Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Week #11: Mewtwo (Lucario)
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Bowser's Secondaries ~ Done (just a few summaries missing)
- Thread starter Red Arremer
- Start date
B!squick
Smash Master
I've noticed recently that a perfectly spaced DAir will beat Meta Knight's UAir. Not that Bowser needs help against MK, I just thought it'd be something to keep in mind. Also, either I was playing him wrong, or something, but as Luc I was demolished by Ganondorf. O.o
Solid character. Good projectile to control the stage. Gigantic long lasting hitboxes on all moves. Luigi like floatiness and with good DI he's a pain to kill. I'm going off the top of my head by guessing that he does well against the Climbers but loses to the all important penguin, though he probably has an easier time than Bowser. Recovery move lacks a hitbox, so it's important you use his wall jump and cling talents. All in all though, I think it's a good character to pick up.
Also, he's a furry, and furries are <3.
Solid character. Good projectile to control the stage. Gigantic long lasting hitboxes on all moves. Luigi like floatiness and with good DI he's a pain to kill. I'm going off the top of my head by guessing that he does well against the Climbers but loses to the all important penguin, though he probably has an easier time than Bowser. Recovery move lacks a hitbox, so it's important you use his wall jump and cling talents. All in all though, I think it's a good character to pick up.
Also, he's a furry, and furries are <3.
MrEh
Smash Hero
He shoots blue stuff.
Sounds good to me.
Sounds good to me.
Alfa
Smash Apprentice
Lucario is an all around good character. Pretty much everything about him is good (except recovery, but it's still average with wall cling). However he lacks the stuff to make him amazing that other characters have, like MK's lack of lag, Wario's insane air speed, Marf's range. So far, according to the Lucario boards, Lucario has nothing worse than a 60-40 match up (and as of yet, nothing better than 60-40 either 
). Because of this, he can handle a lot of bad matchups, and I don't see him having any matchups wose than 65-35 (and that's a bit of a stretch).
). Because of this, he can handle a lot of bad matchups, and I don't see him having any matchups wose than 65-35 (and that's a bit of a stretch).
B!squick
Smash Master
Sounds like Bowser if that's the case. Hopefully when our match up discussion gets to characters like Captain Falcon we'll have something better than near average.
CY
Smash Ace
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B!squick
Smash Master
Spade was supposed to hand me the reins. I have no idea what happened to that. We could even start up a new one, but Bowser only has 4 different match ups where you would even need a secondary. Mostly, they need to be able to beat DeDeDe and going down the list you have Ice Climbers, Diddy, and probably Olimar. And for any one of those you can just use everyone's secondary, Meta Knight.
Overclassed
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 4, 2009
- Messages
- 246
Ussi
Smash Legend
o.o doesn't Bowser have 40-60s across the board? He'd need to be better no matter what to win anyways..
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
IDK, I was really enjoying this thread, just to see who goes well with Bowser. I mean it is hella obvious who does work and who doesn't, because everyone know's Bowser's piss-poor Matchups, but it'd still be nice to have. Who knows, maybe someone could pick up a character that works well with Bowser, yet they've never used said character before and do really well...
o_0
o_0
Overclassed
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 4, 2009
- Messages
- 246
The problem with bowser's secondaries is that his secondaries are almost always more competent than he is.
In order to take care of DDD, Olimar, ICs- you just need a mid-to-top character. And a lot of the time, if you're going to be playin your counter for those matches, whoever it is will make your other matchups easier as well...
And then Bowser just sort of falls to the wayside.
In order to take care of DDD, Olimar, ICs- you just need a mid-to-top character. And a lot of the time, if you're going to be playin your counter for those matches, whoever it is will make your other matchups easier as well...
And then Bowser just sort of falls to the wayside.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Lol I try to go all Bowser for most of my matches unless theyre just too frustrating or near impossible, frustrating being Diddy and impossible being D3/IC's. I really don't even have a solid secondary...I just counterpick...and thats really bad, I think I do need one. Recently I dropped ROB because he was doing pretty badly, but ROB is a really good choice because he goes even or better with Bowser's issues.
Mah Boozuh needs a servant ;-;
Mah Boozuh needs a servant ;-;
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
*breathes life into this*
There we go. We'll start with a new character in the next few days. I'll also write the summaries of the other characters. Hype.
There we go. We'll start with a new character in the next few days. I'll also write the summaries of the other characters. Hype.
My Cat Owns
Smash Apprentice
Similar to what chars you should to with the MU thread, I think instead of doing people like lucario it'd be best to mention S/top A tier chars (second for regular tournaments) or D/E chars (for low tier tourneys, since that is what bowser excels in [I assume since ICs/DDD arent even there]).
B!squick
Smash Master
You want want to play Lucario because he's sexy, though sadly not as sexy as Bowser.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Eh, that's not really true.
There are characters that actually do complement Bowser, even in Mid and Low Tier.
My Cat Owns
Smash Apprentice
How do you compliment 50-50 and 40-60 matchups across the board? :L
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
lol, those are the matchups Bowser usually plays. Unfortunately, that's how it is. You're gonna be highly disadvantaged in every tournament you take Bowser to, unless it's a Low Tier tournament.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Lol why would we need D/E tier characters for low tier tournaments? IMO Bowser cleans house around the low tiers, there's no need to use anyone else BUT Bowser in a low tier tournament.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
He's like Low Tier's Meta Knight, lol.
My Cat Owns
Smash Apprentice
So why take bowser to a normal tourney if you can just clean house with mk? No need to use anyone else, right?
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Because we either:
a] Don't like Metaknight as much as we do Bowser
b] Think he breaks the counterpicking system
c] Suck with Metaknight [me olololo]
d] Would rather use our mains
e] Want to prove something with Bowser
Basically, the only reason I use Bowser is because he's been my favorite character above all of anything and everything, and I honestly believe he's a pretty good character when in the right hands and of someone with confidence <______________<
I'm working on Metaknight though, but honeslty I'd much rather use Bowser. I just know so much more lol.
a] Don't like Metaknight as much as we do Bowser
b] Think he breaks the counterpicking system
c] Suck with Metaknight [me olololo]
d] Would rather use our mains
e] Want to prove something with Bowser
Basically, the only reason I use Bowser is because he's been my favorite character above all of anything and everything, and I honestly believe he's a pretty good character when in the right hands and of someone with confidence <______________<
I'm working on Metaknight though, but honeslty I'd much rather use Bowser. I just know so much more lol.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Because we either:
a] Don't like Metaknight as much as we do Bowser
b] Think he breaks the counterpicking system
c] Suck with Metaknight [me olololo]
d] Would rather use our mains
e] Want to prove something with Bowser
Basically, the only reason I use Bowser is because he's been my favorite character above all of anything and everything, and I honestly believe he's a pretty good character when in the right hands and of someone with confidence <______________<
And he's also extremely fun to use IMO and he's a challenge <:
I'm working on Metaknight though, but honeslty I'd much rather use Bowser. I just know so much more lol.
a] Don't like Metaknight as much as we do Bowser
b] Think he breaks the counterpicking system
c] Suck with Metaknight [me olololo]
d] Would rather use our mains
e] Want to prove something with Bowser
Basically, the only reason I use Bowser is because he's been my favorite character above all of anything and everything, and I honestly believe he's a pretty good character when in the right hands and of someone with confidence <______________<
And he's also extremely fun to use IMO and he's a challenge <:
I'm working on Metaknight though, but honeslty I'd much rather use Bowser. I just know so much more lol.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Week #12: Who's That Pokémon? It's Pikachu!
B!squick
Smash Master
I, like, don't know anything about Pikachu. >.>
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Matchups:
Pikachu works against all of Bowser's bad matchups. He's even with Diddy and the Ice Climbers and has a slight advantage on Dedede.
Learning Curve:
Pikachu is very easy to pick up and play, but he has a lot of technical stuff that might be important to learn. He's also able to utterly **** some characters due to his DThrow-Chaingrab.
Differences to Bowser's playstyle:
Pretty much all things you do with Bowser are reversed with Pikachu. He's small, light and very quick. He has a great camping game. Similarities are that Pikachu is an extremely good punisher. His recovery is awesome and he is able to kill very well. His defensive options can lack at times, but due to his speed, he can cover that weakness.
Pikachu works against all of Bowser's bad matchups. He's even with Diddy and the Ice Climbers and has a slight advantage on Dedede.
Learning Curve:
Pikachu is very easy to pick up and play, but he has a lot of technical stuff that might be important to learn. He's also able to utterly **** some characters due to his DThrow-Chaingrab.
Differences to Bowser's playstyle:
Pretty much all things you do with Bowser are reversed with Pikachu. He's small, light and very quick. He has a great camping game. Similarities are that Pikachu is an extremely good punisher. His recovery is awesome and he is able to kill very well. His defensive options can lack at times, but due to his speed, he can cover that weakness.
Chances are if you main Bowser Pikachu isn't exactly your type of character, lol.
That being said according to the thread in the Pikachu forums where they rank their matchups from hardest to easiest, Ice Climbers seems to always be in the top 5. That does not bode well for Pikachu as a secondary. He does have an advantage on Dedede though.
According to both the Dedede and the Ice Climbers forum, here's who you should pick as your secondary (has at least even matchup with both):
Diddy Kong
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers (lol)
Meta Knight
Peach (interesting, a theme secondary)
Pikachu (eh? discrepancy between boards)
Wario
Zelda (really? wow)
Unless you want to get into tertiaries.
That being said according to the thread in the Pikachu forums where they rank their matchups from hardest to easiest, Ice Climbers seems to always be in the top 5. That does not bode well for Pikachu as a secondary. He does have an advantage on Dedede though.
According to both the Dedede and the Ice Climbers forum, here's who you should pick as your secondary (has at least even matchup with both):
Diddy Kong
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers (lol)
Meta Knight
Peach (interesting, a theme secondary)
Pikachu (eh? discrepancy between boards)
Wario
Zelda (really? wow)
Unless you want to get into tertiaries.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Pikachu has very few bad matchups, actually. Ice Climbers are 60:40 to 55:45-ish (in ICs' advantage), I'd say.
Ice Climbers, especially competent Ice Climbers, are always a pain, even if you play a character who does well against them.
@That list:
I wouldn't completely go by the character boards matchups. Some of them are horribly false or simply outdated.
And yes, Zelda is indeed a good choice, she's hard to chaingrab, actually.
Ice Climbers, especially competent Ice Climbers, are always a pain, even if you play a character who does well against them.
@That list:
I wouldn't completely go by the character boards matchups. Some of them are horribly false or simply outdated.
And yes, Zelda is indeed a good choice, she's hard to chaingrab, actually.
My Cat Owns
Smash Apprentice
Imo, ICs are broken (icgs?) and shouldn't even be used. D3's icg should be banned as well...
Hi.
Hi.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I've recently started working on G&W because he's extremely fun for me.
That being said, I tried Pikachu for about a week and it was just FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
Pikachu seriously is like the total opposite of Bowser but he does so well as Bowser's secondary lol.
Characters that beat IC's make me lol because if you ever play a good IC, you can use anyone you want but you're screwed regardless. Vex told me on AIM that the top/good IC's say that they usually go even with every character except Snake <_____________________________<
How's that for a pain in the ***?
And to be totally honest with all you guys, I'm not even really concerned at all about Dedede man. Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers give me a ton of more issues than D3 does.
That being said, I tried Pikachu for about a week and it was just FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
Pikachu seriously is like the total opposite of Bowser but he does so well as Bowser's secondary lol.
Characters that beat IC's make me lol because if you ever play a good IC, you can use anyone you want but you're screwed regardless. Vex told me on AIM that the top/good IC's say that they usually go even with every character except Snake <_____________________________<
How's that for a pain in the ***?
And to be totally honest with all you guys, I'm not even really concerned at all about Dedede man. Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers give me a ton of more issues than D3 does.
My Cat Owns
Smash Apprentice
Are you facing DDD's who can pull off the infinite, or do you just respond to every grab attaepmt with a fair?
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Uh I just try my best to not get grabbed and it works, lol. IDK what to really say...I mean when you do get grabbed it's really gay but I can kinda minimize the risk. And also at the tournies I go to, D3's standing and small-step CGs are banned oddly enough, so that's also kinda why I don't have issues xD.
But even so, Diddy and IC's give me more problems than D3 does, even considering how bad the MU is for some people.
But even so, Diddy and IC's give me more problems than D3 does, even considering how bad the MU is for some people.
shinyspoon42
Smash Journeyman
I'm beginning to pick up Peach as a secondary to cover my mains, boozer and mario (sigh, they both suck at the same matchups) but its pretty tough to adjust to her style of play.
B!squick
Smash Master
It's just a matter of turning off tap jump and holding up on the control stick to hover. Once you get that down everything else falls into place pretty well. Also, it's good to remember that Peach's AD is terrible.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
So you now play Mario, Bowser and Peach? lol, themed characters. If you pick up Luigi you play the whole series.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Zelda is fail.
I mean, you can use her to go even with D3 and have a slight advantage on the Ice Climbers...but she still sucks. Like, hard.
I mean, you can use her to go even with D3 and have a slight advantage on the Ice Climbers...but she still sucks. Like, hard.
B!squick
Smash Master
Pfft, then why do you get beat Zelda? XD