PS fireballs, Upb any cheeky stuff he tries to do. If Mario jumps, he's probably putting himself in a worse spot. This holds true for many chars vs Bowser since they would lose the ability to grab and DD
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Bowser MU discussion
- Thread starter Youngster Joey
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Jacob29
Smash Ace
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- Jul 17, 2013
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Do you know a way of learning to power shield? I don't really know any Mario players and I already find it hard to get the timing right consistently.
Also doesn't a MU that requires one character to use a strict timing shield vs just pressing B indicated a MU imbalance?
Also doesn't a MU that requires one character to use a strict timing shield vs just pressing B indicated a MU imbalance?
Not really? Learning or executing that tool better means that you tend to relieve the pressure and advantage that person would gain in the first place (Does not always hold true but it's a top tier option vs projectiles in general). One underused method for characters to PS easier, is to crawl or dash/DD for spacing and cancel them instantly into shield. Bowser is kind of slow, so you might just settle for walking or crawling PS attempts. I dunno what options Bowser specifically has for clanking fireballs, and/or the varying properties (actual clank vs "overpower"). Playing as Marth vs Mario, I am fairly used to what options will clank and reset me, which ones will eat the fireball, etc. Figure that out for Bowser and you can combine that with shielding/PSing to deal with him better.
The MU has challenges that are way worse than fireballs. Getting grabbed or launched sucks 10x more than fireballs, since those options you can do relatively little to lessen their impact.
The MU has challenges that are way worse than fireballs. Getting grabbed or launched sucks 10x more than fireballs, since those options you can do relatively little to lessen their impact.
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Ya you probably won't be able to do much vs a competent Mario. You can try to trap him once he's at the edge, or read an obvious tornado/cape attempt, but no surprises if you usually can't pressure him offstage in any meaningful way
You should platform camp so that you can avoid fireballs. sorry i am in a hurry i gotta go now.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Powershielding is a lot easier if you either take the spring out of R, or bind x/y (whichever you don't jump with) to shield, and use that. It's not as hard as it seems, with some practice.
FakeKraid
Smash Apprentice
Edge-guarding Mario should be easy if you go deep. He has no way of keeping you out and no safe options for punishing it.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Mario can drop a lot lower than you can go to edgeguard, especially on stages with walls. Run offstage-> fair is still a good option, as is FH fair against him recovering high. You can also make his life hell if his sweetspotting isn't perfect, with bair and dair.
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
Just grab the ledge before he does and know your invincibility frames. He can't sweet spot if you're already there. He'll be forced to jump back to the stage and you can punish from there.
Up-B still auto snaps to the ledge very easily if you're facing the ledge when you Up-B to it.
Up-B still auto snaps to the ledge very easily if you're facing the ledge when you Up-B to it.
Jacob29
Smash Ace
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- Jul 17, 2013
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The problem was, sure I CAN take the ledge.
But if I take it too early he will down-b. If I take it too late I risk being hit by his up-b, or he just walljumps instead.
It isn't like Marth where you know the angle he might try to take, he has his down-b to simply stall your invincibility out.
But if I take it too early he will down-b. If I take it too late I risk being hit by his up-b, or he just walljumps instead.
It isn't like Marth where you know the angle he might try to take, he has his down-b to simply stall your invincibility out.
Down B isn't that great at waiting out your invincibility, if only because it takes so long to complete. You can usually hop back onstage, or regrab the edge if he's in a position that you can't mess with while using Down B. The only times that might be effective, are when he's very low and still has 80% of his options available (DJ, Upb Walljump, Cape Boost, decent wall for normal walljumps, etc). Even then, the duration of the move usually doesn't stop Bowser from refreshing edge invincibility or repositioning as needed. The other options he has, especially with walls included, probably would give you a harder time.
It's not like Bowser can do much about him offstage anyways though
It's not like Bowser can do much about him offstage anyways though
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Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
If Mario is using Down-B to stall, you can swat him out of it pretty easily. Tornado and Cape, while being good stalling techniques, leave him fairly immobile in air. He's a sitting duck.
This is really not as complicated as it seems. There are a lot of recoveries that, while stupid and arguably broken, can still be considered predictable. A lot of problems can be solved by thinking fast and knowing how they work. Like Lucas's tether recovery(or any short-ish tether for that matter). If you RAR off stage, you can Fair to stage spike these short-ish tether attempts. It's easier than it sounds when you know the pattern.
But **** Diddy. **** him and his recovery in particular. XD
This is really not as complicated as it seems. There are a lot of recoveries that, while stupid and arguably broken, can still be considered predictable. A lot of problems can be solved by thinking fast and knowing how they work. Like Lucas's tether recovery(or any short-ish tether for that matter). If you RAR off stage, you can Fair to stage spike these short-ish tether attempts. It's easier than it sounds when you know the pattern.
But **** Diddy. **** him and his recovery in particular. XD
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Jacob29
Smash Ace
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I don't mind the tethers I usually just wait on the ledge and punish them with a fair.
But Mario down-b was in a particular spot that felt awkward to reach. I can't backair him because he would hit me before I hit him due to startup and his position, and he was too close to the stage for me to drop f-air him without him hitting me first again.
Perhaps I am wrong though and just not suited for them.
But Mario down-b was in a particular spot that felt awkward to reach. I can't backair him because he would hit me before I hit him due to startup and his position, and he was too close to the stage for me to drop f-air him without him hitting me first again.
Perhaps I am wrong though and just not suited for them.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fighting against Captain Falcon is the worst thing ever.
Just endless knee combos.
Just endless knee combos.
So how about that ROB match up? It feels like a strange MU that I don't particularly enjoy. Both of ROB's projectiles are very potent in preventing me from doing what I wanna do. Being offstage and recovering isn't TOO difficult, but ROB's dynamic laser can trump me in some way. His top is fairly chunky and doubles as a zoning wall, or how ever you wanna call that.
My main gripe is ROB's overall air pressure. All of those air dashes are truly ridiculous. He seems frequently safe enough to avoid a lot of punishment when he's flying around. His FAIR seems pretty versatile on Bowser as it seems safe on shield when he's air dashing a lot, opens up combos when fastfalled, and can WOP into a killing UAIR (which in itself has fatal trajectories and power) when i'm offstage. His BAIR coupled with air dashes feels like such a big move with great KB that ROB can get away with pretty bad spacing.
I've had some success with well-guessed shield grabs (mostly against FAIR attempts), Nair OOS, and UpB OOS when ROB is air dashing, and thoughtful edgeguarding + Fortress Hog gimps to keep ROB from coming back on stage. I feel that ROB's ability to camp, combo, and pressure Bowser on ground and in the air with aplomb is so much to take on at once though. It's an exhaustingly tedious match up to me and I don't like it :\
My main gripe is ROB's overall air pressure. All of those air dashes are truly ridiculous. He seems frequently safe enough to avoid a lot of punishment when he's flying around. His FAIR seems pretty versatile on Bowser as it seems safe on shield when he's air dashing a lot, opens up combos when fastfalled, and can WOP into a killing UAIR (which in itself has fatal trajectories and power) when i'm offstage. His BAIR coupled with air dashes feels like such a big move with great KB that ROB can get away with pretty bad spacing.
I've had some success with well-guessed shield grabs (mostly against FAIR attempts), Nair OOS, and UpB OOS when ROB is air dashing, and thoughtful edgeguarding + Fortress Hog gimps to keep ROB from coming back on stage. I feel that ROB's ability to camp, combo, and pressure Bowser on ground and in the air with aplomb is so much to take on at once though. It's an exhaustingly tedious match up to me and I don't like it :\
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
I have something to add to what I had posted about vs Fox, that was brought to my remembrance last Tuesday. don't loose your cool. lol
Hinichii.ez.™
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What's the mk match up like
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
MK has a good chance of 0-deathing us with tech chases/grabs/combos. Bowser doesn't like grabs. However, we can out-range him with most of our attacks and do pretty well in neutral if we play smart. Also MK's weight/fall-speed makes it easy for us to combo him. His great recovery hurts our edgeguarding strength a bit, but if we're diligent about it, we can keep him off and let him drop like a rock. I'd say the MU is pretty even.
This is just a shot in the dark and based on my experiences but maybe 55:45 Bowser's favor. I only base it on mine because I actually haven't seen any other prominent Bowser vs. Meta Knight except Odds. And he also won. ;o And I don't know who the MK was. lolol
I'm sure it could be easily in MK's favor, Just haven't seen enough that particular MU.
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Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
Just curious as to what characters are bowser's worst 3 matchups in bowser main's opinion?
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
The MK I played was really, really bad at the MU. I don't know why he refuses to simply DD grab and 0-death me, but whatever.
MU is far in MK's favor, but only if he has a clue how to play it and can combo consistently.
Similarly with ROB, he has 4 of the things Bowser likes least: great spacing tools, a significant item game, spammable projectiles, and a strong grab game. That MU is also ridiculous, if maybe winnable.
You may notice a theme of me pointing out MUs that are terrible for Bowser - that's not salt or anything, Bowser is just legitimately really terrible in the current patch.
We have at least 5 0-100 MUs, that are therefore tied
CF, ZSS, Ivysaur, Mewtwo, Link are all completely unwinnable if the other guy plays the MU right. CF gets kinda crushed if he doesn't understand it or doesn't know how to do late aerials, and Bowser can run all over bad Mewtwos -- ZSS, Ivy, and Link are probably the most braindead ezmode counters to Bowser if for some reason you need only 3.
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Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
10-90 maybe. But other than that I agree. Only thing I would do is replace CF with Diddy. CF is more manageable in my opinion because his recovery isn't stupid. We have 0-deaths on hit with him as long as we edgeguard appropriately which is a lot harder to do against Deep Kong. Yeah, CF can 0-death us easier than we can him, but it's one of those where you have to be stupid patient and great at reads. He definitely has the advantage, but it isn't impossible and I don't see him in the top 5 hardest. I wouldn't mind putting him at number 6 though. lol.
ilu Odds. Missed u bby.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Fair enough. 9.1/10 would agree again
love you too bbygurl
let's MM in the ditto sometime. low stakes. $100k?
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
100k? I was thinking 1 mil. But if that's all the money you have...</3
I can see MK having more of an advantage than what I said, though. I wouldn't call it terribly hard though. I'd fight any swordsman any day. I think our hardest close combat MUs are Ganon, Falcon, and DK. I'm totally fine with fighting the swordsmen and Wario. Even DDD to an extent.
That being said, the only reason I have a hard time with DK might be a combination of my MU inexperience with him and his STUPID frame data. It's ALMOST like someone that mains him designed him or something...<3 I'm sure it's more manageable when I learn more of the MU though. Ganon would be the easiest on that list of hard CC MUs for me. Then DK and Falcon.
Anyone want to talk about what non-projectile characters they have trouble with and why? These should be something we learn since we at least have Fire Breath. Though, flame-cancelling seems almost useless against CF.
Then I'll explain just why I think we have decent MUs against the Swordsmen. ;3 Except maybe MK?
I can see MK having more of an advantage than what I said, though. I wouldn't call it terribly hard though. I'd fight any swordsman any day. I think our hardest close combat MUs are Ganon, Falcon, and DK. I'm totally fine with fighting the swordsmen and Wario. Even DDD to an extent.
That being said, the only reason I have a hard time with DK might be a combination of my MU inexperience with him and his STUPID frame data. It's ALMOST like someone that mains him designed him or something...<3 I'm sure it's more manageable when I learn more of the MU though. Ganon would be the easiest on that list of hard CC MUs for me. Then DK and Falcon.
Anyone want to talk about what non-projectile characters they have trouble with and why? These should be something we learn since we at least have Fire Breath. Though, flame-cancelling seems almost useless against CF.
Then I'll explain just why I think we have decent MUs against the Swordsmen. ;3 Except maybe MK?
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
Considering only two diddy mains utilize chain throw extensions into footstool banana resets, is the m.u really that bad? Also I find pivot grabs work best for punishing diddy, and if u have decent timing, command grab should catch him out of up b as well, and if trouble with the character continues, there is always pm3.5. Surprised no samus on the list.
Bones can we get some friendlies at South Carolina? And to answer your dk question, very easy to do combos and guarantees dependent on your character's percent. For me I am safe from grabs from 40-56% auto dead if grabbed at 69-74% and he has a punch. You should play a while, dk isn't too bad to deal with, just don't let him running nair, leads to free jab jab grab
Bones can we get some friendlies at South Carolina? And to answer your dk question, very easy to do combos and guarantees dependent on your character's percent. For me I am safe from grabs from 40-56% auto dead if grabbed at 69-74% and he has a punch. You should play
a while, dk isn't too bad to deal with, just don't let him running nair, leads to free jab jab grab
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Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
I guess the hardest thing I have with Diddy is the MU inexperience too. That and the recovery. Without the recovery I wouldn't even put him in top-5 hardest...but if I had enough practice guarding him, that probably wouldn't be a problem even in this version I guess.
I actually can't make it to SCV. I need to update that post. :/ I really wish I could but I'll definitely make it to SBBT7 in November.
I honestly don't find Samus to be that hard (inb4 all the Samus's you fight are stupid). ZSS, definitely.
November marks the end of my tournament Hiatus and the beginning of Bowser's true reign of terror. I'll be bringing a lot of things to the table and showing just what he's capable of...and what he HAS to do against these stupid MUs...ugh. ;o; Not impossible...just really long and in need of patient play.
Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
See you after the hiatus then, and can show the extra extensions I thought of that negate Bowser's nair armor and works on most heavies
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
10/10 advice. Would read again.
Nah, to be fair, this is really close to the truth.
You have to be stupid patient and find openings when you can. Ivysaur is too good at walling and Bowser doesn't have many tools to get in. Try Flame Canceling when you can, DI left/right/away mix-up to avoid the Vinewhip/Solar Beam. Poke with down tilt if you can get in and learn to Powershield things. Razor Leaf is the hardest projectile to Powershield imo and was the first one I learned to Powershield. It stops her from charging at your spread cheeks every time she throws out a leaf. You can also try Flame Canceling that. Also keep in mind of any mix-ups she uses other than rushing. Put out as much pressure as you can.
If you can get her off stage, and see her using Dair jumps, rush out to Fair her away again; just be aware of any defensive aerials she uses to stop the edgeguard and bait them out if you see them more than once. Our Klaw's head-butt throw into down-b canceled up-air kills pretty early on most stages. Just keep them guessing on the DI with the back throw too.
tl:dr Get her off stage. Ivy's neutral game beast as ****
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Yeah, I try to play patient, but when I do I almost always platform camp so that I can just platform drop into an aerial instead of using laggy grounded attacks. This helps avoid the razor leaf to dash grab, however Ivysaur has so many tools in dealing with platform camping like up-b, seed bomb, ect. Bowser's under 100% ledge attack works really well in edgeguarding her, as I have taken off stocks before just by doing it over and over again until she cant tether to the ledge anymore. I find it incredibly hard to deal with her Bair when I am trying to recover, as I just get swatted away over and over again. Most of the people I play at tournament are Ivy, Lucario, Lucas, Mario, and Diddy mains so I am trying to pick up Pikachu as a secondary to play as in these matchups. Thanks for the tips!
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Don't play Bowser. Seriously. Spend like half an hour learning to play a scrubby Diddy or Pikachu or something. Anyone claiming this MU is remotely winnable, doesn't have a decent Ivy in their region.
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Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
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- 530
Well Bones I wasn't giving MU advice, I was just answering his question which was how do you avoid the up-b or solar beam after a throw.
And the for real answer is pray they mess up. it isn't like we have any choice in whether or not we get hit, it's up to the Ivy player to do something wrong.
And the for real answer is pray they mess up. it isn't like we have any choice in whether or not we get hit, it's up to the Ivy player to do something wrong.
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
Reflex isn't a decent Ivy? @.@
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
He's made it extremely clear that he doesn't think the MU favors Ivy very much, so probably not. That said, I haven't seen any videos of him for a very long time -- maybe he's just got a huge blind spot in that matchup, and is otherwise good.