Bowser MU discussion

Frost | Odds

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Sigh, whatever you say, dude. If you find yourself in Alberta before 3.5, look me up. I'll MM you for $100, my day 0 ivy vs your bowser.

Why can't we talk about matchups that are actually worth discussing?
 
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Mr. Bones

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Sigh, whatever you say, dude. If you find yourself in Alberta before 3.5, look me up. I'll MM you for $100, my day 0 ivy vs your bowser.

Why can't we talk about matchups that are actually worth discussing?
I'll take that MM. <3 I'll just keep a copy of 3.02 in case I can't make it before the update.

But the top 5 hardest are worth discussing. Because they also see a lot of high level tourney play.

I mean, we could always talk about how hilariously easy Falco is for Bowser, I guess. And how adding an "n" to the end of the name makes it significantly harder.
 
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Frost | Odds

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Falco's a pretty funny case. He's an extremely rough MU in Melee (second only to Sheik in my experience), but the addition of crouch armor ensures he has to work much, much harder than before to get anything does.

I don't think it's a hilariously easy matchup for Bowser - especially against a Falco that understands how to play the matchup (less dairs, more shinegrabs and tilts), but I do think we win.

Also, the MM was only for Candypants specifically, because I've watched his youtube videos and am pretty confident I'd crush him with just about anyone. Will still MM you if we bump into each other, but maybe not for quite that much. Or at least I'd have to practice Ivy for a few days first, heh.
 
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Frost | Odds

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What's the Wolf match-up like for Bowser? I feel like it's in Wolf's favor from what I've learned.
It is, but wolf has to camp really hard, and most Wolf players seem to have some serious problems doing anything but YOLOing in at maximum warp. Kinda similar to how CF 100-0's Bowser but nobody talks about it because CF players are pathologically incapable of camping.

Wolf basically combines the worst of Fox and Falco for Bowser: Falco's combo game combined with Fox's dash dance and a way better version of Fox's grab game. You're also the single easiest thing in the game for Wolf to combo into Flash.

Bowser combos Wolf pretty hard though and he'll probably get salty and SD 3 times after Bowser klaw -> utilt -> utilt -> utilt -> utilt -> fair -> edgeguards him.
 
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TimeMuffinPhD

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It is, but wolf has to camp really hard, and most Wolf players seem to have some serious problems doing anything but YOLOing in at maximum warp. Kinda similar to how CF 100-0's Bowser but nobody talks about it because CF players are pathologically incapable of camping.

Wolf basically combines the worst of Fox and Falco for Bowser: Falco's combo game combined with Fox's dash dance and a way better version of Fox's grab game. You're also the single easiest thing in the game for Wolf to combo into Flash.

Bowser combos Wolf pretty hard though and he'll probably get salty and SD 3 times after Bowser klaw -> utilt -> utilt -> utilt -> utilt -> fair -> edgeguards him.
So I'd camp him with lasers and use that as an approach for a combo to death? Also can Bowser get out of N-air shine via DI? Seems like I can do that forever into side-b, then if he tries to recover edge-guard with U-Smash.
 

Frost | Odds

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Lasers are really good, yeah. If Bowser crawls through them, just DD, bait the dtilt, and nairshine or grab him.

I think the shine pretty much always gives you a followup, though if your reflexes are bad Bowser can mix up his DI and possibly get out. You seem to have a handle on it.
 
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While I'm aware of Bowser having a good MU against Jiggs, there is one I play with a mean rest game that I can't seem to escape once hit. I know little about Jiggs' moves so it's not just the skill gap: How do I (figuratively) approach Jiggs?

Also, Lucario. I get hit once and I've lost a stock. I'm lost there, too
 

JU5T1Nsane

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i play bowser religiously in project m melee and 3ds I know I'm a nobody but i consider myself a great bowser player and these r just my opinions on his worst match ups of course this is 100% opinion from a guy who just plays way to much bowser lol ill also put a very small reason why i have the opinion i have also this is one of my first comments so please be nice I'm relatively new to the smash competitive scene XD lol also for the record, project m is where i play the most so most of my views are based upon project m unless specified otherwise. please help me improve my game id deeply appreciate constructive criticism. =]

ABSOLUTE WORST NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN:
Ganon = from exp. i just CANNOT win against Gan no matter what i do all his moves just destroy bowser because there all so big and cover so much screen if you will and bowser thrives off platforms but gan shuts down my platform game with his incredible ariels. idk i just do awful against gan, definite kryptonite. advice would be great here.
sheik = good God between the needles and her throws combing into everything sheik is one of my worst match ups.
greninja = I CANT GET IN! and when i do he just does some shenanigans and escapes. please help with this one especially
link and tink = in melee and 3ds id say not as much but in project m where link is a God it's difficult to get in and even if you do get in links up close game is still incredible its because of link I've been training non stop on my powershiled game because if you don't power shield against link you lose simple as that.


HARD BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE:
C. Falcon = idk I've seen many people say falcon is amazing against falcon but for me all i do is charge in against falcon and as long as i don't get grabbed i actually do really well against falcon but if you get grabbed even once you're probably going to lose a stock
The spaceies = in melee i would put them under nearly impossible but project m as long as you don't get too big of a stage theyre definitely beatable with smart aggressive play in my exp. also if i ever get shield pressured or if i finally get close and they try to get some damage and then run away as long as you punish hard enough bowser has decent tools to edgegaurd their particular recoveries like fortress hogging back air and short hop down airing right on the ledge and even his get up attack below 100 if well timed I've found edgegaurd the species really well
mewtwo = in project m mew2 just edge guards bowser so well with that God forsaken tail combined with bowser being gigantic easily hit by shadow ball and forward air in my opinion from my exp. i think mew two punishes heavies hard on the edge.
pikachu = maybe this one is just me but i have a hard time with pikachu across all games. between pikachus up air and lightning bursts keeping bowser away and pikachu being so fast and also since bowser is so big its easier to hit the thunder imo idk pikachus always been a problem for me. only reason he's not impossible is because once i get in i can usually use brute force to over power pikachu up close killing him in like 6-7 moves unless its dreamland or something like that.
samus = again able to keep bowser away, and since bowsers so big it makes him a big target for the charge blast but kinda of a similar matchup to mew two KINDA lol but at least samus doesn't have a tail to edgegaurd bowser as effectively as mew two.
ike = for me ike is hard because his smashes are just designed to hit bowser really ike is so strong and has some good range. he's like a slightly lighter bowser but with extended range which is very bad for bowser.
ivy = i really don't know what to do against ivy can i get some advice in here?
zelda = I'm really curious to see how the single dins fire will effect this matchup in 3.5 but until then she's difficult ONLY because of dins fire really and her God forsaken diamond thing her neutral b

EVEN OR EVER SO SLIGHTLY IN BOWSERS FAVOR:
dedede = for me has always been player dependent. sometimes i just destroy dedede and other times i get destroyed lol I've found that dedede has great tools against bowser but the same goes for bowser against dedede
luigi = luigis shenanigans can be difficult for bowser on certain stages but overall i think bowsers able to brute him.
ness and lucas = maybe its just me because i have a lot of ness and lucas exp because my main smash partner is a lucas main but I've found that they cannot handle an aggressive bowser. they just can't maybe lucas has a slightly easier time getting bowser off of him but overall if just charge them down i usually pull out a win but imo i think they edgegaurd bowser particular recovery really well.
snake = can be difficult but i feel i do pretty well against snake AS LONG AS THERES PLATFORMS
marth and roy = maybe i only feel this way because i also mained marth and roy in melee but idk i don't think they're that hard to beat as long as you keep them above bowser you should be fine but watch out for moves with big swings like up tilt and f smash



GOOD MATCHUPS FOR BOWSER:
again based solely on my exp.
jiggly = i don't really need to explain this one lol 3 hits boom ko
olimar = he just has no good tools to fight a character like bowser. bowser is just a relentless tank and olimar just can't stop him
game and watch = in my exp. bowser WRECKS g&w he's light, bowser poops on his shield i don't think I've ever lost against a game watch lol
lucario = although lucario can combo bowser like theres no tomorrow i feel as though his kill moves are hard to land on bowser i know that sounds weird because bowser is huge and a pretty predictable recovery but again this is why this is just my opinion lol I've been able to live till 310% against my friends lucario and i know he's gotta be at least semi decent because he kills my other mains
sonic = the reason i find sonic easy is because no matter what, sonic has to charge in eventually somehow some way he has to come to you to cause serious damage so against sonic i often just wait for the player to make a mistake and then punish extremely hard because at least the way i use bowser i can out close quarters combat any character confidently with the exception of gan and cap.
wario = idk what it is but i do great against wario he's just that weight that makes him easy for me to ko i think bowser just beats wario in the air only thing wario has against bowser is some gimps but just from exp i almost always beat wario
ice climbers = bowser can just overwhelm the ice climbers i THINK this is why, since bowsers moves are all so strong and do so much damage any hit on each ice climber makes it really easy to make their knock back different therefore separating them. so even if you get one forward tilt lets say on nana but not popo thats like a good 10-15 damage on nana and thats a lot in smash if you think about it. thats the difference between 35 (ish) and 50 (ish) with just one hit
squirtle = simply too weak doesn't matter how fast and much bowser gets combod by squirtle if I'm able to grab him or koopa claw him i can usually kill him with just a couple more follow up hits since he's so light and squirts another character that kinda has to be close quarters to do damage which at least for me is where bowser shines most.
kirby = he's just so light and really only has his back air to stop bowsers relentless approach.

if a character wasn't listed i probably dont have enough knowledge on them sooooo please let me know some opinions and help me out with some constructive criticism agains please be nice I'm still pretty new to the competitive scene so take everything I've said with a grain of salt pun intended lol XD
 

Mr. Bones

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i play bowser religiously in...melee...
Ouch. That being said, I'm going to post my advice for the P:M matchups.

ABSOLUTE WORST NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN:
Ganon = from exp. i just CANNOT win against Gan no matter what i do all his moves just destroy bowser because there all so big and cover so much screen if you will and bowser thrives off platforms but gan shuts down my platform game with his incredible ariels. idk i just do awful against gan, definite kryptonite. advice would be great here.
The only game Ganon should be consistently beating Bowser is in Melee. But Bowser in Melee is pretty awful anyway. In Project M, it's actually pretty even. You just have to be aware of his range and work with your Flame canceling a bit. Overall, just be sure to end his stock when you knock him offstage. A recovering Ganondorf should be a free stock for us; he can edgeguard us pretty well too, especially with the float now. Just mix up your recovery heights and keep frosty.

I'll message you Smash 4 stuff(Or go to Smash 4 boards) for that kind of advice.

sheik = good God between the needles and her throws combing into everything sheik is one of my worst match ups.
Crouch cancel and keep out of range with jabs and tilts when you can. Flame canceling helps here too. Just don't get grabbed; mix up your DI on her throws if you do and just try to avoid big stages. A tough MU, but not impossible. We're a lot faster in 3.5

link and tink = in melee and 3ds id say not as much but in project m where link is a God it's difficult to get in and even if you do get in links up close game is still incredible its because of link I've been training non stop on my powershiled game because if you don't power shield against link you lose simple as that.
Not necessarily. You have to pressure them up close and not allow them to set up their projectiles, which are a lot harder to deal with than their up close game. Go for a Dash attack or two to punish any badly spaced projectiles or sword swings. DON'T APPROACH with Dash Attack. It's just a punish/counter of sorts. You can also follow up with other neat stuff like our super jump attacks or a simple short/full hop forward air depending on their percents. Keep jabbing/tilting away at them and poke them a lot. Power shielding makes the MU a lot easier, but it won't cost you the game to not use it.


HARD BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE:
C. Falcon = idk I've seen many people say falcon is amazing against falcon but for me all i do is charge in against falcon and as long as i don't get grabbed i actually do really well against falcon but if you get grabbed even once you're probably going to lose a stock
Don't charge in, whatever you do. @.@ Any competent Falcon will run circles around you and punish any reckless approach. Also those death-touch grabs of theirs can happen as their punish. >_> Luckily, we can chain grab them to death too. I would suggest practicing the chain grabs against fast-fallers with a friend and have them mix-up the DI so you can learn how to follow up against different DI.

As far as the neutral game goes, don't try to swing right away. Just DD around and threaten their space and see how they react. Go in for the kill only if you see an opening. Jabs/Tilts/Nair OOS are great against Falcon. Keep aware.

The spaceies = in melee i would put them under nearly impossible but project m as long as you don't get too big of a stage theyre definitely beatable with smart aggressive play in my exp. also if i ever get shield pressured or if i finally get close and they try to get some damage and then run away as long as you punish hard enough bowser has decent tools to edgegaurd their particular recoveries like fortress hogging back air and short hop down airing right on the ledge and even his get up attack below 100 if well timed I've found edgegaurd the species really well
Dash Attack destroys Falco. Everyone else is just play safe and combo them to death when you get a good grab or U-Tilt on them. Jabs/Tilts/Etc. And yeah, it's pretty damn easy to edgeguard spacies, luckily.

TO BE CONTINUED *******

mewtwo = in project m mew2 just edge guards bowser so well with that God forsaken tail combined with bowser being gigantic easily hit by shadow ball and forward air in my opinion from my exp. i think mew two punishes heavies hard on the edge.
pikachu = maybe this one is just me but i have a hard time with pikachu across all games. between pikachus up air and lightning bursts keeping bowser away and pikachu being so fast and also since bowser is so big its easier to hit the thunder imo idk pikachus always been a problem for me. only reason he's not impossible is because once i get in i can usually use brute force to over power pikachu up close killing him in like 6-7 moves unless its dreamland or something like that.
samus = again able to keep bowser away, and since bowsers so big it makes him a big target for the charge blast but kinda of a similar matchup to mew two KINDA lol but at least samus doesn't have a tail to edgegaurd bowser as effectively as mew two.
ike = for me ike is hard because his smashes are just designed to hit bowser really ike is so strong and has some good range. he's like a slightly lighter bowser but with extended range which is very bad for bowser.
ivy = i really don't know what to do against ivy can i get some advice in here?
zelda = I'm really curious to see how the single dins fire will effect this matchup in 3.5 but until then she's difficult ONLY because of dins fire really and her God forsaken diamond thing her neutral b

EVEN OR EVER SO SLIGHTLY IN BOWSERS FAVOR:
dedede = for me has always been player dependent. sometimes i just destroy dedede and other times i get destroyed lol I've found that dedede has great tools against bowser but the same goes for bowser against dedede
luigi = luigis shenanigans can be difficult for bowser on certain stages but overall i think bowsers able to brute him.
ness and lucas = maybe its just me because i have a lot of ness and lucas exp because my main smash partner is a lucas main but I've found that they cannot handle an aggressive bowser. they just can't maybe lucas has a slightly easier time getting bowser off of him but overall if just charge them down i usually pull out a win but imo i think they edgegaurd bowser particular recovery really well.
snake = can be difficult but i feel i do pretty well against snake AS LONG AS THERES PLATFORMS
marth and roy = maybe i only feel this way because i also mained marth and roy in melee but idk i don't think they're that hard to beat as long as you keep them above bowser you should be fine but watch out for moves with big swings like up tilt and f smash



GOOD MATCHUPS FOR BOWSER:
again based solely on my exp.
jiggly = i don't really need to explain this one lol 3 hits boom ko
olimar = he just has no good tools to fight a character like bowser. bowser is just a relentless tank and olimar just can't stop him
game and watch = in my exp. bowser WRECKS g&w he's light, bowser poops on his shield i don't think I've ever lost against a game watch lol
lucario = although lucario can combo bowser like theres no tomorrow i feel as though his kill moves are hard to land on bowser i know that sounds weird because bowser is huge and a pretty predictable recovery but again this is why this is just my opinion lol I've been able to live till 310% against my friends lucario and i know he's gotta be at least semi decent because he kills my other mains
sonic = the reason i find sonic easy is because no matter what, sonic has to charge in eventually somehow some way he has to come to you to cause serious damage so against sonic i often just wait for the player to make a mistake and then punish extremely hard because at least the way i use bowser i can out close quarters combat any character confidently with the exception of gan and cap.
wario = idk what it is but i do great against wario he's just that weight that makes him easy for me to ko i think bowser just beats wario in the air only thing wario has against bowser is some gimps but just from exp i almost always beat wario
ice climbers = bowser can just overwhelm the ice climbers i THINK this is why, since bowsers moves are all so strong and do so much damage any hit on each ice climber makes it really easy to make their knock back different therefore separating them. so even if you get one forward tilt lets say on nana but not popo thats like a good 10-15 damage on nana and thats a lot in smash if you think about it. thats the difference between 35 (ish) and 50 (ish) with just one hit
squirtle = simply too weak doesn't matter how fast and much bowser gets combod by squirtle if I'm able to grab him or koopa claw him i can usually kill him with just a couple more follow up hits since he's so light and squirts another character that kinda has to be close quarters to do damage which at least for me is where bowser shines most.
kirby = he's just so light and really only has his back air to stop bowsers relentless approach.

if a character wasn't listed i probably dont have enough knowledge on them sooooo please let me know some opinions and help me out with some constructive criticism agains please be nice I'm still pretty new to the competitive scene so take everything I've said with a grain of salt pun intended lol XD
 

Chaos_Blasta

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I played a game against Machiavelli's Ivy and a set against Frozen's Mewtwo.

While I got pounded hard, I don't think either MU is particularly unwinnable, especially vs Ivy. The neutral against Ivy is very tough because you have to respect the ramge she has with moves like Bair while also being very careful of the razor leaf and seed bomb, but as long as you keep playing it safe and only throw out what's absolutely neccesary, it should be manageable.

Mewtwo is another story though. I really had no idea how to space myself against mewtwo's stuff, particularly because he can teleport into your range at any time if you show any vulnerability in your neutral. His range is scary and he can also combo you/edgeguard you pretty effectively. I chalk it up to MU inexperience more than anything but at the very least it was very rough.
 
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Bowser has no winning match ups anymore, honestly.

Campy characters crush him.
Fast in your face characters crush him.
Zoners/swords crush him.
Combo characters crush him.

Honestly if you win a match/set with bowser, you deserved that win and you worked really hard for it or your opponent had no knowledge of the character.

Honestly i love bowser and am a loyalist to him, but i honestly dont see a single winning match up.
 

Chaos_Blasta

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If you wanna look at Bowser's MUs in a more positive light you also gotta realize the good thing Bowser has, not just his weaknesses. Particularly:

-Great range on his moves allowing him to space your opponent out effectively, unless they have similar range (Marth, etc)
-His great kill power (even after all the nerfs) with Uair, Bair, Down B, certain smashes and tilts, klaw Bthrow, etc
-His edgeguarding game being one of the best in the game, giving him incredibly free kills vs characters with linear recoveries, and even a good chance of edgeguarding chars with more flexible ones, due to moves like Bair and Down B, and his ledgejump being the fastest in the game by far
-Arguably the best defensive OoS option in PM, an Up B that lets him escape almost every kind of shield pressure and retreat safely to the ledge most of the time.

At the very least, and this is only from my personal experience, I think that Bowser has some winning MUs vs characters like Kirby and Zelda. There are also some MUs I would call even or are only at a light disadvantage for Bowser, such as Ganondorf, DK, DDD, Lucario and Ike. If the opposing character has no meaningful way to threaten Bowser outside of his effective range, and also doesn't have good means to rush in and punish/grab Bowser inbetween laggy moves, it's not that bad for us. It's just that there are a lot of MUs that describe just that.
 
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Zelda is a bad match up, she can do weird dumb things with bowser. And you can zone with two attacks before you are lagged out. And once again ganon actually has a chain grab into air attack into edge guard. I mean you can name any character and where there may be a good side for bowser, there's a worse side that you may not be aware of. I main bowser, I love bowser and I have beaten some good players with bowser. But you have to work for your wins now. Nothing is free except maybe edge gaurds
 

Chaos_Blasta

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"Weird dumb things" is hardly descriptive. Atleast as of my experience from 3.0 (And Zelda has been nerfed since then, may I add), Bowser just had to use crouch's light armor to outright beat a lot of zelda's moves like Usmash, Nair, Nayru, Fsmash's early hits, and teleport. You also threaten her too hard by simply spacing by fairs, making it very hard for her to approach at all, as she doesn't really have any fast movement options. The only thing you really had to worry about was her fair/bair, which killed brutally early and put you in enough shieldstun to leave you unable to punish afterwards.

Ganon hits hard as ****, chaingrabs, has a good edgeguard and can get very annoying when using his side B to get you out of your shield, but he also has no good ways to approach Bowser, particularly if you don't commit. Bowser's movement IS faster, and you have armors to tank Ganon's strongest hits and be able to easily punish afterwards, which I frankly believe gives Bowser the edge on the neutral game. You cannot say a MU is bad just because A can chaingrab B, that would heavily generalize a lot of MUs that are more complex than that ( e.g. a lot of characters vs Fox).
 
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How about this, on a stage where you cant reach a platform (green hill zone, fd, yoshi island) zelda can chain upsmash bowser 3 times before he be knock high enough to act out of hit stun. That should not be a thing, but on bowser it is. That is what i mean by weird dumb things.

Also Its already been discussed and as i switch against ganondorf, i dont know the match up for bowser like i should. But i know its bad enough that i have to switch. Also its already been discussed and proven that bowser has mathematically been proven to have 0 winning match ups and most easily counter picked
 

Pluttergub

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Also its already been discussed and proven that bowser has mathematically been proven to have 0 winning match ups and most easily counter picked
I find this very hard to believe. First off, 3.6 has been out for several weeks now, and given the significant changes to Bowser from 3.6b to 3.6, most if not all of his matchups have not been extensively played or analyzed at a high level yet. Discussion about matchups is important, but not because of any "conclusions" people draw regarding how good or bad these matchups are, especially during the first few weeks of a new update. Second, whether a matchup is good or bad is not mathematically proven. Matchup numbers are always opinionated, never objectively true. In the case of Melee, these opinions regarding matchups are usually widely accepted and come from 10+ years of high-level play and analysis. Even then, opinions change very often. With PM, which is updated at least every year, it is unrealistic to expect matchup numbers that are accurate at the top level of play until, most likely, a couple years after the final version of PM is released. Third, and I hesitate to say this with certainty because it would contradict my first couple points: I highly doubt that Bowser has absolutely no winning matchups. Even if he does lose every matchup in the game, it's far more important to know what to do in each matchup rather than how bad each matchup is.
 
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I find this very hard to believe. First off, 3.6 has been out for several weeks now, and given the significant changes to Bowser from 3.6b to 3.6, most if not all of his matchups have not been extensively played or analyzed at a high level yet. Discussion about matchups is important, but not because of any "conclusions" people draw regarding how good or bad these matchups are, especially during the first few weeks of a new update. Second, whether a matchup is good or bad is not mathematically proven. Matchup numbers are always opinionated, never objectively true. In the case of Melee, these opinions regarding matchups are usually widely accepted and come from 10+ years of high-level play and analysis. Even then, opinions change very often. With PM, which is updated at least every year, it is unrealistic to expect matchup numbers that are accurate at the top level of play until, most likely, a couple years after the final version of PM is released. Third, and I hesitate to say this with certainty because it would contradict my first couple points: I highly doubt that Bowser has absolutely no winning matchups. Even if he does lose every matchup in the game, it's far more important to know what to do in each matchup rather than how bad each matchup is.
I mean you can feel free to say that, but in the tier list discussion is where bowser appears at rock bottom everytime and the numbers that i was speaking of were winning match ups and how many stages or characters would be considered a counterpick (basically how easy the character is to counterpick and how many good match ups does the character have originally).

And bowser fell at the bottom and the second to last fighter, Dk, Had double the numbers bowser did.

And im sure even odds has a hard time finding a good match up who is only amazing at bowser.
But please tell me what does someone do against diddy....fox...toon link or link...rob. I mean i can think of more, but at the highest competitive level i feel like those matches are so bad that it makes bowser unable to be solo mained. But of course this is just opinion
 
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Snake
snake makes me sad
is rough and I have lost first game pretty consistently, but I always managed to come back after I figure out their patterns.
Nair stops his recovery, it's just figuring out when to intercept. His grenades are annoying but once again after you fogure out patterns you can punish.
His tranquil dart is annoying and tough but pick the right stage and go for weird ledge and platform wave lands and then it's just timing and pattern recognition.

Maybe I am looking at it wrong, but numbers wise snake has advantage, but if you play one good snake, they don't really seem to change to drastically and have very flow charty stuff. Much like Kirby. But I don't like flow chart characters but that's why I don't play them lol
 

Oracle

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I think i probably should have banned distant planet. he just put a mine underneath one of the middle platforms and threw grenades, couldn't really have gotten around it.
 

Chaos_Blasta

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I'm not even sure what to think of the Snake MU as a whole. It's just that Bowser's too big and Snake has too many projectiles that hit Bowser easily due to his size and leave him open to punishes for days. Dair hurts big time, and stickying Bowser is a death sentence for the whole stock afterwards.
 

Abeebo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
278
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SF Valley
Considering how incredibly dynamic Snake's stage control is, I don't think the stage size really matters nearly as much as stages with well-placed platforms that allow easy ledge grabs. Definitely take your opponents to small stages, but there are some big stages where you can still move around effectively. This should let any Bowser move around and threaten big space with aplomb.

The for-sure changes I make to my game against Snake is more shorthop mixups with emphasis on Flames and play hella patient at the ledge. Flames are pretty useful in this MU, I think, as long as you can prevent Snake from jumping over them. I do shorthops with Snake's tranq in mind.
This match up is super hard, but I think it's safe to say that Bowser's raw movement is still superior and that he HAS to rely on that to clutch it out.
 
Joined
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Considering how incredibly dynamic Snake's stage control is, I don't think the stage size really matters nearly as much as stages with well-placed platforms that allow easy ledge grabs. Definitely take your opponents to small stages, but there are some big stages where you can still move around effectively. This should let any Bowser move around and threaten big space with aplomb.

The for-sure changes I make to my game against Snake is more shorthop mixups with emphasis on Flames and play hella patient at the ledge. Flames are pretty useful in this MU, I think, as long as you can prevent Snake from jumping over them. I do shorthops with Snake's tranq in mind.
This match up is super hard, but I think it's safe to say that Bowser's raw movement is still superior and that he HAS to rely on that to clutch it out.
I disagree with flames simply because of the tranq and flames both being transandent and a tranq = a sticky.

I think its just slowly boxing snake in and taking the stock at least 80% of the time once you do box him in and personally i would take him to a small stage but i dont really see FD in this match up being too bad either.... or dream land... basically the only bad stage is a stage that prevents you from seeing mines or doesnt have enough movement options (but really, if Fd is an okay choice, what is not?)
 

Abeebo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
278
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SF Valley
It is definitely risky and i'm not advocating that Flames is Bowser's strongest tool in the MU. The thing is Flames really helps with pushing Snake off the stage since it has reach, pushback, decent damage, and stops grenades/mines. Like I said, if you can predict the tranq(shielding helps) AND your movement is on point, then you should be able to squeeze in a few Flames per match.

(but really, if Fd is an okay choice, what is not?)
I dunno man, you tell me why FD is the better choice sometimes. I always strike FD first since I loooove platforms and Bowser only loses mobility/options when there aren't any. He can only crouch cancel so much...
 
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Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
492
It is definitely risky and i'm not advocating that Flames is Bowser's strongest tool in the MU. The thing is Flames really helps with pushing Snake off the stage since it has reach, pushback, decent damage, and stops grenades/mines. Like I said, if you can predict the tranq(shielding helps) AND your movement is on point, then you should be able to squeeze in a few Flames per match.


I dunno man, you tell me why FD is the better choice sometimes. I always strike FD first since I loooove platforms and Bowser only loses mobility/options when there aren't any. He can only crouch cancel so much...
Snake has less options too, yes you lose wave landing, but he loses camping, up smash jank, weird early kills with sticky. And its not like he has a horizontal projectile to spam you with (tranq is not that kind of tool).
Like somone said earlier about how there was a mine and snake was spamming grenades and it was making him hard to approach. You dont really have to worry about that on fd. Im not saying its ideal, i would still go yoshi story probably, but it would not be a bad choice.
 

Tobb99

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I mean you can feel free to say that, but in the tier list
But please tell me what does someone do against diddy....fox...toon link or link...rob. I mean i can think of more, but at the highest competitive level i feel like those matches are so bad that it makes bowser unable to be solo mained. But of course this is just opinion
Want to add some about ROB. I played against Can~D a good Bowser from UK at Beast 5. I remembered that one of the things he excelled at was the edgeguarding, using getup-attacks and b-airs. But y, it might be that I played somewhat bad, CC too often leaving me in bad spot to recover. But I still think that edgeguarding probably is bowsers biggest strength. That b-air is super good at edgeguarding, and the getup-attack and the flames are really good as well, you can even ledge-jump to intercept high recoveries since bowser's ledge-jump is pretty high. But the ROB matchup is probably really tough, ROB can both camp really well and also combo him really well, and lastly punish hard of a grab. Edgeguarding can also be tough unless ROB recovers low. To wisely use n-air as a combo-breaker is probably really good, in any match-up in general, but especially against character with a good juggle game.
 
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Kneato

Totoro Joe
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
395
Location
New Ontario
Matchup from :bowser2:'s Perspective (+3 has Bowser winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0::zelda:
-1::falco::lucas::sonic::link2::pikachu2::pit::luigi2::charizard::yoshi2:
-2::wolf::roypm::metaknight::peach::gw::mario2::ike::jigglypuff::snake::ness2::dk2:
-3::toonlink::ivysaur::wario::fox::mewtwopm::samus2:
:sheik::kirby2::squirtle::dedede::popo::marth::falcon::olimar::zerosuitsamus::lucario::ganondorf::rob:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.
 

themaziest

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
71
Location
France
I want to do this since a very long time.

There are three key facts about Bowser's matchup spread:

- The less you know the matchup against Bowser, the more you'll suffer ; the more you know, the less you'll be in danger against his strong attributes. As someone said a long time ago in the Tier List Speculation Thread (which is often a misleading place to discuss by the way), Bowser is hard to fight proportionally to the number of fights you have played against him. It was better said as a joke, but trust me, the truth is not far from that. I know you could say that of every character in the game, but Bowser seems overwhelmingly good at first which is definitively a false impression, and which leads to my second point...

- Bowser is a noob wrecker, I would even say THE noob wrecker alongside Ganondorf in Project M. When you face a player that knows how to space effectively, when to dash dance and bait, and more importantly how to punish hard, Bowser becomes an easy prey, a slow, fat and helpless punchingbag. But even in high level play, you have to be a careful mastermind. One mistake means that Bowser will eat your stock super fast ; one mistake from Bowser and he's a dead shell. Throw the dices.

- You can't see the whole picture on the matter without considering wisely the stagelist and general ruleset. Bowser is oftenly watched as an okay counterpick on small or non-flat stages. I'm not telling you that if BF, WW and YS were the only playable stages, Bowser would be Top Tier. But heck, Project M current meta resolves a lot about counterpicking so it's not to say that Bowser is completely irrelevant to the game like half the cast in Melee. Though I just found hypocritical to entitle him of "viable" in the "Official Tier List" when in reality he's just "usable" or "occasionnaly good". If "viable" means "solo viable" then I'm waiting for a proof of that statement, like any other polarized characters (DDD, Puff, IC, Ivysaur, Zelda to main a few) there are some terrible matchups that are just too unbearable to overcome.

Althought I agree that Bowser's design has becoming less polarized throughout PM development: less armor, weaker armor, reduced size and fewer range. No more flame cancelling. No more "jank". So what is the situation now? Since 3.5, Bowser is considered by many top players as one of the worst character in the whole game, in 3.6b, Bowser was laughably bad with no compensated nerfs, so what now? Bowser is always deemed as the worst, with an awful matchup spread, and I'm not fool enough to disagree with this statement. That being said -treat me like an optimistic jerk if you want- I have a really hard time to believe that our favorite turtle has no winning matchups at all in Project M 3.6. I will give some of my thoughts later in the post on which are potentially the positive ones but for now I'd like to say that the community matchup chart is highly biased from the start. First, because you can't value matchups only through the prism +3/-3. If I'm well educated on the subject, +3 means 65:35 and -3 means 35:65, correct?

I can name at least 3 or 4 matchups that are way more difficult than this for Bowser: Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, Ivysaur are WAY, WAY MORE difficult than 35:65. More like 10:90 or 20:80 to be polite. Falcon, Toon Link or Marth are at least 30:70... I think you know what I mean and it's not just from Bowser standpoint as an exception. For highly insightful guesses on specific matchups, we should wait for the meta to develop because there are not many good Bowser mains at the time being ; and even then I doubt Odds or Can~D have travelled enough to have a definitive opinion on each matchup. A character like Sonic or Zelda can be played very differently according to the player style ; maybe Odds fought a braindead / too agressive Wolf one day and is know thinking "Wolf's not so hard you know" (doubt it lmao, this is a joke, not a real quote). It's really important to not spread misinformation on the already misinformed Bowser "worst character ever" Bandwagon. There are just so many matchups in the game that the speculation results more from a Theorist point of view than from a Player point of view. And it's sad.

Anyway, how to recognize a difficult matchup for Bowser just with attributes? To my opinion, we can categorized the main counter-bowser traits:

1. good grab game
2. projectiles
3. range and disjointed moves ;
4. fast movement and overall good framedata (good combo game)

I think every character in the game has at least one of these traits, which means Bowser is gonna have a bad time. I also read a lot that if you win neutral, you win the game. This is very true, and this is why Bowser is screwed if played in the same philosophy you play Fox or any other characters in the game. You have to play Bowser with his own cards, which are not that bad when you think of it:

1. godly edgegame
2. powerful punishes
3. respectful CC & armor
4. varied grab game

You can't play Bowser mindlessly, neither you can play against him mindlessly. But in practice, even if Fox has the best neutral in a perfect play he is more inclined to do a mistake. This is why you have to be on point with your punishes. Your goals are clear: you must win the neutral, you must not get hit, you must not approach or very carefully if you really have to.

To be honest I'm baffled when I see Kirby mains thinking that the Bowser matchup is the easiest for them. Whether it's because they fought a careless Bowser one time like it was a cakewalk or because it's pure Bandwagon to say Bowser sucks, I don't understand it in the slightest. For playing this matchup a thousand times and theorizing it just as much, I can't see how Bowser-Kirby could be worse than even. When you know how to play around Final Cutter and anticipate Inhale or Hammer, Kirby won't appear as threatening. Master of gimps? Yeah, it could be problematic so avoid these situations. Dash Attack? If your opponent abuse it, you can punish the bad habit easily. "B-but man, Bowser is combofood in this matchup" like if it was a matchup specificity. On the other side, Kirby dies super fast, he has no range, and if he doesn't find a good opportunity to approach Bowser or punish him, the game will be hell to him. Amusingly, I also think Jigglypuff is a favorable matchup for Bowser mainly for the same reasons. "B-but rest is so easy to land on Bowser". I give you that. Then what? Bowser can survive rest at low percents, and if he dies it leads to the loss of a stock for Puff too. The armor can do wonders here and if you know how to space Fair or Nair, happy you.

Sometimes I dream that Bowser could be the new anti-meta ala DDD, screwing spacies all day... he does well against fast fallers because the punish is freaking hard. It somewhat makes the Captain Falcon matchup doable and it makes Fox/Falco evenish to my taste, which is a really great thing for the fat turtle. Curiously, the only "even matchup" in the community matchup chart is one that I think is kind of hard for Bowser ; Zelda can camp and punish effectively. Shielda is a valid problematic for Bowser as well, so there's that to consider too.

Pit and Sonic seem fair to Bowser, one being underpowered, the other being negatively disjointed (I said that caricaturally because my post is long enough), they have to respect Bowser good traits more than most of the cast. All in all I think half the matchups in this list are misplaced and I wished there were more discussions to save Bowser of an awful reputation. This post is too long, sorry for that. Maybe I'll post my own Bowser Matchup Spread later, just for fun.

TL;DR: Bowser is indeed the worst character in 3.6, it means there are near unwinnable matchups but it doesn't mean he has no positive ones, or at least it's too early to tell when the character is underplayed at Top Level. Please give more time and don't judge a matchup hastily.

On another subject, if Bowser had gained more aerial mobility and better frame data he would have been super scary. I wish.
 

Tobb99

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
111
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Nice post! Maybe go over some MU's you think are very inaccurately placed, and give approximate numbers. Like Kirby and jiggs I believe, and what value you think those MU's have. I doesn't have to be perfect, but more so to correct obvious mistakes. Like Kirby or Jiggs being a positive MU rather than being a -2 and -3 is a huige difference. The reason I'm writing this is that I believe that Bowser's MU spread is very inaccurate, with 0 winning MUs and lots of -3 MUs.

I think it's confusing to try to go back and forth between ratios and plus and minus, so I'm going to use words to clarify my view of the MU numbers as used in the chart. My interpretation of the MU numbers:

0 - even, not much to say but both characters have their chances and options, it could go either way.
examples: Marth - CF, Fox - Falco MU in melee.
+1 - a slight edge to one of the characters.
Examples: CF - Peach, CF - Ice Climbers.
+-2 - a solid advantage for one character. One character has a much easier time than the other, definitely a doable MU, but the disadvantageous have to try hard or know the MU well in order to win this one.
Examples: Puff - Sheik in Melee, Ice Climbers - Sheik in Melee.
+-3 - A broken MU, as I would say. This MU has one character completely dominating by a certain factor, making it ridiculously difficult to win as the disadvantageous. It is possible but you have to play amazingly and know the MU very well in order to win this.
Examples: Icies - Peach in Melee, Marth - Ivysaur or Lucario - DDD in PM.


Personally I think ROB is only a -2. I played against Can~D at Beast 6, and it was tricky as ROB, it was not a free +3 for ROB at least. ROB has lot's of zooning tools against Bowser which I think is a great advantage. But Bowser also got some tools, a great edgeguard game, I have to be tricky recovering as ROB, a character who has a great recovery, if you get hit by the bair your pretty much dead. Edgegaurdig Bowser is kind of easy but still he's deceptively difficult, especially covering a good sweetspot, which every Bowser main should do. Also Bowsers CC is good so you can't recklessly go in with boost-fair approaches, you have to switch up your approaches.

I also play Olimar and I could see that one being tougher for Bowser, especially if you know the MU. He has a hard time removing pikmins, so you can just camp all you want. He also has good grab range and good grab follow-ups. But on the other hand, edgeguards are free, if you can get to that point so to speak, and that may be Bowsers only advantage in the MU, plus that Olimar dies early since he's light. But Bowser's weight doesn't really help him in the MU I feel, his defensive game which doesn't matter much either since Olimar doesn't need to rush down Bowser, he can just chill and throw pikmins and react safely to Bowsers approaches.
 
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