even an individual's bad match ups.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

I do pretty well with marth as my secondary and yoshi as my tertiary. Marth for the high-tierness and yoshi for the fun factor but no where near as fun as bowzer!!!

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #17: The Princess is in our Castle (Peach)

& "Hey, that's Luigi! Show him a little respect!"

 

[Hobobloke]

IT'S WEEGEE!

And here's a Weegee Ouija boad!

Last weekend at a tournament we threw in a lvl 9 Luigi for lolz I played him in losers and lost a game to him,he hit two shoryukens on a low ceiling stage **** was crazy crowd loved it. So i took him to pictochat and 3-stocked his ***.

 

[B!squick]

I like Luigi. Fails even more than Bowser against DeDeDe though if you can believe that. >.>

Peach is pretty leet, though it took me awhile to figure out how to Float and Dair at the same time.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #18: "Can't let you do that, Star Fox!" (Fox)

& "Just what I needed to see. Star Wolf." (Wolf)

 

[B!squick]

Ha, I should watch that episode of TWBB again. x3

Anyway. Wolf is a beast on stage with his MK-like DSmash and noob killing FSmash. Takes some getting use to. Aerials feel laggier than Bowser's (excluding BAir of course).

Fox has a cute little lazer gun. I don't really play Fox much, lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

Fox:
Seems to be a good choice, but gets eaten alive by the Ice Climbers just as bad as Bowser, although he does better against Diddy and Dedede.
Gets ***** by Pikachu and Sheik, pretty much.

Wolf:
Seems to be a good choice, but gets eaten alive by Dedede just as bad as Bowser, lol. Though he does go even with Diddy and the ICs. So yea.

Both are characters with rather high-ish learning curves, both have some trixxies you should be aware of, and they play vastly different from Bowser.
But they have the pew pew, so they're definitely worth it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #19: That other Princess that transforms into a Ninja (Sheik, Zelda, and Sheilda)

 

[Red Arremer]

Whee, triple post.

I've changed the layout of the summaries in the OP, I think it's better like this. I'll give my input to Sheilda later when I'm done with the summaries here andover in the stage thread and someone posted in between so it won't be a quadruple post.

Carry on.

 

[B!squick]

There's only, like, a couple match ups where Sheik is the better choice and I'm pretty sure none of those are Bowser's bad match ups. Maybe Dedede though.

Zelda IS awesome, but I fail with her recovery. Learn it and you win the game.