Bowser MU discussion

[deadjames]

Yeah, but imo Bowser is favored against spacies.

No, Falco is close to even, but not in Bowser's favor and he gets absolutely destroyed by Fox and Wolf.

Roy isn't very good against bowser. He gets comboed hard and is easy to get offstage. Roy excels when bowser is offstage, but that is about it. I'd say it is 60:40 in browzers flavor. But then again roys neutral b...

I'd say it's 60-40 in Roy's favor, it's just like a slightly easier version of the Marth MU.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Yeah, but imo Bowser is favored against spacies, especially ages ago, in the patch relevant to the match you reference.

Dunno. Could be wrong, I guess. Gimpy's my idol, but I just don't think his play is anywhere near optimal. "Bad" is the word I'm inclined to use, but people tend to take that to mean that I believe I'm better - which is absolutely not the case.

Bah, there's no way to not sound like I'm dissing the WA scene here. It's more like the metagame in general, I think: most people just haven't the combination of skill and experience to capitalize on Bowser's weakpoints to the extent that it should be possible.

Random fact, Sheik is usually my counter-pick to Bowser.

 

[Jacob29]

Still no idea what to do vs Link.

He either projectile camps in which case.. help.

or he just grabs me in which case its down throw to U-tilt/air/smash which is pretty much unvaoidable except for serious errors on the Link player's inputs.

 

[deadjames]

Armor through projectiles and either bait his grab or cross-up his shield with a Koopa Klaw or something to avoid getting grabbed. It also helps to take him to a stage where he can't run away so effectively. Avoid SV and FD in particular.

 

[Jacob29]

mmm I'll try, but its pretty hard to bait a grab when even if you spot dodge it, it still might grab you.

Also he likes to use the Zair, land, and then grab. So I either jump, take damage but dont get grabbed, or don't jump and get grabbed. Kinda lose-lose.

Bearing in mind that just 1 successful grab means a free Up-anything, into zoning you out with Up-Air's so you can't land.

Wish I had some Ivy footage but looking through my videos our ivy player hasn't played her much recently.

Well I actually do have some fresh off the presses footage.

I'm not the best Bowser as you will see. Need to work on my spacing I recon, but this is how our Ivy/Bowser matches go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZy6lcfjqAg (and ofc gotta get that SD in early)

 

[deadjames]

Just be creative, if you know he's going to grab then there's a way to bait it. Link's grab is really easy to punish

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

powershield all the things

 

[Jacob29]

BUT THAT DEMANDS SKILL

 

[Jacob29]

I know I stated that owser ike was even but man... After playing this guy I was having some problems.

I found it veryhard to recover and VERY hard to kill him due to his up b seeming to be unstoppable by bowser

 

[deadjames]

You can punish Aether when Ike does the flip. I would recommend dtilt, since you can CC most of the weaker hits of it.

 

[Jacob29]

What % does that work at as I'm pretty sure the second you dtilt you lose most of your armour.

Hence in PKFire you instantly get caught if attempting to dtikt, and trip on bananas

 

[deadjames]

I don't know the exact %. Down-angled ftilt and fire breath are other options you could use to punish it too.

 

[Jacob29]

Note: Bowser v Bowser is very fun.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Down B is probably the best way to punish a low Aether. I think someone once posted the many ways that Bowser could punish Ike when edgeguarding back in.. 2.1 or something.

 

[Jacob29]

Do either of them work if he sweetspots though? You gotta be near the edge for ftilt and then aether will hit you

 

[deadjames]

Note: Bowser v Bowser is very fun.

Bowser dittos suck, for that matter dittos suck in general.

 

[Jacob29]

Down B is probably the best way to punish a low Aether. I think someone once posted the many ways that Bowser could punish Ike when edgeguarding back in.. 2.1 or something.

Ah yeah that might do it.

Bowser dittos suck, for that matter dittos suck in general.

Nah man. Side-B to Side-B in the Air is too fun to suck.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser dittos suck

not as much as Kirby dittos

 

[deadjames]

Nah man. Side-B to Side-B in the Air is too fun to suck.

That works on a bunch of characters, and it's heavily DI dependent.

not as much as Kirby dittos

Hence why I said dittos in general suck.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Side B regrabs are guaranteed at 0% on large, heavy chars like DDD, DK and Bowser.

 

[Jacob29]

That works on a bunch of characters, and it's heavily DI dependent.

Hence why I said dittos in general suck.

Might work on a bunch, but it seemed fairly guaranteed at points vs other Bowser's.




Also, wanna discuss Sonic. What do you guys think in more detail about this MU?

Seem's kinda hard to edgeguard, he has a real nice recovery. Not impossible but not the easiest to edgeguard. He get's some mad combo's on Bowser with his Fair. Has crazy speed that we can't match. Stops us from coming back down with Up-B and Up-Air. Stops us combo'ing him with his Up-B. We get him up there, we go for a hit, he up-b's, D-air's and we have too much ending lag to stop him.

Might just be playing it wrong but they either pressure me into shield, and then just grab me, or combo me.

 

[Burning Boom]

When you're Boozer against Sonic, you really only have one problem.

You're too slow!
Seriously though, Sonic can just run circles around Bowser for days waiting for some kind of opening, even on a stage like Battlefield. Fortunatley though, Sonic generally has piss poor range on mostly everything, so Bowser can get hits on, and punish without the use of a miracle.

 

[deadjames]

I think Bowser beats Sonic. He has a lot of tools to shut down Sonic's approach options.

 

[Jacob29]

Alright, but how does Bowser approach?

Doesn't really matter that Sonic can't approach Bowser (which he can). If Bowser can't do the same back.

Sonic can easily just wait for us to miss a move and then punish us with a grab/anything at all.

 

[Abeebo]

"just wait for us to miss a move and then punish us with a grab/anything at all."

Yeap. Sounds like a Bowser matchup.

 

[deadjames]

Alright, but how does Bowser approach?

Doesn't really matter that Sonic can't approach Bowser (which he can). If Bowser can't do the same back.

Sonic can easily just wait for us to miss a move and then punish us with a grab/anything at all.

If you're approaching with Bowser in any MU, you're doing it wrong. As for Sonic, he has to rely on mixups to approach Bowser because ftilt, flame, utilt, and dtilt can stuff literally every approach option Sonic has except for side-b > JC grab.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Been experimenting a lot with flame cancel; it's pretty super against a lot of the cast

 

[Jacob29]

If you're approaching with Bowser in any MU, you're doing it wrong..

well you HAVE to in some MUs

 

[deadjames]

Not really.

 

[Jacob29]

Surely Fox/Falco/Links/Sheik/Zelda etc can just stand back and spam projectiles at us?

We can't exactly just wait on a ledge all game.

 

[deadjames]

That's why you bait them into approaching you. Though that is pretty difficult for Zelda, the advantage here is that Bowser is actually faster than her. Also Fox and Falco can't really do that. Because of the nerfs to their lasers, the damage is pretty negligible at long range so they have to be at least at mid-range for their lasers to do effective damage and if you have a %/stock lead then you can wait on the ledge all game. The most important part of being successful with Bowser is being annoyingly patient.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

That's why you bait them into approaching you. Though that is pretty difficult for Zelda, the advantage here is that Bowser is actually faster than her. Also Fox and Falco can't really do that. Because of the nerfs to their lasers, the damage is pretty negligible at long range so they have to be at least at mid-range for their lasers to do effective damage and if you have a %/stock lead then you can wait on the ledge all game. The most important part of being successful with Bowser is being annoyingly patient.

Consider that spacies can also bait you into approaching.

Consider, also, that they can actually force you to do something effectively because they actually have a projectile that does to you (Mostly notably for Fox since it just deals damage, and it's not viable to PS fox lasers), and that they are much faster than Bowser can ever possibly hope to be. In a baiting game with players of equal skill the spacies player just has a tremendous advantage.

 

[deadjames]

Well obviously spacies have the advantage in the MU against Bowser, but which players have the advantage in the baiting game is dependent on a lot of different variables.

 

[deadjames]

Anyone have any advice for the Mewtwo MU? It seems pretty tough for Bowser.

 

[Jacob29]

After facing a m2 in tournament I don't think its that bad.

If you can read the teleports bowser punishes them pretty well. Also we have some nice range with our aerial.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Anyone have any advice for the Mewtwo MU? It seems pretty tough for Bowser.

Pick a different character. The MU isn't impossible but it's damn close.

Your dtilt beats his, use it lots. Use flame cancel to hit him when falling and he's spacing against Klaw. Never overcommit - you can kill him with upb. Get good at powershielding shadow balls - yes, it can be done consistently.

 

[deadjames]

Pick a different character.

This doesn't qualify as MU advice, I've decided to go back to only playing Bowser unless it's friendlies or dubs because my tournament results post 3.0 have been significantly worse with the other characters I've tried to pick up. Also I don't think the Mewtwo MU is anywhere close to impossible for Bowser, I went Bowser against the best Mewtwo in my region in tourney yesterday and did significantly better against him than I did with any other characters I've tried to play against him, he even commented that he thinks Bowser is the hardest one for Mewtwo to handle (the others being Mario and Peach).

 

[Frost | Odds]

This doesn't qualify as MU advice

Which is why I immediately followed up with MU advice - given that I've got probably more experience in that MU than, hell, literally anyone.

I should have also said to dair a lot. Sorry.

is the hardest one for Mewtwo to handle (the others being Mario and Peach).

M2 poops on Peach pretty profoundly

Mario has a better MU against him than almost anyone, though (imo, ofc) - so I guess I have to officially diss your Mario.

I mean, Bowser can be tough for anyone without a bunch of experience against him, so it's not terribly surprising that you'd do well in that MU. You've got a lot of stuff that can gib M2 at pretty low damage levels, and the Klaw is tough to read. The problems come once your opponent actually knows how to pitch a tent and force Bowser to walk through the campfire.

 

[Jacob29]

Mm I still think Ness is one of Bowsers worst matchups.

 

[deadjames]

Anyone have any advice in the Snake MU? It seems really hard for Bowser, I had no idea what to do against a Snake in tourney the other day and got wrecked.