Bowser MU discussion

[Jacob29]

Its the bait from ledge you have to worry about. Unless you can recover from high up your gonna have a bad time.

Luckily we also mess his recovery up too

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Nah, high up won't always help you, Ganon has a stellar u-air. And yeah, Ganon's recovery is so predictable it's not even funny.

 

[Jacob29]

I mean really high.. His chances of an u air are way less than a bair

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Okay, maybe not really high, but if Bowser already used his fortress he's screwed no matter when he comes down. Bowsers also have to watch out for u-air spikes, which can be executed much lower. I forgot to mention that, but all of his aerials are good for most edgeguarding except his n-air. Then on the other hand Bowser can just fortress off stage to prevent Ganon from recovering.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

It depends on mindgames, percentage and DI, really. You can recover vs Ganon even in low situations as long as you are smart enough.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

And reads, don't forget reads.

 

[Abeebo]

When you get knocked off by Ganon make sure to not use your mid-air jump if you're way above the stage, even if you're way out there. It's a waste. Wait until you're much closer. You'll find more options to avoid his dair attempts.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Yeah, that is a good idea with most edgeguarders, wait as long as you can to make your move and then recover. One of the reasons I alt Lucas, but that is besides the point. Still, watch out for b-airs, caution can be your friend.

 

[?.?]

So any tips against Roy/Marth? More looking for Roy as a friend mains him but info regarding both is appreciated. I honestly have NO idea what to do in the MU. Also yes I have other characters I can play but I want to be comfortable with every character I play.

 

[Mr. Bones]

So any tips against Roy/Marth? More looking for Roy as a friend mains him but info regarding both is appreciated. I honestly have NO idea what to do in the MU. Also yes I have other characters I can play but I want to be comfortable with every character I play.

Don't get grabbed. Getting grabbed is what makes the MU hard for Bowser. You can typically crouch-cancel to punish aerial approaches with D-tilts and go from there. Spaced F-tilts can be Marth's F-air, I'm sure it'd be the same for Roy? Flame Cancels can be pretty important in the MU to keep them off your back until you're ready to go in. Force them to swing and punish them immediately, but for the love of all that is sacred, don't get grabbed. lol

Edgeguarding is important. Down-B is an amazing edgeguard tool for predictable recoveries. There isn't much Marth can do about it when you time it right. Timing is key though. It's pretty simple, but if you mess it up it's a stock. If they're in kill percentages, you can down-b near the ledge and angle it so that you land on the stage just at the ledge instead of trying to risk a grab. The hitbox is pretty meaty so it works, again, with proper timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiRsKIUUWfo <--While this is a pretty janky friendly set, it's got some of my better decisions against Marth along with a lot of tech flops and silly SDs. But it was what I had handy at the moment.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ftilt is absolutely amazing vs. Marth/Roy.

I find that DIing down during the f-throw/d-throw mixup is more reliable than trying to guess in the 50/50 and getting CGed/dying for it.
Get them off-stage and just try your best to not let them back.

 

[deadjames]

Bowser's tippered fair outranges Marth's and Roy's, I feel as though that's important to note.

 

[?.?]

Bowser's tippered fair outranges Marth's and Roy's, I feel as though that's important to note.

Yeah I've noticed it, but other than that it's such a painful MU to learn. I literally asked my training buddy to play Mart(he plays roy) just to figure out what could work. I've also had trouble with Mewtwo for similar reasons, and I'm aware of snake but no one I know but me plays him.

 

[Jacob29]

After facing another Jiggs in a tournament who was actually pretty competent I had problems with just spam Bair.

Seems like it is fairly similar range to our fair making it really hard to do anything about...

 

[steelguttey]

Hey guys! The Olimar Matchup Discussion Thread is having its first week today and the topic is on Bowser! So if you have any knowledge about the good captain why don't you come on over?

 

[deadjames]

If Olimar has two or more purples, it's impossible for Bowser to approach.

 

[GoblinGamerKid]

Can Bowser really keep up the mu vs Sheik?
how do we approach sheik?
what should we do against it?
how to deal with sheik needle gimping our recovery?

 

[deadjames]

Imo the only way Bowser can beat Sheik is if the Sheik doesn't know the MU.

 

[steelguttey]

Hey guys! So the week of Bowser has just ended on the Olimar Matchup thread, here's what we got. (remember this is for olimar players, use this as you like)

Spoiler: Bowser

Character:

Stages: Final Destination, Smashville, avoid small stages.

Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 88%

Matchup Ratio: 7-3

Tips:

Fair bowser. Dead. Space well, grab him. The combo can start at 0 and go to 50 and more. Nair is p good etc. Bowser is not going to win, if you space his neutral game and olimar's DD is good enough to do this.

Bowser is big and fat and slow. You can combo him to oblivion. Add to this, the fact that Olimar can keep Bowser down and out once he's offstage because he can edge guard him with D-Air.

VS Bowser, small stages are probably bad. Hits up-b and his ledge attack are really good so it's hard to take control.

You want to out maneuver Bowser. He's big so it's not hard to keep yourself from dropping the combo or landing the kill. His armor isn't much of a problem either as you shouldn't be carelessly approaching Bowser in the first place.

also this week we're doing captain falcon so if you play that guy too then come on over

 

[Mr.Random]

Does anyone think Bowser has the potential to counter Spacies on small and medium stages? Sure they can camp him out on large stages but I feel his armor, gimps, and up b OoS could potentially make it +1. Has Kirk or Jorge ever fought good space animals?

 

[deadjames]

No, spacies still shut Bowser down regardless of the stage, don't confuse good punishes for a positive MU, Bowser still has to work a lot harder for his damage than any of the spacies do.

 

[Mr.Random]

Mind going into detail? Also are there any good Bowser vs. Spacies video's?

 

[Jacob29]

All I know is that it is pretty hard for us to get near Fox. If they dash dance properly we're going to find it hard getting close enough to actually hit them.

Sure we can edgeguard them fine, but at the very tip-top play levels I'm finding it hard to think when a Bowser will be able to easily get a spacie off the stage. Granted I am no professional but that seems to be the trend.

 

[Abeebo]

No, spacies still shut Bowser down regardless of the stage, don't confuse good punishes for a positive MU, Bowser still has to work a lot harder for his damage than any of the spacies do.

Agreed to a point. Bowser is still gonna wanna go to smaller stages for better pressure and earlier kills, but yes, you're gonna have to go super-meta, go out-of-body in mind and spirit, and outplay your opponent pretty hard if they can play a solid spacie. Their moveset is so much faster than the majority of Bowser's better options; their ability to stay almost glued to our massive body means that Bowser has a very difficult, if not impossible, time escaping proper shine pressure; their great laser properties forces Bowser to play even more cautiously and tediously which he does not want to do; everyone's jump is faster than Bowser's jump.

 

[deadjames]

Well Wolf's lasers aren't that much of a threat to Bowser, and Bowser can CC his and Fox's shines literally forever, so those are things to be aware of, but yeah the MUs still suck.

 

[Jacob29]

Ok so we can CC, but can we d-tilt their shines? Because if we can't then CCing a shine is genuinely useless, not as useless as crawling over bananas (because that is so close to being literally useless).

Whoo we can not move when they shine, but what about the up-smash? the grab? or any other follow-up from a shine.

It isn't even that our d-tilt will come out fast enough to catch them after the shine I don't think.

 

[deadjames]

I mean you can up-b the shines. Also crawling over bananas is incredibly useful imo.

 

[Jacob29]

ah yeah didn't think of up-b good point.

really? I just don't see it... although what happens if you up-b while on a banana?

if you trip... I genuinly feel its pointless, what diddy will let you walk over a banana for free? and if you say "knock him off", then why not just pick it up?

 

[deadjames]

Well crawling over it makes it easy to pick it up imo, when I fight Diddy as Bowser I literally just hold down with a banana in my hand and throw it down when he tries to approach.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Matchup Ratio: 7-3

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[Youngster Joey]

okay so its been forever since i posted here. since i kinda own this thread i feel responsible to update the original post with the mu chart. are there any mus that have been decided yet? i probably wont be around too much so if you guys feel you came to an agreement on a chunk of mu's just let me know and i'll come up with a chart of some sort

 

[CPU?]

Bowser's match ups vs Fox and Falco aren't that bad as every one says they are.
Bowser can edge guard them with ease with Bair. It's almost too easy. It stuffs both their over and up B recoveries. Sure they can combo the **** out of you, but after its all said and done all it takes is patience. One good Bair off stage and they're dead. When they are low and going for the up B recovery you can also use your butt slam with relative ease to send them into space. Not I'm not saying Bowser has a positive match up agains't fox and falco. I would say at most Fox and Falco have a 6-4 advantage.

 

[Jacob29]

Bowser's match ups vs Fox and Falco aren't that bad as every one says they are.
Bowser can edge guard them with ease with Bair. It's almost too easy. It stuffs both their over and up B recoveries. Sure they can combo the **** out of you, but after its all said and done all it takes is patience. One good Bair off stage and they're dead. When they are low and going for the up B recovery you can also use your butt slam with relative ease to send them into space. Not I'm not saying Bowser has a positive match up agains't fox and falco. I would say at most Fox and Falco have a 6-4 advantage.

Still have to actually get them off-stage. How good you edgeguard someone is irrelevant if you can never actually get them into that position.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm actually with CPU? here, at least until a very high level of play.

 

[Jacob29]

anything other than very high level play then yeah I agree. They're gonna go for sloppy approaches and get punished real hard by us...

but hey, that is what we do.

 

[NickRiddle]

Dash attack is the Spacies MU.

 

[Jacob29]

We haven't talked about Dedede.

How the heck do you approach him good lord.

F-Tilt from him. This is a very very basic look at the guy as I have played a whopping 1 game on NetPlay against him... but wowza I couldn't forsee any real way we can get close to him.

We don't exactly have the best aerial approach and we genuinely CANNOT touch him on the ground. F-Tilt beats our dash attack, our ftilt, our crouch, our dtilt... outranged side-b so no hope of that breaking in.

Only thing I could do was jump, bait out the f-tilt, jump again then punish.. but if he adapted to that it was game over

 

[NickRiddle]

F-tilt beats crouch armor? Eww.
Falling firebreath?

 

[Jacob29]

well I think it might, will have to double check I could have been messing it up.

Yeah falling firebreath works a bit... but gonna be a long match if you only firebreath

 

[Abeebo]

Sounds like you'll need to Nair harder. Not that it would turn the tides, but it MIGHT work sometimes. How much ledgeplay do you use against him? I'd suspect Bowser's ledge options during edgeguarding could still outperform DDD's aerial options as Bowser should be faster than DDD at that point.