Bowser's Secondaries ~ Done (just a few summaries missing)

[Red Arremer]

Secondary Character Choices for Bowser​

Yus. ;3

So yea. As we all know, Bowser is a character who tends to have tons of 40:60 matchups. However, he does have several very horrible matchups (Dedede comes to mind *coff*). Although we aren't yet completely done with the MU-discussions, I think it wouldn't hurt if we started to discuss which characters a Bowser main additionally to the turtle could play to cover the Koopa King's weaker matchups.

Considered will be the secondary character's Match Ups in general and their covering of Bowser's bad MUs, as well as how they play in comparison with Bowser. Perhaps the learning curve will be considered too. And anything else you could think of.

When a discussion is done, I will write up a summary and put it here into the OP.

Discussion Summaries

Week #1: Meta Knight
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede, is evenish with Diddy and Ice Climbers.
Learning Curve: Lower
Playstyle: Very different from Bowser's (offensive, main KO method is gimping)
Notes: Many people will know the Meta Knight matchup, so keep in mind that while you might not know the matchup you'll play, your opponent most likely already will know thei rmatchup with Meta Knight.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #1 (Part 2): Solid Snake
​

Matchups: Wins against Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against King Dedede.
Learning Curve: High
Playstyle: Differences and similarities in playstyle (camping but has great grabs and tilts)
Note: Great character to use, and has only a slight disadvantage to Dedede, but you might consider finding someone else for the penguin.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #2: Captain Olimar
​

Matchups: Wins or goes even with Dedede, Ice Climbers and Diddy.
Learning Curve: Medium to High
Playstyle: Similar to Bowser's (long range, grab shenanigans, mediocre offstage - difference is camping)
Notes: Light weight and very mediocre recovery will make him play quite different from Bowser although his general playstyle is very similar.

Overall Rating: 5/5

Week #3: Falco
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede and Diddy, loses badly against Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: Medium
Playstyle: Rather different from Bowser's (highly offensive when not camping)
Notes: Falco's a great character to use and not extremely hard to learn, but because of the fact he loses to the Ice Climbers, you should only play him if you feel comfortable using him.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #4: King Dedede
​

Matchups: Ditto against Dedede, loses against Diddy and Ice Climbers.
Learning Curve: Low
Playstyle: Similar to Bowser's (Grabbing, slow but powerful, heavyweight)
Notes: If you feel good using him, a solid choice, but he loses against all of Bowser's bad matchups just as bad except for himself, so he's not a good choice to cover those.

Overall Rating: 2/5

Week #5: Mr. Game and Watch
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede and Ice Climbers, loses against Diddy
Learning Curve: Low
Playstyle: Rather different from Bowser, but easy to get into
Notes: A very solid choice for a secondary to cover all matchups but Diddy.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #6: Marth
​

Wins against Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against Dedede
Learning Curve: Medium (due to spacing/tipping)
Playstyle: Very different from Bowser's
Notes: Loses only slightly against Dedede, so he can be a very good choice if you feel comfy with him.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #7: Jigglypuff
​

Matchups: Wins or is even with Dedede, Ice Climbers and Diddy
Learning Curve: High
Playstyle: Complete opposite of Bowser's
Notes: Might be a good choice if you know what you're doing, otherwise very hard to master.

Overall Rating: 5/5

Week #8: Diddy Kong
​

Wins against Dedede, goes even with himself and Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: High to Very High (Due to bananas)
Playstyle: Completely different from Bowser
Notes: Diddy is clearly one of the best characters in the game, but is extremely hard to master. You should have the feeling that he's the "right" choice for you to play as, otherwise you will not find yourself happy with him.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #9: Wario
​

Matchups: Wins against Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against Dedede.
Learning Curve: High
Playstyle: Direct opposite of Bowser
Notes: He only loses slightly to Dedede. If you're not comfortable with aircamping (aka running away like a little girl), Wario is definitely not the right choice for you.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #10: R.O.B.
​

Matchups: Wins or goes even with Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against Dedede
Learning Curve: Low to Medium
Playstyle: Similar to Bowser's (R.O.B. relies more on camping than on punishment like Bowser, but both play defensively)
Notes: Pew pew.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #11: Lucario
​

Matchups: Wins or goes even against Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against Dedede
Learning Curve: Medium
Playstyle: Similarities to Bowser (punishment factors)
Notes: MrEh says: "He shoots blue stuff. Sounds good to me."

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #12: Pikachu
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede, even with Ice Climbers and Diddy
Learning Curve: Medium to High
Playstyle: Few similarities to Bowser (punishment, great KO options, grabs), but mainly different from Bowser
Notes: Pikachu can be good even without the tons of technical stuff, but with them, he's a great secondary.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #13: Ice Climbers
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede, even with Diddy, ditto with Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: Very High
Playstyle: Very different playstyle to Bowser, only similarity would be grabs.
Notes: The Ice Climbers are, on paper, an extremely great secondary for Bowser, as they hardcounter Dedede and go even with the other 2 hardest matchups, however, you'll need to invest a tremendous amount of time to learn them and their incredibly technical gameplay with chaingrabs and desynching and whatnot.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #14: Kirby
​

Matchups: He goes even with Dedede and Diddy, loses to the Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: Low
Playstyle: Very different from Bowser
Notes: Probably one of the worst choices for a secondary, but if you like to play as him, you might be able to use him against Dedede or Diddy, although it's not heavily recommended to specifically use Kirby.

Overall Rating: 2/5

Week #15: Toon Link
​

Matchups: Wins against Ice Climbers, is even with Diddy, loses against Dedede
Learning Curve: Medium to High
Playstyle: Rather different to Bowser
Notes: Toon Link is a great choice, as he only loses slightly against Dedede. He's rather easy to pick up, but offers enough depth to be a great secondary.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #15: Zero Suit Samus
​

Matchups: Wins against Dedede and Ice Climbers, loses against Diddy
Learning Curve: High to Very High
Playstyle: Plays entirely different, even the punishment is completely different
Notes: A great character, but hardly worth the trouble of learning. Zero Suit Samus requires a LOT of time and training to become decent with, yet alone good enough to win as a secondary. She also loses against Diddy, doing only slightly better against him than Bowser himself.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #16: Pit
​

Matchups: Wins against Diddy and Ice Climbers, even with Dedede
Learning Curve: Medium I guess?
Playstyle: Some similarities, some differences
Notes: I have absolutely no idea about Pit, sorry. Going by the posts made in here and the matchups on paper, though, he seems to be a rather good choice for a secondary. I'll give him a 4 because I don't know about him.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #16: Donkey Kong
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Matchups: Even with Diddy, loses against Dedede and Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: Medium
Playstyle: Very similar to Bowser (Melee-ranged character, big and heavy, good range, some quick and abusable moves among more sluggish and powerful ones)
Notes: Donkey Kong is absolutely worthless for Bowser. He loses even worse against Dedede than Bowser does, and also doesn't do well at all against the Ice Climbers. He only does okay against Diddy, and that's also only even. Overall, probably one of, if not the worst choices for a secondary for Bowser.

Overall Rating: 1/5

Week #17: Peach
​

Matchups: Wins against Ice Climbers, even with Dedede and Diddy
Learning Curve: Medium to High
Playstyle: Different to Bowser, only punishing and poor vertical recovery are the same
Notes: Peach can be a very technical and difficult character to learn, but she's definitely worth a look. She has no disadvantage against Bowser's hard matchups, making her a solid secondary.

Overall Rating: 4/5

Week #17: Luigi
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Matchups: Wins against Diddy, loses against Ice Climbers and Dedede
Learning Curve: Medium
Playstyle: Very different to Bowser
Notes: Luigi does rather decently against Diddy, but that's all he has going for him. He's not insanely difficult to learn, but he plays very different from Bowser and loses against the grapplers, as well. Therefore, unless you really want to play him, Luigi is a bad choice for a secondary.

Overall Rating: 1/5

Week #18: Fox
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Matchups: Even with Dedede, loses against Diddy and Ice Climbers
Learning Curve: High
Playstyle: Absolute opposite of Bowser
Notes: Fox is in the same boat as Luigi, as he loses just as bad against Diddy and the Ice Climbers as Bowser does. Additionally, he's incredibly easy to counterpick (Sheik, Pikachu), so unless you really want to play Fox, just avoid him as a secondary.

Overall Rating: 1/5

Week #18: Wolf
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Matchups: Even with Diddy and Ice Climbers, loses against Dedede
Learning Curve: High
Playstyle: Rather different to Bowser, however, some similarities (good defense, some abusable moves)
Notes: Wolf gets eaten by Dedede just as bad as Bowser does. However, against the other two bad matchups he does do decently well. Wolf is a character who's hard to master, especially with his awkward recovery. Otherwise, definitely worth a look.

Overall Rating: 3/5

Week #19: Sheik, Zelda, Sheilda
:shiek: + ​

Summary coming later

Week #20: Sonic - Current Discussion


Week #20: Pokemon Trainer - Current Discussion
​

 

[Red Arremer]

Week Day #1: Meta Knight​

Discuss.

 

[B!squick]

I just don't play Meta Knight. The only time I ever pick him is if someone online is being really ****-tacular and even then it's only occured once.

Meta Knight is God tier with no bad match ups and anyone can play him. He's EVERYONE'S secondary.

 

[Red Arremer]

Haha.

I knew MK wouldn't take too long. Well, I'll wait a one or two days, otherwise I'll just put it very simple into the OP and make another char.

 

[Red Arremer]

I just saw this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204334

Should we leave at what has been said over there, or would it be better/interesting if my thread stays and we talk about all possibilities?

 

[B!squick]

That one's more of a "who's your secondary" topic. This is a bit more in depth, "who out of the cast would be a good secondary(s)."

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea... I realized that after reading the thread further. ;O

So yea. MK.

He has no bad MUs, and is definitely a good secondary for Bowser. If anyone else has more to say, please do so, otherwise I think we can end that one early. ;o

 

[Bowser King]

Pick MK.


>_>
<_<


Anyway, MK as a secondary is basically a pretty good choice.
I hate going MK though. If you choose MK, there will always (most likely) be better MK's then you (M2K). If your playing in a small tourney, MK is pretty good but even then there's bound to be some MKs. Basically the main reason I don't like playing MK, other then that he's a really good char.

^^Above is if using as a main which doesn't really apply here

-Bowser King

 

[Red Arremer]

If you choose MK, there will always (most likely) be better MK's then you (M2K). If your playing in a small tourney, MK is pretty good but even then there's bound to be some MKs.

Of course, but isn't M2K's MK (or any other MK) there regardless of whom you secondary?

The only thing that can go against him is the fact that pretty much every character board put their emphasis on how to beat MK, so it's not the MK players themselves, but rather people who learned that MU to death and exactly know how to deal with an MK.

 

[Bowser King]

Of course, but isn't M2K's MK (or any other MK) there regardless of whom you secondary?

The only thing that can go against him is the fact that pretty much every character board put their emphasis on how to beat MK, so it's not the MK players themselves, but rather people who learned that MU to death and exactly know how to deal with an MK.

Yes but...

>_>
<_<

OK, you got me there.

-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

Drop Bowser and main MK.

There's no reason to secondary him.

 

[Red Arremer]

lulz.

Okay, I think we all have the same opinion, so... I'd say, let's go with Number 2 already:

Week #1 (Part 2): Solid Snake

Discuss... Meta Knight didn't REALLY need a discussion, right? XD

 

[MrEh]

If it can't deal with D3, then I don't want it. lol

 

[Red Arremer]

Haha. MrEh is always lurv. ^_^

Anyway, I'd really appreciate your serious input, as you're probably one of the, if not THE most knowledgeable Bowser player around. I'm certain you can say more than just "De3 counter plox" XP

 

[MrEh]

Anyway, I'd really appreciate your serious input, as you're probably one of the, if not THE most knowledgeable Bowser player around. I'm certain you can say more than just "De3 counter plox" XP

Nah, I'm not the most knowledgeable Bowser player. That goes to Sliq and Vex. ^^


In my opinion, there are 3 death matchups for Bowser. They are Diddy, Ice Climbers, and Dedede. Snake can handle Diddy and IC methinks, but he cannot beat Dedede reliably. Because Dedede is the most common of the three, that's a very big problem. Dedede is the reason that you need a secondary for Bowser. If your secondary can't deal with it, then why bother?

Of course, picking up Snake to deal with other bad matchups is fine. It makes dealing with things like Marth easier. And Snake runs over any of the lower tiers that might give Bowser trouble.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well it really depends on whether the Infinite is banned or not, I'd say. But I agree, it mainly comes down to De3... Man, that chaingrabbing jerk surely ruins the game for Bowser. =/
Snake has a 35:65 MU to Dedede, the rest is pretty much as you said, MrEh.

He can handle some of Bowser's worse MUs just fine, including Zero Suit Samus and Diddy. Snake sure is a good choice, and considering his playstyle is more similar to Bowser's than Meta Knight's, it might be easier to pick him up. Of course, Snake is far harder to pick up than Meta Knight, so I guess that's another argument against him. I'd say if you like characters with different properties to Bowser, Snake is definitely worth a thought.

 

[MechaBoozer20XX]

Olimar?

I've been recently trying to get a secondary for the DDD match-up, and I kinda like his playstyle.
A little strange trying to transition but it's all fun.

 

[Red Arremer]

Eh, fine by me. I guess we can take 2 characters a week... it's not like we have to discuss tons, anyway. I'll add Olimar in a lil.

 

[B!squick]

Lol, Olimar is such a random mention. Especially after that match up discussion. XD

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #2: Captain Olimar and Pikmin

Now making it official... Discuss!

 

[Bragi]

Olimar, at least on paper, would be a good secondary for Bowser. He has Dedede covered, and according to the matchup chart he goes fairly even with Diddy and IC. However, judging by the same source, it looks like if that's your only criteria (and these matches, I would think, would largely be the deciding factor), Zelda would be an even better choice. She does even better than Olimar against Diddy and Ice Climbers. I actually secondary Zelda myself, in case I ever run up against a Dedede who likes to infinite. On the other hand, I'm learning Olimar now, too, so I'll have to see how he works out.

 

[MrEh]

The Zelda chart is whacked. I wouldn't follow that.

Olimar does deal with D3 though, with is very important.

 

[B!squick]

If you can pivot grab (and what good Bowser player doesn't know how to do that?) definately go with Oli. He has the draw back of a really terrible recovery, so make sure you stay far away from the edges of any given stage.

Also, about the only thing useful I got from the Olimar match up discussion is that Olimar does really good on Norfair, just like Bowser.

Come to think of it, I think Olimar plays about the same way Bowser does. Great grab game, powerful attacks. No OoS awesomeness that I know of, but a great projectile, so it evens out.

 

[MrEh]

Olimar camps 50 times harder then Bowser.

He's also gimp. lol

 

[B!squick]

If Bowser had a decent way to force approaches, he'd be the best camper in the game. :O Well, aside from Wario... and MK. =_=

 

[Red Arremer]

Week #3: Falco Lombardi

Discuss! =3

 

[Bowser King]

Does well against D3 so that's a plus. Not sure about IC's but I'm guessing he doesn't do to bad or even against them (again, I'm guessing)

-Bowser King

 

[SpeedAcE]

I don't know guys, I think Falco is a rather flimsy character choice in this case.

His matchup vs D3 is extremely favorable, and he can also handle Diddy considerably well. He is also very easy to pick up; if I were looking for a means to handle the aforementioned characters he is a viable pick.

But then you have IC's and Pikachu to consider. Falco/ICs is generally thought of as slightly in favor of ICs, not to mention it's one of the most tedious and meticulous matchups ever. Falco does well against Pikachu excluding the grab game, similar to IC's in a way. Falco isn't a strong choice against either of those characters.

Honestly I'd say only go for Falco if you're solely worried about D3.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Ice Climbers **** Falco, lol.

But Falco is ok vs. a majority of the cast, mostly those Bowser sucks against (again, minus ICs).

 

[B!squick]

Eh, Falco is Falco, not much to say about him. He's a high tier. *shrug*

EDIT: Arg, forgot, I was going to update my avatar on a weekly basis. x_x
EDIT2: There we go. Dark Wing Duck for the win.

 

[Red Arremer]

Eh, Falco is Falco, not much to say about him. He's a high tier. *shrug*

Very great contribution, lol.

I think Falco can be a solid choice for Bowser as a secondary, mainly to deal with Dedede, but also with some of Bowser's other bad MUs.
Problem would still be the ICs, for which you would need another character. Considering Pikachu also is in his favor for both of them, I don't know.

Either way, Falco is a pretty good choice, I guess, and can deal with many things that are troublesome for Bowser.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Spadefox, I agree with JayDeth, going into this much detail about secondaries is unnecessary.

It's virtually as simple as: How high on the tier list are they? The higher they are, the better they'll be with very few exceptions.

 

[Red Arremer]

Eh. Other boards do it. So I thought we maybe should do it, too, because Bowser does have a few bad matchups and weaknesses that should be covered with a secondary. And of course to get some live in here.

Even tho more seasoned Bowser players know that stuff, newcomers won't. I just want to make it indepth and discuss with you guys because I don't know all characters and want to hear your opinions on them; otherwise I would write a guide or something.

Honestly, saying "he's high tier", despite being a good argument, is not really helpful. Look at Snake. Or Donkey Kong. They do bad against De3, so they won't be chosen as possible secondaries, despite their tier position.

 

[Hobobloke]

He can show Dedede how it feels to be chaingrabbed!

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Why don't we just pick-up Dedede then to compensate? lol

No but really regarding Falco, he could be a good secondary. But like it's mentioned, the IC's are still as threat (honestly, I think they are my overall hardest match-up)

 

[Red Arremer]

Why don't we just pick-up Dedede then to compensate? lol

No. Just no. Bowser players have too much honor to main Dedede. I hope... <.<

 

[Sgt. Baker]

No. Just no. Bowser players have too much honor to main Dedede. I hope... <.<

I better never see a Bowser and Dedede working together.

Only room for one King I believe

 

[Liquid Gen]

I love D3, and I love playing him with Bowser.

I also team with a D3.

 

[B!squick]

I love D3 if only because of his "crouch" and if you're feeling naughty make sure you hold an item when you do it and laugh when he smacks himself in the face.

But I digress. Might as well expand on Falco. Let's see... Shield is useful for troublesome bananas. He has his chain grabs and lasers. He's not particularly easy to pick up which I feel is vital for secondaries. The less time you spend learning another character is more time spent learning your main. I personally wouldn't pick him.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco's probably worst disadvantage is probably Ice Climber's, so yeah, that's not good.

On the other side of the coin, Falco is Diddy's worst matchup and D3's second or third worst.