Social Bowser's Castle

[ZorkThedork]

Was watching your Bowser the other day, Zork. Didn't know you played Smash 4. Love what I saw!

Thanks man! Been playing Bowser since E3. I love smash 4!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Was using Bair Feint > Fsmash to great effect with a buddy today who plays at a competent level.

 

[Hitman JT]

2nd place at the monthly...

 

[MagiusNecros]

What character did you lose to?

 

[Hitman JT]

Spoiler

10characters

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well placing 2nd is pretty good for a Bowser.

 

[Big Sean]

@HitmanJT that's so awesome! @a stray cat and I have been getting top 8 and even top 3 at weeklies lately and we just keep performing better and better. It's crazy how the game is getting more mature and people are getting better and better, but Bowser's are winning even more! I think that means there's some potential here that not even we are seeing.

 

[ZorkThedork]

@HitmanJT that's so awesome! @a stray cat and I have been getting top 8 and even top 3 at weeklies lately and we just keep performing better and better. It's crazy how the game is getting more mature and people are getting better and better, but Bowser's are winning even more! I think that means there's some potential here that not even we are seeing.

Good stuff! for the past 30 days, I've placed between 9th-7th back and forth(7 tournaments) at the Fire and Dice weeklies/monthly all with Bowser(and tiny bit of Mii Sword), which tend to have around 60 attendees and feature about 4-7 SoCal PR players each time. Been making sure Fire and Dice knows my Bowser's fire!

 

[Big Sean]

So Zero just created a Bowser analysis video. Seems like he's been burned pretty hard from previously maining him .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2t87aYvpms

 

[Hitman JT]

@HitmanJT that's so awesome! @a stray cat and I have been getting top 8 and even top 3 at weeklies lately and we just keep performing better and better. It's crazy how the game is getting more mature and people are getting better and better, but Bowser's are winning even more! I think that means there's some potential here that not even we are seeing.

Gotta show em that this character ain't low tier. I've been hell-bent on it since day 1. Good stuff to you guys though, hope we cross paths one day.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So Zero just created a Bowser analysis video. Seems like he's been burned pretty hard from previously maining him .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2t87aYvpms

I like how the end message he gave was "Don't pick Bowser. Pick Sheik".

This guy.

 

[Big Sean]

I'll throw this out there, we have a super campy power ranked diddy that will literally never approach without a Banana. @a stray cat regularly takes games off him. According to ZerO this style hard counters Bowser and makes him unviable. If you can regularly beat one of the best diddy's in the nation with Bowser, I think the problem is a bit overblown.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zeros opinions are bad

 

[MagiusNecros]

Zeros opinions are bad

Well yeah he only talks about the negative and doesn't talk about what Bowser is good at really.

Comes off as a large Bowser you suck speech.

 

[xDizxy]

Love tasting your salty tears bowser mains.

 

[MagiusNecros]

There is a rumor those who ingest Bowser's salty tears get a stomach ache for weeks and their breath reeks of spicy hot curry.

And an insatiable desire to capture the Princess.

 

[xDizxy]

Well yeah he only talks about the negative and doesn't talk about what Bowser is good at really.

Comes off as a large Bowser you suck speech.

Zero thought was underrated when he's used a lot in tournaments lol.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Love tasting your salty tears bowser mains.

No one here is salty or crying.

 

[Jerodak]

@ KuroganeHammer Hey man, how fast do Smash attacks come out post charge?

18 frames for f-smash, 6 for up smash and 5 for down smash right?

Or did I read that other data incorrectly?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Zero's video was certainly bizarre. Like he really abhors the idea of playing Bowser. I don't watch all or even very much of his stuff, but I've never heard him badmouth a character and its player base as being not serious about winning. When I sit down to play somebody in a tournament, I never make judgements about their character or stage picks. If they're sitting there next to me, and it isn't round 1, they probably want to win just as bad as I do. This isn't Melee where I have to be offended some dude is sandbagging me by playing Roy or whatever.

Zero's logic for why Bowser is so bad is also worth calling into question. Just because we don't get long essays of buffs like Marth or Charizard each patch, doesn't mean we're falling by the wayside. It just means others are catching up. He also thinks none of our aerials autocancel, when both Fair and Bair do so from a short hop. And that we have no approach options. We have a fantastic running speed, a command grab, aforementioned autocancelled Fair, and Bowser Bomb. Why worry about being safe on shield when you can eat shields or attack from outside shieldgrab range? Quit getting angry about how Bowser isn't sheik and broaden your idea of what a good character could be.

Maybe we can get a better analysis of something else to do with Smash. Hey, Zero, what kinds of characters counter Luigi?

"Oh that's easy, just play anybody that's directly above him on the tier list"

Seriously, you gotta wonder how the best Smash 4 player in the world has such a dim tactical mind. I get that he's really good because of the year of consistent, strenous practice, but he's gotta have some level of pattern recognition in his matches with the best players, in order to tell us what would theoretically beat Luigi, Rosalina, or Sheik's gameplan. Some of us would kill for that amount of experience from battling in the trenches.

@ KuroganeHammer Hey man, how fast do Smash attacks come out post charge?

18 frames for f-smash, 6 for up smash and 5 for down smash right?

Or did I read that other data incorrectly?

The pastebin suggests all those numbers are correct, but I assume that's where you got the information initially and that doesn't help you.

 

[Jerodak]

On another note what does "cannot rebound" mean? I didn't see it in the glossary.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

On another note what does "cannot rebound" mean? I didn't see it in the glossary.

It means that the move when clanking with another move, won't do that clank animation and continues through.

 

[Jerodak]

It means that the move when clanking with another move, won't do that clank animation and continues through.

Ah, thought so, are those the only two non rebounding moves?

 

[MagiusNecros]

If anything what Zero said about Bowser will only help us have that disguise of being nonthreatening and then you get a great Bowser and players will crap their pants.

Personally in the analysis vid I didn't see a whole lot of Fortress punishes. I mean he took a huge risk with the turnaround running Klaw and actually landed it but yeah not enough Fortress cheese.

 

[Big Sean]

If anything what Zero said about Bowser will only help us have that disguise of being nonthreatening and then you get a great Bowser and players will crap their pants.

Personally in the analysis vid I didn't see a whole lot of Fortress punishes. I mean he took a huge risk with the turnaround running Klaw and actually landed it but yeah not enough Fortress cheese.

Fortress is awesome but terrible at the same time. It's our weakest punish and also one of our most punishable. The risk/reward just isn't there unless it's literally our only available punish.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ah, thought so, are those the only two non rebounding moves?

Pretty sure.

Also @ Zapp Branniglenn , fantastic post. Covers my thoughts exactly.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fortress is awesome but terrible at the same time. It's our weakest punish and also one of our most punishable. The risk/reward just isn't there unless it's literally our only available punish.

Well outside of jab all of our attacks could be awesome but also be equally terrible.

I really wish Fortress to ledge was still a thing.

Makes you appreciate Brawl Bowser a bit more.

 

[Big Sean]

Well outside of jab all of our attacks could be awesome but also be equally terrible.

I really wish Fortress to ledge was still a thing.

Makes you appreciate Brawl Bowser a bit more.

I guess what I mean to say is that a punish like Bowser Bomb has a good risk reward ratio. "If you hit you take the stock, if you whiff you lose yours. ". A punish like fortress has a terrible risk reward: "If you hit you get 8%, if you whiff you lose."

 

[ZorkThedork]

I'll throw this out there, we have a super campy power ranked diddy that will literally never approach without a Banana. @a stray cat regularly takes games off him. According to ZerO this style hard counters Bowser and makes him unviable. If you can regularly beat one of the best diddy's in the nation with Bowser, I think the problem is a bit overblown.

Same, I've taken SoCals great Diddy "Southpaw" to game 3 twice, but its extremely difficult to get in if Diddy zones with Popgun as he holds a Banana. He never had to approach.

 

[Jerodak]

Have you tried using the item toss OS that @Cassius. mentioned? Grabbing the peanuts and tossing them back might create gaps in his wall. Firebreath should erase the banana even when it's on the ground, unless you own it. Just look out for the flip, it can jump over the fire if it isn't angled up. (Hopefully we'll eventually be allowed to angle it during start-up.)

Of course, the best thing to do is probably just taking the peel when you can safely do it. Controlling the peel opens up more options, so learning to use it is smart play.

 

[Tri10]

I FREAKING MADE IT TO GAME THEORY'S LIVESTREAM AND PLAYED AS BOWSER

AND WON ON STREAM

 

[S_B]

So Zero just created a Bowser analysis video. Seems like he's been burned pretty hard from previously maining him .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2t87aYvpms

He's not exactly wrong about about a lot of what he said...

One of the key differences between Bowser and the 2nd heaviest character, DK, is that DK's aerial mobility allows him to move in and surprise people (plus DK has some options which are typically very safe, like Bair).

They gave Bowser the ground mobility as he's more of a true tank archetype, but the problem is that approaching many characters on the ground will get you spammed to death with projectiles. As Zero said, if Sheik decides to needle camp Bowser, it's basically GG at that point.

But the other problem is landing. Yes, Fair and Bair autocancel if you use them immediately on short hop, but using them right above the stage before landing makes you extremely punishable on landing, and in some cases, the aerial's hitbox doesn't even come out but you still go into the landing lag.

I feel like Bowser would be right where he needs to be with a working tough guy mechanic, but it just seems like they have no intention of modifying it at this point. If he's going to be a character meant to be played mostly on the ground (and it seems to be the consensus that he IS), then it should be just a bit harder to pry him OFF the ground in the first place.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If the design decision was to make Bowser a ground fighter they need to buff Tough Guy to make all small projectiles a non-issue.

Zero makes a good point that if we get comboed and can't find a way out there goes a stock.

We have no real projectiles and we fight a 2 front war of getting to thing and then hitting/punishing thing.

With the Klaw nerf we don't have a way to completely turn a fight around in our favor and also lose massive intimidation presence. Dash Slash subverts this a bit but if they want to push a no customs setting then competitive Bowser's are kinda screwed on that front.

No longer is it both players are on their last stock and the opponent thinking "Man if I **** up bad this Bowser could take the match with one grab."

Now it's more "All I need to do is let Bowser throw out an attack overcommit and I can take him out or if he Klaws me I can kill him with his own move".

And the intimidating presence we used to have actually masked a few of our weaknesses such as spikes and even the occasional gimp of being near the edge and instead forced our opponents to prefer to fight on our terms in the middle of the stage.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Spoiler

10characters

By any chance, you wouldn't happen to be, Le Troof perhaps?

If so, gotta say, that Up B alongside the edge of Battlefield was freaking great and hype AF. You put up an amazing fight at Xanadu against Pink Fresh and as a whole, keep up the good work fellow Koopa King~

 

[Hitman JT]

By any chance, you wouldn't happen to be, Le Troof perhaps?

If so, gotta say, that Up B alongside the edge of Battlefield was freaking great and hype AF. You put up an amazing fight at Xanadu against Pink Fresh and as a whole, keep up the good work fellow Koopa King~

That's me all right. Going under Battlefield is something I've been working on. Wouldn't recommend it in a high-stakes match though, too easy to **** up and die. And thank you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think I should be using Side B out of tumble more. I'm sick of being tech chased because of how far this character is.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think I should be using Side B out of tumble more. I'm sick of being tech chased because of how far this character is.

Uh huh. Accomplished Smash 4 players have some sort of practice tech chasing opponents, and are more than willing to put that practice to use on such a large character. But they're less equipped to deal with 6 frames of landing lag into jab or shield if you waited until moments before Bowser lands. It's surprising and a unique thing you have to be nervous about in the Bowser MU, since we can switch between this and teching. Heck, use the Side B at a moment sooner and you'll have a grabbox come out of a move that looks like an attack that the opponent wants to shield and punish. It'll also beat spot dodging and dodge rolls since we recover far faster than them. The timing is difficult since the move isn't well designed for landing on people, but just the threat of it makes opponents act predictably. Conditions them to rely on attack moves that we can beat with aerials or double jumping away from.

Bowser's got some issues, but I'll never agree with somebody that thinks Bowser has trouble landing in Smash 4. Practice the new tech and quit whining.

 

[S_B]

On another note, I'm going through and adding fellow Bowsers to my friend list at long last.

If I manage to win even one game against any of you, it'll be a Christmas miracle, heh...

 

[MagiusNecros]

On another note, I'm going through and adding fellow Bowsers to my friend list at long last.

If I manage to win even one game against any of you, it'll be a Christmas miracle, heh...

Send me a pm so I can add you.

 

[S_B]

NNID: TheRealSmashBro