Social Bowser's Castle

[a stray cat]

Bowser's got some issues, but I'll never agree with somebody that thinks Bowser has trouble landing in Smash 4. Practice the new tech and quit whining.

If they're letting you get to the ground at all, they're doing it wrong, tumble or no. The lack of landing options is just that -- everyone in the cast has the option to land normally, but most characters also have some sort of aerial they can use to stuff things like grab attempts or dash attacks, and are relatively safe on shield. Bowser's landing options are land normally, or use a laggy landing aerial that is neither safe on shield or whiff. On top of that, landing normally for Bowser has 2 extra frames of lag on hard landing compared to most of the cast, making it easier to stuff.

Denying that this is a weakness for Bowser and that we don't have to take special care to make it back to the stage doesn't help anyone get better IMO.

 

[S_B]

Denying that this is a weakness for Bowser and that we don't have to take special care to make it back to the stage doesn't help anyone get better IMO.

Yeah, if you ARE going to land, land with side+B of course, but landing still sucks, one way or another.

There's a reason we see most Bowsers opt to fall to the ledge in tournaments when the opponent has stage control.

 

[a stray cat]

Yeah, if you ARE going to land, land with side+B of course, but landing still sucks, one way or another.

There's a reason we see most Bowsers opt to fall to the ledge in tournaments when the opponent has stage control.

You only need to land with the side-b if you're in tumble (and so you do it as late as possible in place of a tech), or mean to grab them with your side-b. Otherwise all it does is lock you into up to 50 frames of commitment in the air.

 

[Big Sean]

Bowser definitely has a hard time landing, which is the reason Bowsers in all iterations of the game are canonically known to Bowser bombing the ledge all the time.

I think it's important to realize that fast falling a no-lag aerial is just 1, very powerful, but 1 option for landing. If I knew my opponent was always going to fast fall aerial, I would 100% punish them. Instead it's just one powerful option in a set of mixups for landing:

• Teching in place
• Tech Roll
• Tech -> Spot Dodge
• No tech -> a bunch of mixups
• fast fall mixups. The timing you fast fall can really throw of your opponent
• b reverse
• buffered roll
• buffered shield
• buffered spot dodge
• saving your second jump until the very last moment
• go to the ledge, including up + b-ing there.

So really we are missing 1 option in a giant list of options. In addition though I would say Bowser has more unique landing options than most of the cast:

• Dair
• Bowser Bomb
• Firebreath
• Slow Fall -> Klaw

Altogether the options we have are probably more numerous but overall weaker than the rest of the cast. Still, even though landing is hard I always feel like if I made the read correctly that I should always be able to win the landing situation, I just have to make a way harder read than most people. The exception being when I played nairo and he would do a spaced tether grab. I think that literally beat every single option I had.

 

[Jerodak]

Don't forget footstooling. It's useful vs shielders and dash grabbers especially. But it's a decent option for escaping landing traps, or just keeping your jump longer.

 

[a stray cat]

I have to say I disagree Sean. You can group everything you listed into two groups, and the reason for the grouping is how you punish them:

1. Landing with an attack
2. Landing without an attack

The way you punish either are opposites. If they're landing without an attack, then you just stuff their landing frames, chase their tech, etc., etc. Landing with side-b with the intent to grab can be stuffed in the same way (even if you land the grab, if they have a hitbox out it'll just pop Bowser out of the grab animation).

If you're landing with an attack, then the way to punish is to avoid the attack (either by spacing, shield, or spotdodging) and then punish the lag of the attack. However, if there's very little to no lag and if the attack is spaced properly (for example, C. Falcon's bair) then it's very difficult if not impossible to punish. Having an option where you can attack them and escape on whiff/block makes it way, way easier to land.

But all of Bowser's landing attacks are unsafe on whiff/block. Almost all of those options have enough lag that opponents can outright use a kill move out of shield/on whiff. Listing all the unsafe ways to land separately doesn't make sense to me, they're all unsafe ways to land -- using them requires a read or negligence on your opponents' parts.

 

[Big Sean]

a stray cat
I agree that at the first level of yomi our best bet is to just not attack, which sucks, but like you said there are still things they have to guess, with tech chasing. They have to make some sort of read, which could be "oh this guy is going to use his second jump" or "he will fast fall -> roll last second." Many of their options cover a lot of our options which sucks, but we always have a way out. I think the interesting thing is that if they ever have a "hard read" our unsafe options can come into the mix. For instance if they read that we will fast fall -> shield, they may opt to dash grab. Now dair is a possibility.

Do they have an advantage while underneath us? Definitely. Do they have 1 option that can beat all of our options? Unlikely. There is still a large tree of possibilities under the umbrella of "we both know i'm not going to attack last second."

I also wouldn't say that anyone's attack is difficult to punish. If I knew for a fact that Captain Falcon was going to land with a bair, I would dashing shield right underneath him and get a guaranteed fortress OOS. It's still an incredibly powerful option and I totally wish I had it, but it's not a get out of jail free card.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This is awkward. I was talking about Side B as an alternative to teching since we're still getting Bowser mains who are slow on the uptake when it comes to this game changing ability of his. My post actually started as a playful exasperation about how I'm tired of having to mention this to other players and that my posts on Smashboards are clearly broadcasted through a microphone that is loud and clear enough for everybody to have heard and understood me. Then I decided the joke was too personable.

But, "Bowser's issues with landing" quickly became Bowser's issues with avoiding juggles and avoiding the classic Dthrow followups. In other words, scenarios in which he couldn't tech the ground since he never reaches it. These are a different issue that I'm truly sorry if you got mixed up based on my wording and context. The Side B landing is more conventional at points where your opponent doesn't jump up to hit you, but instead is dashing toward your point of landing for the classic tech chase. Any move with a non vertical angle that hits us far, but not far enough for us to be offstage. At this point, many inexperienced Bowsers choose to Fair or Dair their attacker on a gamble, get punished, and the rest of us are to say "well, what did you think would happen?" Other characters like Sheik, Fox, Link, the Mario Bros., Diddy, and many many more have moves that are almost safe on block provided they are spaced far enough away from shield grabs. If they had Bowser's Side B, they wouldn't need it as much as we do.

 

[S_B]

You only need to land with the side-b if you're in tumble (and so you do it as late as possible in place of a tech), or mean to grab them with your side-b. Otherwise all it does is lock you into up to 50 frames of commitment in the air.

If you land while executing it, you can act instantly, negating any frame lag.

And let's be honest, there's nothing else you should be doing as you're landing because anything else is just going to leave you on the ground, essentially wearing a "Hit Me" sign.

I guess you can try for a hard read, but only if you're going to survive the punish if you fail.

If they had Bowser's Side B, they wouldn't need it as much as we do.

Thing is (and I believe it was mentioned just earlier in this thread or another in the Bowser forum), the decreased hitbox size of klaw from Brawl means that you have to be far more adjacent to an opponent to catch them with it (whereas you could klaw the tip of their head in Brawl and get them).

This means that, no matter how Bowser chooses to land, it's not hard for an opponent to punish it. You can see Fair coming and you can swat anything else Bowser does.

Honestly, I'm fine with Bowser having this weakness. He's meant to be played as a fortress. I'd just rather he had a few more things going for him that made him harder to pry off the stage in the first place (like a working tough guy mechanic).

 

[Cronoc]

Honestly, I'm fine with Bowser having this weakness. He's meant to be played as a fortress. I'd just rather he had a few more things going for him that made him harder to pry off the stage in the first place (like a working tough guy mechanic).

In my mind, working tough guy would be "no normal moves will knock Bowser into the air until 35-40%." Or at least making that the case for jab combos. Really stupid how tough guy works for some jab combos (Sheik/Little Mac) and not for others (Fox and tons of others) because the jab combo takes Bowser slightly off the ground.

 

[S_B]

In my mind, working tough guy would be "no normal moves will knock Bowser into the air until 35-40%." Or at least making that the case for jab combos. Really stupid how tough guy works for some jab combos (Sheik/Little Mac) and not for others (Fox and tons of others) because the jab combo takes Bowser slightly off the ground.

And that's exactly how it should be. I'm not sure why it works off of extremely arbitrary percentages instead of a sliding scale.

Even if it was something like Bowser being nearly unflinchable until he hits 10%, that alone would be extremely helpful...

 

[Big Sean]

And that's exactly how it should be. I'm not sure why it works off of extremely arbitrary percentages instead of a sliding scale.

Even if it was something like Bowser being nearly unflinchable until he hits 10%, that alone would be extremely helpful...

I think I heard someone say it's weight based. So it's not like a unique mechanic for bowser, but rather a side result of the physics system and Bowser being so heavy.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think I heard someone say it's weight based. So it's not like a unique mechanic for bowser, but rather a side result of the physics system and Bowser being so heavy.

Nope. It's unique to Bowser and knockback based. Everything that effects knockback effects the range at which Bowser could armor a move if ever. Move staling, rage, Bowser being at a higher percentage, Bowser charging a smash attack, etc.

Edit: Furthermore, the crouching tough guy is probably just knockback scaled down due to crouch cancelling now that I think about it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yet Sheik's needles completely negate Tough Guy and Needles pop up everyone at the same height. A pissy attack like that should let Bowser tank it just fine.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I was reluctant to watch Zero's video on Bowser. "This is going to be crap" I said. But I decided to give it a shot.
Maybe he'd reveal some super secret bowser tech that no one knew about?

No?

Okay I should just pick shiek then...

Right, Zero videos are crap

 

[a stray cat]

This is awkward. I was talking about Side B as an alternative to teching since we're still getting Bowser mains who are slow on the uptake when it comes to this game changing ability of his. My post actually started as a playful exasperation about how I'm tired of having to mention this to other players and that my posts on Smashboards are clearly broadcasted through a microphone that is loud and clear enough for everybody to have heard and understood me. Then I decided the joke was too personable.

But, "Bowser's issues with landing" quickly became Bowser's issues with avoiding juggles and avoiding the classic Dthrow followups. In other words, scenarios in which he couldn't tech the ground since he never reaches it. These are a different issue that I'm truly sorry if you got mixed up based on my wording and context. The Side B landing is more conventional at points where your opponent doesn't jump up to hit you, but instead is dashing toward your point of landing for the classic tech chase. Any move with a non vertical angle that hits us far, but not far enough for us to be offstage. At this point, many inexperienced Bowsers choose to Fair or Dair their attacker on a gamble, get punished, and the rest of us are to say "well, what did you think would happen?" Other characters like Sheik, Fox, Link, the Mario Bros., Diddy, and many many more have moves that are almost safe on block provided they are spaced far enough away from shield grabs. If they had Bowser's Side B, they wouldn't need it as much as we do.

I missed the implied /s. My b.

 

[Cronoc]

I was reluctant to watch Zero's video on Bowser. "This is going to be crap" I said. But I decided to give it a shot.
Maybe he'd reveal some super secret bowser tech that no one knew about?

No?

Okay I should just pick shiek then...

Right, Zero videos are crap

Ha Zero seems like an alright guy but most of his videos are the same - him talking over tournament footage involving the character being discussed. He rarely gives insight so much as states his opinion, stream of consciousness style. He set himself up for a video production schedule that I don't think he was prepared to create high quality videos for (3 a week), and I think the lesser success of his more highly edited videos put him off doing them. But really, I'm happy if Bowser's perceived reputation can somehow filter to the team working on game patches. We could use some buffs. If Charizard and DK can get them, so can we. Even some small changes to frame data would make a huge difference. Fingers crossed for the 30th...

Everyone should give Sheik a try, I agree with Zero there. Play Sheik and you'll quickly recognize the power of her toolset - try to get good with Sheik and you'll find that good Sheik play demands a lot of you as a player, and things that are safe on paper don't always work out that way in actual matches. Sheik doesn't elevate the player any more than the player elevates him or herself. IMO, of course.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can't stand playing as Sheik. Has so much utility and flexibility compared to 80% of the roster that it disgusts me. Don't get me started on Customs either.

And it isn't Bowser.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've decided to play Sheik vs Link players because I apparently suck at that match up as Bowser.

But I comfortably 2 stock them with Sheik.

Sooooo...

 

[Jerodak]

I feel that whoever chooses to play any character for whatever reason, is that person's business. No matter who they pick, or for what reason, I believe a player should be allowed to just choose who they want.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I feel that whoever chooses to play any character for whatever reason, is that person's business. No matter who they pick, or for what reason, I believe a player should be allowed to just choose who they want.

I agree 100%.

It's just with Bowser the whole playstyle is by far the one that appeals to me the most.

So much that I look through the entire roster get to Bowser and go

 

[Jerodak]

Oh man, that song is so old, I remember this place called "Hoop Willabe's" (sp?) and they often played that song. It was an arcade/putput place. Similar to Chuckee cheese or adventure landing. The mascot was this old uncle sam looking guy.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Welp... I told my self I would only write text walls on the charizard boards...

I'll just... go ahead and put everything into a spoiler. For those people who don't want to hear me rant on >~>

Spoiler: Rant Stuff

I was originally going to play shiek when the game first came out. This was back when any notion of a smash 4 tier list didn't exist.

I liked her at first, but quickly came to realize that the character just didn't feel substantial enough.

I ran into the same problem with Lucario where the character was obviously good, but it would sometimes feel like I was slapping my opponents with a wet noodle.

I agree that most players should give shiek a shot if they're looking to get into tournament play, but that nimble yet weak archetype doesn't always fit everyone.

I've legitimately tried to pick up a high tier multiple times, but none of them stuck. The light speeder playstyle that most high/top tiers have just isn't for me.

Give me a slow but heavy hitter anyday. I love the satisfaction of launching my opponents into orbit if I land the hard punish. Bowser, and most heavies for that matter aren't designed to beat the character in front of them. They're designed to punish weaknesses in the other player. Opponent has a roll habit? Fsmash. Dead at 30% Opponent approaching unsafely from the air? Usmash. Dead at 50%.

Bowser is one of those characters that can't be ranked that easily this early into the meta. Maybe as the high tiers get better, and players start playing smarter they'll stop falling for Bowser's gimmicks, and the character will become obsolete, as most non-bowsers seem to think.

Or maybe as Bowser players optimize their punish game, they'll be able to land harder reads off of much smaller mistakes. As they optimize their spacing game, they learn how to out range and beat out would-be safe attacks. *cough* shiek fair

...Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that speedsters aren't for everyone. Not everyone can play to that playstyle and enjoy it enough to stick with it.

And for those few players who would rather take a slower, more analytical approach to the game, a more powerful character like Bowser might work better for them, despite the character itself being objectively worse.

People should stop disregarding this fact. The tier of your character isn't the only thing that determines how difficult your tournament life will be. How much you can devote yourself to your character is just as, if not more important.

So it irks me when a person with a huge amount of influence over the smash community goes around telling people "Don't pick this character, pick this top tier instead".

They aren't going to be any better off! Maybe they'll beat a few more people in the short run, but when the drive to push their character runs out then what?

Personally, when i realized this fact and stopped messing around with characters in the higher tiers that didn't fit me, I ended up improving much more quickly. I can beat a link player more easily with Bowser than i can with, say, Fox. Sure, it's because my bowser is better, but the amount of effort it would've take for me to train fox to the same level would've been much greater. Not to mention less enjoyable.

Fun is a form of motivation. If you like a character, you're willing to do more things with it. Think outside the box. Push the character harder. Improve faster. This "pick a top tier" mentality needs to die.

tl;dr I don't agree with the message of ZeRo's video. Players whould pick who they like. If he had instead said "Don't pick bowser for tournaments unless you're willing to put in X amount of work" or something, then sure, that's fine. But the video as it is is just garbage.

/end rant

 

[MagiusNecros]

Welp... I told my self I would only write text walls on the charizard boards...

I'll just... go ahead and put everything into a spoiler. For those people who don't want to hear me rant on >~>

Spoiler: Rant Stuff

I was originally going to play shiek when the game first came out. This was back when any notion of a smash 4 tier list didn't exist.

I liked her at first, but quickly came to realize that the character just didn't feel substantial enough.

I ran into the same problem with Lucario where the character was obviously good, but it would sometimes feel like I was slapping my opponents with a wet noodle.

I agree that most players should give shiek a shot if they're looking to get into tournament play, but that nimble yet weak archetype doesn't always fit everyone.

I've legitimately tried to pick up a high tier multiple times, but none of them stuck. The light speeder playstyle that most high/top tiers have just isn't for me.

Give me a slow but heavy hitter anyday. I love the satisfaction of launching my opponents into orbit if I land the hard punish. Bowser, and most heavies for that matter aren't designed to beat the character in front of them. They're designed to punish weaknesses in the other player. Opponent has a roll habit? Fsmash. Dead at 30% Opponent approaching unsafely from the air? Usmash. Dead at 50%.

Bowser is one of those characters that can't be ranked that easily this early into the meta. Maybe as the high tiers get better, and players start playing smarter they'll stop falling for Bowser's gimmicks, and the character will become obsolete, as most non-bowsers seem to think.

Or maybe as Bowser players optimize their punish game, they'll be able to land harder reads off of much smaller mistakes. As they optimize their spacing game, they learn how to out range and beat out would-be safe attacks. *cough* shiek fair

...Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that speedsters aren't for everyone. Not everyone can play to that playstyle and enjoy it enough to stick with it.

And for those few players who would rather take a slower, more analytical approach to the game, a more powerful character like Bowser might work better for them, despite the character itself being objectively worse.

People should stop disregarding this fact. The tier of your character isn't the only thing that determines how difficult your tournament life will be. How much you can devote yourself to your character is just as, if not more important.

So it irks me when a person with a huge amount of influence over the smash community goes around telling people "Don't pick this character, pick this top tier instead".

They aren't going to be any better off! Maybe they'll beat a few more people in the short run, but when the drive to push their character runs out then what?

Personally, when i realized this fact and stopped messing around with characters in the higher tiers that didn't fit me, I ended up improving much more quickly. I can beat a link player more easily with Bowser than i can with, say, Fox. Sure, it's because my bowser is better, but the amount of effort it would've take for me to train fox to the same level would've been much greater. Not to mention less enjoyable.

Fun is a form of motivation. If you like a character, you're willing to do more things with it. Think outside the box. Push the character harder. Improve faster. This "pick a top tier" mentality needs to die.

tl;dr I don't agree with the message of ZeRo's video. Players whould pick who they like. If he had instead said "Don't pick bowser for tournaments unless you're willing to put in X amount of work" or something, then sure, that's fine. But the video as it is is just garbage.

/end rant

Good post. Team Lizard's forever.

 

[S_B]

Welp... I told my self I would only write text walls on the charizard boards...

I'll just... go ahead and put everything into a spoiler. For those people who don't want to hear me rant on >~>

Spoiler: Rant Stuff

I was originally going to play shiek when the game first came out. This was back when any notion of a smash 4 tier list didn't exist.

I liked her at first, but quickly came to realize that the character just didn't feel substantial enough.

I ran into the same problem with Lucario where the character was obviously good, but it would sometimes feel like I was slapping my opponents with a wet noodle.

I agree that most players should give shiek a shot if they're looking to get into tournament play, but that nimble yet weak archetype doesn't always fit everyone.

I've legitimately tried to pick up a high tier multiple times, but none of them stuck. The light speeder playstyle that most high/top tiers have just isn't for me.

Give me a slow but heavy hitter anyday. I love the satisfaction of launching my opponents into orbit if I land the hard punish. Bowser, and most heavies for that matter aren't designed to beat the character in front of them. They're designed to punish weaknesses in the other player. Opponent has a roll habit? Fsmash. Dead at 30% Opponent approaching unsafely from the air? Usmash. Dead at 50%.

Bowser is one of those characters that can't be ranked that easily this early into the meta. Maybe as the high tiers get better, and players start playing smarter they'll stop falling for Bowser's gimmicks, and the character will become obsolete, as most non-bowsers seem to think.

Or maybe as Bowser players optimize their punish game, they'll be able to land harder reads off of much smaller mistakes. As they optimize their spacing game, they learn how to out range and beat out would-be safe attacks. *cough* shiek fair

...Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that speedsters aren't for everyone. Not everyone can play to that playstyle and enjoy it enough to stick with it.

And for those few players who would rather take a slower, more analytical approach to the game, a more powerful character like Bowser might work better for them, despite the character itself being objectively worse.

People should stop disregarding this fact. The tier of your character isn't the only thing that determines how difficult your tournament life will be. How much you can devote yourself to your character is just as, if not more important.

So it irks me when a person with a huge amount of influence over the smash community goes around telling people "Don't pick this character, pick this top tier instead".

They aren't going to be any better off! Maybe they'll beat a few more people in the short run, but when the drive to push their character runs out then what?

Personally, when i realized this fact and stopped messing around with characters in the higher tiers that didn't fit me, I ended up improving much more quickly. I can beat a link player more easily with Bowser than i can with, say, Fox. Sure, it's because my bowser is better, but the amount of effort it would've take for me to train fox to the same level would've been much greater. Not to mention less enjoyable.

Fun is a form of motivation. If you like a character, you're willing to do more things with it. Think outside the box. Push the character harder. Improve faster. This "pick a top tier" mentality needs to die.

tl;dr I don't agree with the message of ZeRo's video. Players whould pick who they like. If he had instead said "Don't pick bowser for tournaments unless you're willing to put in X amount of work" or something, then sure, that's fine. But the video as it is is just garbage.

/end rant

TBH, I WANT people to pick Sheik. I want everyone and their goddamn mother playing Sheik, especially in tournaments in Japan where Sakurai seems to actually pay attention.

The more Sheik spam we see in For Glory and Japanese tourneys, the faster Sheik will get the nerf.

And honestly, the only nerf Sheik REALLY needs is a few more frames of endlag on Fair and maybe reducing needle travel distance.

 

[Jerodak]

Edit: whoops, big mistake there, but good points. Grizzlpaw

 

[Hitman JT]

I play Sheik occasionally to give my friends the match-up practice, but damn she isn't satisfying to use at all. Sure, it's nice being able to press lots of buttons and get away with it...it's just a shame that all those buttons have an impact equivalent to snowfall on Mt. Everest.

 

[Cronoc]

Time for some multi-quotin'.

I can't stand playing as Sheik. Has so much utility and flexibility compared to 80% of the roster that it disgusts me. Don't get me started on Customs either.

And it isn't Bowser.

Ha I have a problem with Sheik not being Bowser also

I've decided to play Sheik vs Link players because I apparently suck at that match up as Bowser.

But I comfortably 2 stock them with Sheik.

Sooooo...

I lost to a Toon Link on for glory earlier tonight, switched to Mewtwo and won easily. This in itself doesn't mean much besides that Bowser vs multiple projectiles in an online environment is rough.

Welp... I told my self I would only write text walls on the charizard boards...

I'll just... go ahead and put everything into a spoiler. For those people who don't want to hear me rant on >~>

Spoiler: Rant Stuff

I was originally going to play shiek when the game first came out. This was back when any notion of a smash 4 tier list didn't exist.

I liked her at first, but quickly came to realize that the character just didn't feel substantial enough.

I ran into the same problem with Lucario where the character was obviously good, but it would sometimes feel like I was slapping my opponents with a wet noodle.

I agree that most players should give shiek a shot if they're looking to get into tournament play, but that nimble yet weak archetype doesn't always fit everyone.

I've legitimately tried to pick up a high tier multiple times, but none of them stuck. The light speeder playstyle that most high/top tiers have just isn't for me.

Give me a slow but heavy hitter anyday. I love the satisfaction of launching my opponents into orbit if I land the hard punish. Bowser, and most heavies for that matter aren't designed to beat the character in front of them. They're designed to punish weaknesses in the other player. Opponent has a roll habit? Fsmash. Dead at 30% Opponent approaching unsafely from the air? Usmash. Dead at 50%.

Bowser is one of those characters that can't be ranked that easily this early into the meta. Maybe as the high tiers get better, and players start playing smarter they'll stop falling for Bowser's gimmicks, and the character will become obsolete, as most non-bowsers seem to think.

Or maybe as Bowser players optimize their punish game, they'll be able to land harder reads off of much smaller mistakes. As they optimize their spacing game, they learn how to out range and beat out would-be safe attacks. *cough* shiek fair

...Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that speedsters aren't for everyone. Not everyone can play to that playstyle and enjoy it enough to stick with it.

And for those few players who would rather take a slower, more analytical approach to the game, a more powerful character like Bowser might work better for them, despite the character itself being objectively worse.

People should stop disregarding this fact. The tier of your character isn't the only thing that determines how difficult your tournament life will be. How much you can devote yourself to your character is just as, if not more important.

So it irks me when a person with a huge amount of influence over the smash community goes around telling people "Don't pick this character, pick this top tier instead".

They aren't going to be any better off! Maybe they'll beat a few more people in the short run, but when the drive to push their character runs out then what?

Personally, when i realized this fact and stopped messing around with characters in the higher tiers that didn't fit me, I ended up improving much more quickly. I can beat a link player more easily with Bowser than i can with, say, Fox. Sure, it's because my bowser is better, but the amount of effort it would've take for me to train fox to the same level would've been much greater. Not to mention less enjoyable.

Fun is a form of motivation. If you like a character, you're willing to do more things with it. Think outside the box. Push the character harder. Improve faster. This "pick a top tier" mentality needs to die.

tl;dr I don't agree with the message of ZeRo's video. Players whould pick who they like. If he had instead said "Don't pick bowser for tournaments unless you're willing to put in X amount of work" or something, then sure, that's fine. But the video as it is is just garbage.

/end rant

I should say, I think that people should try Sheik out themselves so they know what the character is like and have some experience with her move-set. Not that they should necessarily do more than that. Some understanding of how Sheik works, what her options are, what's safe and not safe will help any competitive player. And it'd cut out some of the Sheik complaining. As I've said in a different forum community, I've never been beaten by a Sheik that wasn't also outplaying me - they deserved to win. If I hear that ping that bouncing fish makes and don't air dodge or shield, that's on me. Personally, when it comes to high tiers, I find much more complain about with the rest of the top 5 characters than with Sheik.

I completely agree with your reasoning for why Sheik and other fast characters aren't satisfying. Bowser's hits are so meaty, I love the meaty sound and hit-stop when I connect a bair, or when I grab my opponent in what I know will be a killing klaw and the other player has to suffer through the whole animation, when I usmash into someone's dair, get a Bowser bomb hit or shield break... just the weight of a standard ftilt is satisfying. I like characters that hit hard, which are often grapplers. I loved playing Iron Tager in Blazblue, who had perhaps the most satisfying command throws ever. People would get hit with his most powerful throw, and not only were they about to lose more than half their life bar (2/3rds of it on some characters), they had to sit and watch the whole animation play out. Bowser's klaw is the closest it gets to that in Smash 4.

So it is too bad that generally the faster characters are the best in this game. Zero strikes me as the kind of person who is dedicated enough to play a character he doesn't have affinity with for competitive reasons. Because he is able to do it, he assumes others can too. And we can, to some extent. But we're not Zero, going out and attempting to make a living off of playing this game. I went through a 2 or 3 week phase where I thought I would try and get good with Sheik because Bowser wasn't cutting it. In the end, I just wasn't having fun and was ready to stop playing the game. Zero doesn't come at it that way though - it's not a question of if it's fun anymore, he simply has to win. He has characters he plays for fun, but when it's tournament time he'll play the character that gives him the best results. At his level, he has to treat it like a job. So when he gives competitive advice and says "pick Sheik," it makes perfect sense to him because of his lifestyle. Though honestly I think the comment is somewhat tongue in cheek also.

In the end we have fun and play, or we don't and stop playing. Unless we're treating it like a job, which I certainly don't. I go into for glory and laugh in disbelief at the combos I create on people with Bowser. Every step of the way my opponent has to help me make those combos. I take an educated guess about their next move and when it all comes together it's magical. There are so many matches where if the person was sitting next to me I would be saying "I'm so sorry about what I just did to you..." Man, it's great. For the moment, that's enough for me.

I play Sheik occasionally to give my friends the match-up practice, but damn she isn't satisfying to use at all. Sure, it's nice being able to press lots of buttons and get away with it...it's just a shame that all those buttons have an impact equivalent to snowfall on Mt. Everest.

Sheik can combo Bowser for 26%, Bowser can make it up with two hits. I know which side I like better. But I still play Sheik occasionally just to see what I can get away with. I find it hilarious that a couple good combos and some needles from Sheik demoralizes people online so badly they leave after a match, but getting hit by Bowser's utilt into utilt into nair into uair, and being caught on their landing by a usmash or klaw makes people think "screw that, we're doing this again!" and rematch me. Maybe Sheik just looks too serious as a character. Just her standing stance makes her look so pro...

 

[Cassius.]

People's motivation for playing Smash and playing games in general changes over time, man. It is really idealistic to say that people should only go for what they enjoy. If you ask people if they enjoy the character they're playing, they will probably say yes, but those answers will be heavily skewed if they find themselves happily placing in the higher end of their tournaments. Obviously if you enjoy a character, you will be more inclined to stick around and figure out what he has to offer--no one can argue that. People enjoy playing x, but a lot of those exact same people also enjoy winning. If those don't overlap, sometimes players tend to have a conflict of interest.

It's very hard to abandon and discard that concept once you've tasted it (victory, high placements). At that point, people will say, and you may realize that you're actively doing yourself a disservice if you're picking a bad or weaker character due to enjoyment. This entire weekend I had a small discussion on Twitter. I felt like I was wasting my time playing Bowser. But I'm at a standstill, because Bowser is the only character I enjoy using.

I've been dealing with that for years now, really. And to be quite honest, the pattern I had in Brawl is repeating itself where Bowser really is the only mediocre/bad character I use in the game. Every other character I play is either top tier or damn near close to it LOL

I've played other fighting games, and all of the characters I enjoy playing there are actually ridiculous in those games. I come back to Bowser, and he's nowhere near that. It's quite unfortunate and out of my control. I don't actively play mid tier o

I know that I don't have much energy left; if Bowser doesn't receive anything substantially helpful in the coming months or years, I may end up using him a lot less. I've been using him for way, way, way, way, way too long; and he's been mediocre for even longer. It doesn't justify any of this. Pretty much everything he's received or had added to him were changes that were either horrible, or in the grand scheme of things don't help. Sure, this is Bowser's best version, but does that really mean as much as we thought it did?

I really am not too fond of the video Zero made or any of his content at all (aka "ayo Dre, stick to producing"; Zero, just stick to playing the game.); I share the sentiments that a lot of you do. The only thing I probably agree with in that entire video is that Bowser currently has no (clearly visible) place in the current meta. Definitely not saying it as negatively as Zero put it. No matter how you slice it, that does not mean that he's not viable, but he really is a...unique pick, to say the absolute least.

I would never under any circumstance tell any of you or someone else to stop playing a character. Whoever you choose is absolutely up to you, but everyone's reasons for doing anything in this game are different.

Part of me kind of wishes I stopped using Bowser a few years ago. I probably wouldn't have this personal problem that I'm dealing with now, and if I came back to him in this game, everything would have been renewed.

ps I also really hate smash 4 and believe that either bowser shouldn't have to work as hard to do dumb **** or everyone else should work harder to execute that bleh blah bah humbug make my character stupendous pimp my bowser etc

I just need to shut up. I probably just need to play a new character for a while. Even though I wrote a whole essay I know I'm probably not dropping Bowser lol. It's also only the first year of Smash 4, so I don't care too much. I'm just in an abusive relationship!!

edit: I've been quiet for a while because I really had nothing to say + been busy with college. I went to two tournaments this past weekend. Got 3rd/60 at one (All Bowser, then got sent to losers and used Sheik/Mario for the rest) and 5th/25 at the other going all Bowser. A dude I lost to 3-2 with Sheik I ended up having a much easier time with using Bowser instead the next day. Which re-sparked my hope for using bowser more...which, I didn't want, because that means that I'm actually amazing with Bowser and should not stop using him.

fun fact: upstate New York is one of probably 2 regions that still runs customs, so all of you who swoon over custom Bowser--come here and meet me, and watch me lose my mind/hair over this ****. I obviously only use default bowser because I can't function without Klaw as we're all aware of.

 

[S_B]

I tried playing Zelda the other day after watching a combo video, and even though I was able to pull off what's arguably her nastiest combo (dtilt to sweetspotted fair) a few times, it's just...not satisfying.

The big hits of heavies are just more fun to watch and a helluva lot more fun to DO. Smashing someone's shield at the edge of the stage and watching them float helplessly into oblivion is just too awesome, as is Bowserciding someone when I have the stock lead.

I think we shouldn't give up, either. I think there's more to learn about Bowser in this game than we yet know. One of the big problems is that I feel like most players are still trying to play this as though it was Melee, which means that players gravitate toward the safest and/or quickest characters, thus ignoring a lot of the potential of other characters that have been lackluster in previous SSB games.

But look at what M2K is doing with DK now. All it takes is one tweak in a patch and Bowser could go from struggling to stuffing Sheik players (and even M2K expects that Sheik will get nerfed at some point soon, which is why he's investing time into SSB4 at all).

Bowser may very well work best as a "conditioning" character because with jab followup shenanigans, it's literally possible to take a stock depending upon how we've conditioned our opponent to react at that time. I've seen some people in this thread making exceptional use of this in tournaments, and it works well because we force the opponent to play "rock, paper, scissors" with EVERY jab we land, and that's awesome.

So I wouldn't go quitting on Bowser just yet. The meta is just about to turn 1 year old, AND the game is still receiving regular balance patches. If there was ever a SSB game where Bowser actually has the chance to shine, it's this one.

 

[Big Sean]

One thing that will really help the Bowser meta is when players start really optimizing their punishes. There are so many Bowser Bomb opportunities that we leave behind. Attacking too high on the shield? Spot dodged a grab? Shielded a dash attack? Shielded a smash? Even against safe players we should be getting a few Bowser bombs a match. If we regularly got 24% punishes on people, Bowser would be a lot scarier of a character. Remember it's only 1 frame slower than our tilts, so if you can get an ftilt punish, you can almost certainly get a Bowser Bomb.

When I look at videos of Bowsers lately I see Bowsers getting more conservative with their punishes, not more.

 

[S_B]

One thing that will really help the Bowser meta is when players start really optimizing their punishes. There are so many Bowser Bomb opportunities that we leave behind. Attacking too high on the shield? Spot dodged a grab? Shielded a dash attack? Shielded a smash? Even against safe players we should be getting a few Bowser bombs a match. If we regularly got 24% punishes on people, Bowser would be a lot scarier of a character. Remember it's only 1 frame slower than our tilts, so if you can get an ftilt punish, you can almost certainly get a Bowser Bomb.

When I look at videos of Bowsers lately I see Bowsers getting more conservative with their punishes, not more.

That's the other thing I've been thinking about: more punishes.

I can't help but feel like we're missing out on opportunities to use bomb and especially Fsmash, since these are our some of our most potent stock-takers.

If we can tap into the "zen of the dropkick," I think we'd be doing that much better.

You know, I watched Cassius' video against Zelda in the other thread and, having recently tried playing Zelda, it made me realize something: having even briefly played around with Zelda, I found myself knowing what she was going to do nearly every time she went at him.

Maybe that's Zelda's lack of options, but the question needs to be asked: how much of other characters do we Bowser mains try out? Do we know their strengths and weaknesses from using them?

My guess is Cass did because I saw him make some reads based around the ending lag from Zelda's F/Bair used too close to the ground (or maybe he was expecting lag anyway).

But yeah, we should all be playing as our worst matchups on occasion to see where we feel the blindspots with the characters are. And maybe everyone is already doing this, but I should definitely do it some more, myself...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think we need to stall a fight and simply observe our opponent and look for attack patterns and capitalize on them.

 

[Cronoc]

One thing that will really help the Bowser meta is when players start really optimizing their punishes. There are so many Bowser Bomb opportunities that we leave behind. Attacking too high on the shield? Spot dodged a grab? Shielded a dash attack? Shielded a smash? Even against safe players we should be getting a few Bowser bombs a match. If we regularly got 24% punishes on people, Bowser would be a lot scarier of a character. Remember it's only 1 frame slower than our tilts, so if you can get an ftilt punish, you can almost certainly get a Bowser Bomb.

When I look at videos of Bowsers lately I see Bowsers getting more conservative with their punishes, not more.

The problem with Bowser bomb is it's a special attack. There are tricks to get normal attacks out more quickly out of shield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET1PZwOJ6mU). BB isn't jump cancelable either. So the main issue with Bowser bomb is not that it's so much slower in isolation, but that other attacks can start out of shield faster. I'll admit I often end up spot dodging accidentally when trying to drop shield into bomb. That much can be fixed, and it's still an option on perfect shield, but it has to be used depending on the situation, it can't be a reflexive move like OOS fortress or perfect shield to ftilt/utilt that covers more options.

Edit: while I'm thinking of it, though it's hard to test by myself, I think we should all be boost grabbing from a run (dash attack canceled grab). Subjectively it seems to stop a lot of typical grab whiffs. This is something I started doing when I picked up Sheik, but it seems to work for any character.

 

[Big Sean]

Cronoc Yeah your'e definitely right. Still there's a lot of opportunities we can drop shield and get a tilt out to punish. Those are the same situations we should be considering bowser bomb instead.

 

[Jerodak]

You know, pparry works just fine with specials too. You can, and likely should, be OSing down b when you're looking for it, unless you already have a free punish.

That way, it only comes out when your opponent triggers the parry, effectively increasing the chance for it to work which makes it more effective in neutral. This, among a few other reasons is why I feel that Bowser will perform at least slightly better in a pparry/os meta.

 

[Cronoc]

You know, pparry works just fine with specials too. You can, and likely should, be OSing down b when you're looking for it, unless you already have a free punish.

That way, it only comes out when your opponent triggers the parry, effectively increasing the chance for it to work which makes it more effective in neutral. This, among a few other reasons is why I feel that Bowser will perform at least slightly better in a pparry/os meta.

Honestly I'm not sure I get what that video is saying entirely. Without a partner it's maddening to attempt to practice it against a CPU. I get how an attack comes out quickly after a perfect shield, I haven't quite gotten the part where an attack comes out instead of a grab on hit. I'm too annoyed by the CPU at the moment to continue trying. But yeah, perfect shield to Bowser bomb is a thing, it's in those cases I just have to treat the shield like something to tap, not hold, or I'm at risk of spotdodging instead of starting the bomb.

 

[MrEh]

fun fact: upstate New York is one of probably 2 regions that still runs customs, so all of you who swoon over custom Bowser--come here and meet me, and watch me lose my mind/hair over this ****. I obviously only use default bowser because I can't function without Klaw as we're all aware of.

I lost to 2 villagers in a row last monthly.

The pain is real for me.

 

[Jerodak]

Cronoc

It's because when your shield is hit, and you perfect shield, the shield drops faster because you bypass the frames where shield Is forced to stay up before it's released, and the shield release animation. So the shield is down by the time the game reads your a or b input and gives you an a or b move instead of grab, roll, or spotdodge.

 

[TheKingofKoopas]

fun fact: upstate New York is one of probably 2 regions that still runs customs, so all of you who swoon over custom Bowser--come here and meet me, and watch me lose my mind/hair over this ****. I obviously only use default bowser because I can't function without Klaw as we're all aware of.

Welp, I moved from upstate New York to Massachusetts, so

My college is hosting a local tournament tomorrow, and smaller student-run tournaments are on the rise. I'll finally be able to test my skills soon enough.