Social Bowser's Castle

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So many Bowsers. It's good to see our player base isn't falling by the wayside after a year in to the game.

The situation is actually totally different for 1.1.1.

Smashville's case before was that if you grabbed from the stage, it's double kill. If you grabbed from the platform, Bowser dies. It was that discovery that led us to realize our data was flawed. It wasn't based on stage, or stage phase, but Bowser's vertical position.

I don't have 1.11 to run tests of my own, but as far as I know, Bowsercide verdicts aren't any different since it's reversal of the bug on Wii U release. But more data is always appreciated. To assume that they would change a bug in any way that they've already proven cannot (or will not) fix is a hard sell. Why would they bother? In 1.06, (the first balance patch since Wii U release), they gave us more control over the move. So that the vast majority of Bowsercides would be intentional ones. They can't remove Flying Man from Magicant on 3DS, but they can alleviate the frequency of the issue they created.

 

[Locuan]

There are no locals in my area that I can get to.

First of all, welcome to Smashboards. Secondly, your location says you are from Houston so...
http://smashboards.com/threads/hous...-battlegrounds-announced-check-out-op.344694/

That's the thread pretty much covering the Houston scene. It's pretty active. You should also ask around there for information on tournaments in Houston and just to see if anyone wants to play smash. In fact, Texas itself is a strong region in terms of skill for Smash 4 nationwide. Houston is actually one of the strongest in Texas itself. There are tournaments happening around the clock in Houston so I'm sure you'll be able to find something. The best thing about Smash is the amount of people you meet. You'll end up making great friends on the long run who will also help you out.

Additionally, if you need any help around Smashboards, don't be afraid to ask anyone here (or myself). I'm sure a lot of people would be glad to help out.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So many Bowsers. It's good to see our player base isn't falling by the wayside after a year in to the game.



Smashville's case before was that if you grabbed from the stage, it's double kill. If you grabbed from the platform, Bowser dies. It was that discovery that led us to realize our data was flawed. It wasn't based on stage, or stage phase, but Bowser's vertical position.

I don't have 1.11 to run tests of my own, but as far as I know, Bowsercide verdicts aren't any different since it's reversal of the bug on Wii U release. But more data is always appreciated. To assume that they would change a bug in any way that they've already proven cannot (or will not) fix is a hard sell. Why would they bother? In 1.06, (the first balance patch since Wii U release), they gave us more control over the move. So that the vast majority of Bowsercides would be intentional ones. They can't remove Flying Man from Magicant on 3DS, but they can alleviate the frequency of the issue they created.

They could just kill the flying man instead of ****ing Bowser up the shell.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

They could just kill the flying man instead of ****ing Bowser up the shell.

Mmm, I'm sure the balancing team were quick to suggest this to Sakurai.

 

[KingKong_ad]

The situation is actually totally different for 1.1.1. We don't have exact data yet but smashville now can cause losses. Duck Hunt can also cause ties. It may be character dependent. It may be percent dependent. It may be distance dependent. I honestly have no idea. It needs a lot of testing.

Ill do some tests when I will have free time

 

[Big Sean]

So many Bowsers. It's good to see our player base isn't falling by the wayside after a year in to the game.



Smashville's case before was that if you grabbed from the stage, it's double kill. If you grabbed from the platform, Bowser dies. It was that discovery that led us to realize our data was flawed. It wasn't based on stage, or stage phase, but Bowser's vertical position.

I don't have 1.11 to run tests of my own, but as far as I know, Bowsercide verdicts aren't any different since it's reversal of the bug on Wii U release. But more data is always appreciated. To assume that they would change a bug in any way that they've already proven cannot (or will not) fix is a hard sell. Why would they bother? In 1.06, (the first balance patch since Wii U release), they gave us more control over the move. So that the vast majority of Bowsercides would be intentional ones. They can't remove Flying Man from Magicant on 3DS, but they can alleviate the frequency of the issue they created.

Yeah @a stray cat has a theory that I agree with which is that the behavior that exists for 1.1.1 was actually a side effect of some other change. It probably wasn't a balance fix of any kind. Just like the magicant fix wasn't a balance fix.

 

[Jerodak]

So what's this flying man glitch? Bowser infinite fall with a flying man or something? Did it work with Dorf too? I notice that ganoncide just K.Os the Bird man normally. Did it always do that?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So what's this flying man glitch? Bowser infinite fall with a flying man or something? Did it work with Dorf too? I notice that ganoncide just K.Os the Bird man normally. Did it always do that?

I only found footage of it once, but if Bowser took a Flying Man over the ledge in Magicant, he would be falling indefinitely. This was when the Bowsercide bug wasn't reversed - Bowser was the one being released before death, allowing him to attempt a recovery.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Im actually doing the testing about bowsercide... this is so long !!!!!!!!

Also, I will test what could affect the win of a bowsercide.
So far I have:
-Characters
-Stage
-Grounded Side B/Aerial Side B
-Height
-Damage
-Port

Is there anything else that can might affect the bowsercide that you can think of ?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I doubt it's based on character. I know I got a consistent Bowser Dies First verdict on Battlefield with every character from the ground.

 

[Big Sean]

So what's this flying man glitch? Bowser infinite fall with a flying man or something? Did it work with Dorf too? I notice that ganoncide just K.Os the Bird man normally. Did it always do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llwSOCOhJ_8

Im actually doing the testing about bowsercide... this is so long !!!!!!!!

Also, I will test what could affect the win of a bowsercide.
So far I have:
-Characters
-Stage
-Grounded Side B/Aerial Side B
-Height
-Damage
-Port

Is there anything else that can might affect the bowsercide that you can think of ?

Distance horizontally and starting from a platform potentially. Make sure to test a lot. I tested dozens of times with lucas on smashville and lost every time. After another try I got a tie out of nowhere.

 

[Big Sean]

I doubt it's based on character. I know I got a consistent Bowser Dies First verdict on Battlefield with every character from the ground.

From what I can see Battlefield and Town and City seem to be lose every time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So what's this flying man glitch? Bowser infinite fall with a flying man or something? Did it work with Dorf too? I notice that ganoncide just K.Os the Bird man normally. Did it always do that?

Ganon could kill Flying man just fine.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Guys, in case some people are interested. I will enter again the weekly tournament in my area. There is a good stream and I might play a few matches on it.

So here is the link for those who are interested.

http://www.twitch.tv/ssbmtl

 

[Daxter]

Hey there guys.

I've been trying to main Bowser since just after launch. I already main Robin and Mii Swordfighter.

Each time I try to return to him though, I get put off by his hitboxes and landing lag. He's one of my favourite characters in Nintendo history though, so I really don't want to give up! I was wondering if anyone could offer a rookie Bowser some advice. Oh and for the record, no I don't spam Down-Air/Down-Specials.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey there guys.

I've been trying to main Bowser since just after launch. I already main Robin and Mii Swordfighter.

Each time I try to return to him though, I get put off by his hitboxes and landing lag. He's one of my favourite characters in Nintendo history though, so I really don't want to give up! I was wondering if anyone could offer a rookie Bowser some advice. Oh and for the record, no I don't spam Down-Air/Down-Specials.

Well, when your landing lag among your five aerials is 20 - 40 frames, you have to get used to the idea that you can't fall with them on people. Fair and Bair do autocancel if short hop aerials are your thing. Plus, aerial Side B is lagless upon landing. This isn't just handy for approaching people and grabbing through their shields, it's also an alternatively to teching the ground if you're in tumble. Or even turning Bowser around immediately upon landing to face your opponent for a jab or shieldgrab. Bowser's main issue with aerial fighting is his 8 frame jumpsquat and 6 frame hard landing lag. Add to that his very large frame, and you don't have the option of jumping over projectiles like other, sheik-er characters can. Best to get good at shielding projectiles and approaching calmly. Bowser likes the fight from the ground. Pokes with jab and Dtilt, Anti-air from Utilt and Usmash, and lots of pivot grabs when they approach. Bowser may not be wielding a sword, but his range and priority are a match for anybody that isn't carrying one. In this regard, you can play him as a mid-range zoner instead of grappler/rushdown. Try out both of the styles, since one is often more ideal than the other in specific matchups. For instance, you can't really out-zone Marth, but you can zone Mario and Luigi and other characters that are always fishing for grabs.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I guess I should still introduce myself…?

Well, Hi .w. I'm S-H-Hedgehog (Just call me SH though…or my furry name, Muto) And I'v been a long time Bowser main throughout any Smash game he's in wether it be Brawl, Smash 4, and even Smash Flash 2. (When he's out that is) I'm a massive shy guy, so I do have some trouble speaking, but get to know me and I think i'm fun to be around. Everything I know about Bowser so far is purely self taught. From frame 1 jabs > other attacks to waveslashing. There are no locals in my area that I can get to. Nobody around seems to be interested in Smash as much as me if at all, so I have no choice but to stick to online play to aquire ANY sort of matchup or tournament knowledge…Yet I still don't know what i'm doing. I just need help improving on what I know and what do I NEED to know? The treads here are helpful, but weren't enough for me for some reason. So I think I just gotta find other Bowser players and maybe i'll learn something, so here I am.

I hope I can make a name for myself some day in Smash 4 (my main game), and I hope I don't become bothersome here…

Oh hey SH Hedgehog! I remember you from BotanicSage's stream, how ya been? Welcome to the Royal Bowser Boards, hope you enjoy your stay~

 

[KingKong_ad]

For the bowsercide, I pretty much found the same things. Its pretty consistent with the height bowser is. I did a custom stage with different height and it was always the same result depending from where I started the Klaw. For this reason, grounded side B on some stages will always result in a tie. (Final Destination by example) I would like to test it more but I think I might actually focus on something more useful for me first.

I would like to know if we can buffer out of an airdodge ? Could be useful for some of my research.

BTW Fun fact. In a case of a sudden death, the game considers bowser will always win when he does a bowsercide resulting in another tie.

 

[S_B]

BTW Fun fact. In a case of a sudden death, the game considers bowser will always win when he does a bowsercide resulting in another tie.

Why Sakurai, why????

 

[MagiusNecros]

BTW Fun fact. In a case of a sudden death, the game considers bowser will always win when he does a bowsercide resulting in another tie.

............what?

 

[Jerodak]

KingKong_ad

Short hop air dodge side b? Yeah it's doable. From ledges too if you know the timing, but it's tricky.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I praticed my aerials cancels with bowser today. When I was doing full hop nair and fastfall a bit to autocancel, I did a downB at the exact same time as I landed. I did a grounded downB but it was really fast like if I didnt even suffer my normal landing lag from a full hop. When I dont time it, I feel the downB is really slower. It might be just me tough.

EDIT: The reason why I think I dont suffer my landing lad is I dont hear the sound that bowser usually does when he lands when performing the downb, but all the other moves I do from my cancel aerials do it.

 

[Jerodak]

I know that you can cancel landing lag into specials in two instances. First is after a short hop air dodge or ledge hop air dodge. The second is when landing after a side b.

Maybe you just found another instance. Guess some tests could be done.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I tested it more and I was able to cancel my landing in only those conditions:

-Doing a full hop
-Doing any aerial and autocancel it
-All special moves seem to ignore landing lag


I have a video of it that I saved if someone wants to see it

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I tested it more and I was able to cancel my landing in only those conditions:

-Doing a full hop
-Doing any aerial and autocancel it
-All special moves seem to ignore landing lag

You're right. I found exactly what you're talking about and was just on my way to create a video of my own. The fast fall timing is consistent for any of Bowser's aerials (except Dair since that won't autocancel from a full hop). Fast fall right as Bowser begins his descent from a full hop. The moment at which you perform your aerial can be at any time during the jump, as long as the move is autocancelled. The only strict element is your fast fall timing.

It also appears other characters can perform this as well. So it's not some character-specific bug. The height for your fast fall on each character is different since everybody has a different amount of time it takes to land from a full hop. But the timing is very possibly the same in terms of frames after leaving the ground.

 

[KingKong_ad]

It is exactly what I found. Its not too hard to do with some practice.

 

[Cronoc]

Going to the Extra Live Charity tournament on Saturday. I'd mostly like to play friendlies, but I'll probably be disappointed. The last tournament I went to was back in April, so I've been out of it for some time now. Based on previous experience I will:

-Play poorly in general
-Not have time to adapt to the feel of playing offline (I play exclusively online besides tournaments)
-Run into high tier matchups or rare characters I don't have enough experience with

And now I see they don't allow wireless controllers anymore, so I get switch back to using the gamecube's analog triggers to jump instead of digital ones, making shorthops inconsistent. All that said, I'll try to make the best of it. I already registered, so that's all I can do. Maybe I'll play an hour of fights against CPUs the night before to try and get used to offline play.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I know that you can cancel landing lag into specials in two instances. First is after a short hop air dodge or ledge hop air dodge. The second is when landing after a side b.

You just made my bowsers approach better with just that, I didnt know it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Here, I made a visual aid. Look for the white sparkle to know when I am fast falling. This isn't totally ground breaking tech, but it's easy to perform and we may find some cool use for it. Good find, KingKong_ad

 

[KingKong_ad]

I would like to know if we have images with bubble of our hitboxes, Im really curious to see what our hitboxes look like.

 

[Cronoc]

An anti-climactic update here... Last night I tried playing on a couple gamecube controllers, old and new, and it just doesn't work. My shield play is garbage, jumping is ok but sub-optimal. My play suffered to an unacceptable degree. There's a reason I ordered my Hori fight pad immediately after trying a gamecube controller with Smash 4, it just doesn't work for me at all. I sent a message to the TO regarding dropping out of the tournament. I get the reasoning for banning wireless controllers, but it still sucks and if the wireless controller ban is universal in my area then I'm probably done with the tournament scene. Which is funny, given how this was going to be my return. Oh well.

Honestly disappointed that the community hasn't figured out a wired solution for a controller with digital triggers. FGC guys would never play on an arcade stick with spongy, imprecise buttons but it seems to be accepted for Smash 4. I would be perfectly happy to pay good money for a frankensteined gamecube controller with digital triggers, or a frankensteined Hori fight pad with a gamecube controller connection.

 

[Big Sean]

An anti-climactic update here... Last night I tried playing on a couple gamecube controllers, old and new, and it just doesn't work. My shield play is garbage, jumping is ok but sub-optimal. My play suffered to an unacceptable degree. There's a reason I ordered my Hori fight pad immediately after trying a gamecube controller with Smash 4, it just doesn't work for me at all. I sent a message to the TO regarding dropping out of the tournament. I get the reasoning for banning wireless controllers, but it still sucks and if the wireless controller ban is universal in my area then I'm probably done with the tournament scene. Which is funny, given how this was going to be my return. Oh well.

Honestly disappointed that the community hasn't figured out a wired solution for a controller with digital triggers. FGC guys would never play on an arcade stick with spongy, imprecise buttons but it seems to be accepted for Smash 4. I would be perfectly happy to pay good money for a frankensteined gamecube controller with digital triggers, or a frankensteined Hori fight pad with a gamecube controller connection.

Are you aware of the wired controller clause? https://twitter.com/RCHMSTR/status/651423668665479168

 

[Cronoc]

Are you aware of the wired controller clause? https://twitter.com/RCHMSTR/status/651423668665479168

I had read somewhere about people taking the wireless capability out of a pro controller and having it work on USB. I'm not a big fan of the face button placement but at least the triggers are good there. The rules for Extra Life say... huh... they seem to have changed them since I sent my email about dropping out to Andrew and the generic smash.gg email. They used to say that only the gamecube controller was legal. Now they allow wireless controllers. Well, I guess I'm going on Saturday after all.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah at the upstate regional I went to two weeks ago wireless controllers were banned but a lot of people removed the batteries or something out of the controllers and just had them hooked up via usb. seemed to work perfectly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I loathe wireless controllers. I would ban them if I ever ran an event.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Here, I made a visual aid. Look for the white sparkle to know when I am fast falling. This isn't totally ground breaking tech, but it's easy to perform and we may find some cool use for it. Good find, KingKong_ad

For me this is new. While not groundbreaking it might be something for us to use if we don't want to give a tell we won't have land lag by throwing out a Klaw. Since it's common knowledge Bowser has land lag usually to all players.

Edit: Also watched your vids on shield push and Dair vs. recoveries. Good stuff.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

For me this is new. While not groundbreaking it might be something for us to use if we don't want to give a tell we won't have land lag by throwing out a Klaw. Since it's common knowledge Bowser has land lag usually to all players.

Edit: Also watched your vids on shield push and Dair vs. recoveries. Good stuff.

Yeah, I made those unlisted since they were tied with conversations being had on the moveset thread just a few months ago, but I don't think context is necessary when you're dealing with a visual aid, rather than words. Made them public after I put up the landing video.

Regarding the hard landing lag cancels, I'm still wracking my brain for uses. Since aerials have to be performed from a full hop, the prospect of true comboing into any special seems extremely far fetched. Only Nair hits weakly enough to keep them near enough for grounded Bomb to reach them, but they've regained control way before Bowser starts falling. Instead of true comboing into anything, the best use is probably the fake out you mentioned. Like if you Naired a falling opponent and they air dodged past, a proper cancel will let you follow up with a grounded klaw or Bomb 6 frames faster. Try Fortress too. It feels pretty good to be moving with Nair, and then moving with Fortress on landing without skipping a beat.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah it's not safe to lead into anything. Just something that lets us act if our opponent tries to chase.

 

[Cronoc]

Best I can think for the hard landing cancel is... maybe getting down slightly earlier to get usmash out if fighting a character with a dair like Sonic/Sheik/ZSS... but I don't think that process needs to be rushed by 6 frames honestly.

Yeah at the upstate regional I went to two weeks ago wireless controllers were banned but a lot of people removed the batteries or something out of the controllers and just had them hooked up via usb. seemed to work perfectly.

If only my Hori battle pad had a GC connection instead of connecting into a Wiimote...

I loathe wireless controllers. I would ban them if I ever ran an event.

As I loathe the GC controller in this game. Wish there was a modder or small company making good quality GC controller alternatives like people do in the rest of the FGC. I actually typed up a thread to complain to Reddit about this... maybe I'll post it tomorrow.

 

[Hitman JT]

Are you aware of the wired controller clause? https://twitter.com/RCHMSTR/status/651423668665479168

...Well holy ****, I'm gonna try this. I switched off of the pro to a GC controller because of wireless interference...I prefer the pro though for the triggers and the face buttons. Just sucks that I don't have a small enough phillips head