Bowser MU discussion

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah Wario can be rough because platform camping is normally one of your best/safest options, but against Wario it's suicide.

 

[FakeKraid]

Also, I don't know if this has ever been discussed, but Bowser's Dash Attack just destroys Falco. It plows through shines and lasers; you can also juggle him with other Dash Attacks after you land the first one. Falco is Bowser's best Spacie MU in my opinion and my favorite to play against. :D Dash Attack/Dash Grab mix up is an underrated tool that can help in a few MUs but REALLY shines(lol) through in the Falco MU.

Personally I like the Fox matchup better because Fox has even fewer ways to break Bowser's armor and/or kill him than Falco does, but it's not that far off in either case. A godlike Spacey can still ruin your day but there aren't really that many of those and casual/intermediate Spacey players have a rough time against Bowser. Probably Wolf has it best because his zoning and knockback are good enough to work around Bowser's strengths.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Yeah Wario can be rough because platform camping is normally one of your best/safest options, but against Wario it's suicide.

What gives you that idea?
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Also as far as Fox goes, the only reason I don't like that MU as much is because I can't take away his speed (one of his neutral game strengths). But I can invalidate both the lasers and shine that Falco attempts. =p As far as "godlike" Spacey mains go, I'd feel comfortable in taking one on.

Wolf is the only one I have next to no MU experience with. I just watch Chillin and Rat. lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

We outspace wario pretty hard (and probably win the MU by quite a bit) but his command grab is sick. Your shield is not safe, so playing bowser against him is a pretty different animal to normal.

 

[Tamadrummer1337]

Any specific things to do when facing ness? He's one of my hardest match up's and always seem to get destroyed by him. Power shielding is nice but pretty unrealistic hitting every single PK fire

 

[FakeKraid]

As far as "godlike" Spacey mains go, I'd feel comfortable in taking one on.

I've never lost to a Fox at all except for my training partner once. As for Falco, I've only lost to Cyrain, and I don't know if I would still lose now if I played him again (it was literally the first time I'd fought even a competent Falco in PM). Hell, I don't even know if he still plays PM anymore. My point being that when I said there weren't many godlike Spaceys in PM right now, I really meant it - beyond the Melee stars who picked them up in PM because it was like easy mode, I don't know if any new ones have come around at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, I need some advice concerning Bowser's Matchup against Roy and Marth. Specifically, recovery situations.

Whenever one of these Fire Emblem cast members gets me off stage at a higher angle, I have a lot of trouble coming back out of the fear of tipper/any forward smash from them. Bowser seems awfully limited because of his lack of much vertical recovery, so I always feel like I'm pressured into getting a sword to the face.

Any tips?

 

[Mr. Bones]

Any tips?

Lol. Tips. I see what you did there.

As far as recovering from a higher angle, Down-B to ledge is the most common method. It's fast and has armor to it. From the ledge, Bowser has a nice set of options to work with. If you're under 100%, his get-up attack is always a threat. A lot of people will retreat just to avoid it. Some people will panic and shield near the ledge(near enough for you to drop->double jump->side-b back throw). And you can also use this method to Flame Cancel back to the ledge and pressure them away. You could also ledge-hop down air.

As far as the stage-game part of the MU, I feel Bowser has the advantage. You need to use Flame Cancels and Down Tilts to intercept any grab-attempts. If they approach with Forward Air, our F-tilt and our own F-air can out-range it.

The best part about the MU is our ability to edgeguard them. For the most part, they only have one direction to go when recovering: up. If they're recovering from a low angle, we can stand near the ledge and use Down-B to auto-snap to it (make sure you're not using any down/away inputs on the control stick so you don't accidentally fly past the ledge). The armor from the Down-B eats through Marth/Roy's recovery and does serious damage. Sometimes you can even kill them off the top.

You can also just crouch at the ledge and Down-tilt but that won't always kill at the same percentages that Down-B does. ;P If you get used to Down-B timing against their low-angled recoveries, it gets easier and easier.

If they recover higher, just fly out and Fair them. Remember, our Fair out-ranges theirs at the tipper (Yes, we have a tipper too), so get comfortable with the spacing.

 

[Deleted member]

Huh, I didn't even realize Bowser had a tipper. I always saw it as just a wave of pain! Haha!

Anyways, I honestly don't know what flame canceling is. Can you describe it to me and how you perform it, as well as its other uses, etc? Thanks!

 

[Mr. Bones]

Yep, only on his Fair though. That slash line in front of his claws has more power/knock-back.

Flame Canceling is using Bowser's Fire Breath just before landing. It cancels the start-up frames and makes his fire come out instantly. You can threaten Flame Canceling with empty short-hops among other things. And it's realllllyyy good against our MUs that are close combat like us, but without the semi-projectile. (Ganon/Sonic/Meta Knight/Marth/Roy/Ike/ etc.) You get the picture. One thing to do would be to drop from the ledge(quickly) and double jump onto the stage with flame cancel.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h_GJ7NHEA70#t=147 you can see the drop-down double jump here, but I use it to Fair him away instead. You basically do this but double jump to the stage and use Fire Breath right before you land. So you land right near the ledge and flame cancel to push someone away. Also if you keep watching this, you can see some Randal-canceled Down-B shenanigans in game 2. lol)

(I actually use it here at the beginning of the match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtuLlmaCQxE and a few during game 2)

 

[Matthew]

Why are you getting hit with that when you should be fairing Puff in the face for daring to get remotely close to you?

Bowser's Fair >> Puff, it's one of the complete MU reversals from melee since Bowser now wins imo

Assuming that you do get hit with Pound, DI hard behind Puff and try to mash out a bair to trade with Puff's attempted follow up (since Bowser usually wins trades). if you go too far away for Puff to safely follow up, you get to reset the positioning and go back to outspacing that ****ing balloon.

As for the thread...

Just from my small amount of experince, and these are listed in no particular order in their respective classifications

Characters i think solidly beat bowser

Characters that might beat bowser

Characters i think are even with bowser

Characters i think bowser beats


Fox most certainly beats Bowser as long as he doesn't try for dumb combo video stuff

Sheik is practically designed to beat heavy, large, slow characters, good reason to have a secondary

Link and Snake beat Bowser for the same reasons but in different ways; camping and zoning

Falcon, Lucario and Marth all have to hit confirm and can touch of death the big turtle, but they have to work for it

The Mario Bros have some obvious advantages but only a few small weaknesses, i would consider placing Luigi higher or lower if i got a little more experience

Zelda's Toes are a nightmare, one of the few MUs I've played where Bowser doesn't want to trade hits

MetaKnight should beat Bowser, a lot of damage can be racked up quickly on such a large character

Ganondorf is sort of stage dependant imo, as is TL and Peach. a back and forth dynamic rather than a straight win/lose MU number imo

Squirtle feels even to myself and the new Squirtle main in my city lol, i just have that to base it off of, could be quite wrong

Falco is a MU that I see as dead even, they both **** eachother up really hard and have the tools to counteract eachother pretty freely

with Ike, Gonzales and I (The player who started the Ike descussion thread on the old PM forums) both thought that this was an even MU back in the 2.1 days. I've left the character there because I have yet to play a decent 2.6b Ike. that one is subject to change, but the adjustments and balances to Ike may have caused the MU to swing in Bowser's favor *shrugs*

My reasoning on Puff is probably obvious from my rant above lol

Ivy can be annoying, but Bowser can straight up ignore a lot of it's zoning attempts and punishes it really hard

G&W and Sonic are my only theory crafts on the list lol

Any characters not listed are ones I have yet to play against in serious matches

I honestly think that bowser destroys fox. Practically all of his attacks can edgeguard him (especially the under 100% ledge attack), and bowser can crouch armor his shine. Fox also cannot up throw up air bowser (at least not to finish him off).

 

[Deleted member]

Yep, only on his Fair though. That slash line in front of his claws has more power/knock-back.

Flame Canceling is using Bowser's Fire Breath just before landing. It cancels the start-up frames and makes his fire come out instantly. You can threaten Flame Canceling with empty short-hops among other things. And it's realllllyyy good against our MUs that are close combat like us, but without the semi-projectile. (Ganon/Sonic/Meta Knight/Marth/Roy/Ike/ etc.) You get the picture. One thing to do would be to drop from the ledge(quickly) and double jump onto the stage with flame cancel.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h_GJ7NHEA70#t=147 you can see the drop-down double jump here, but I use it to Fair him away instead. You basically do this but double jump to the stage and use Fire Breath right before you land. So you land right near the ledge and flame cancel to push someone away. Also if you keep watching this, you can see some Randal-canceled Down-B shenanigans in game 2. lol)

(I actually use it here at the beginning of the match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtuLlmaCQxE and a few during game 2)

Thanks so much! This is gonna help out my Bowser game a lot.

I honestly think that bowser destroys fox. Practically all of his attacks can edgeguard him (especially the under 100% ledge attack), and bowser can crouch armor his shine. Fox also cannot up throw up air bowser (at least not to finish him off).

Bowser against Fox is such a fun matchup! Take him to Yoshi's and it's absolutely no contest, either. I beat a really good Fox in tournament this past week, actually.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Thanks so much! This is gonna help out my Bowser game a lot.

No problem. Also, watch "Jaime HR", he's another really good Bowser.

Bowser against Fox is such a fun matchup! Take him to Yoshi's and it's absolutely no contest, either. I beat a really good Fox in tournament this past week, actually.

Most won't let you take them to Yoshi's though. XD But I do agree. Despite what the earlier discussions mentioned, I think Bowser has an advantage over Fox and Falco. Falco is my absolute favorite MU. It feels free every time. But...if you add an "n" to the name...it changes entirely. uch..Luckily I'm learning the MU everyday so...yay?

 

[Shadow Huan]

I honestly think that bowser destroys fox. Practically all of his attacks can edgeguard him (especially the under 100% ledge attack), and bowser can crouch armor his shine. Fox also cannot up throw up air bowser (at least not to finish him off).

Bowser destroys stupid Foxes, and by "stupid" I mean the ones who seemingly know techskill and nothing else. if Fox plays lame, lasers, runs away and uses said speed to appropriately punish your approach... you loose. if he tries for combos and general aggressiveness, doesn't respect Bowser's armor, reach or priority... Bowser wins

Fox has ways to not care about crouch armor, (like lasering, and i think bair beats it) and a lot of attacks beat or clank with the "invulnerable" ledge attack (I've been knocked out of it by ivy's fsmash)

upthrow upair indeed doesn't work, so if the Fox realizes that and isn't playing on autopilot, he will start downthrowing into stuff, like tech chases, since Bowser's tech is booty buttcheeks. or, he can upthrow to nothing, run away and shoot more lasers.

why would a smart Fox who knows the MU try to drill shine a crouching Bowser?

Bowser does indeed win on small stages though, and it's a satisfying victory. but in Bowser's favor? I disagree. it is not as lopsided as it was in melee for sure, in a lot of ways PM Bowser is practically a different character in comparison.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, Bowser destroys stupid foxes. Smart ones are next to unbeatable though if they have the patience to just laser camp, DD and grab.

 

[Deleted member]

Most won't let you take them to Yoshi's though. XD But I do agree. Despite what the earlier discussions mentioned, I think Bowser has an advantage over Fox and Falco. Falco is my absolute favorite MU. It feels free every time. But...if you add an "n" to the name...it changes entirely. uch..Luckily I'm learning the MU everyday so...yay?

He didn't have a choice. It was Quivo, who beat me the previous game when I was Mewtwo. He banned stages according to his own preferences to fight Mewtwo, then I picked Yoshi's, asked if he was staying Fox, then Boom, Bowser. He didn't know I played this character as well.

 

[Jacob29]

I too agree that we lose to very top Fox players. But any less than top fox's? It's a pretty funny matchup for us as we can kill him so quickly.

 

[Matthew]

Bowser destroys stupid Foxes, and by "stupid" I mean the ones who seemingly know techskill and nothing else. if Fox plays lame, lasers, runs away and uses said speed to appropriately punish your approach... you loose. if he tries for combos and general aggressiveness, doesn't respect Bowser's armor, reach or priority... Bowser wins

Fox has ways to not care about crouch armor, (like lasering, and i think bair beats it) and a lot of attacks beat or clank with the "invulnerable" ledge attack (I've been knocked out of it by ivy's fsmash)

upthrow upair indeed doesn't work, so if the Fox realizes that and isn't playing on autopilot, he will start downthrowing into stuff, like tech chases, since Bowser's tech is booty buttcheeks. or, he can upthrow to nothing, run away and shoot more lasers.

why would a smart Fox who knows the MU try to drill shine a crouching Bowser?

Bowser does indeed win on small stages though, and it's a satisfying victory. but in Bowser's favor? I disagree. it is not as lopsided as it was in melee for sure, in a lot of ways PM Bowser is practically a different character in comparison.

If you look at if from that perspective, then the matchup can be in fox's favor. Like you are saying, it is important to know the matchup. I played baconpancakes before with my bowser and the match was pretty even until I got shinespiked

 

[Shadow Huan]

Yeah, Bowser destroys stupid foxes. Smart ones are next to unbeatable though if they have the patience to just laser camp, DD and grab.

yeah, if they don't get antsy then it's pretty much a lock for Fox, unless you're on a stage where you can catch him, or bully him into a bad situation

He didn't have a choice. It was Quivo, who beat me the previous game when I was Mewtwo. He banned stages according to his own preferences to fight Mewtwo, then I picked Yoshi's, asked if he was staying Fox, then Boom, Bowser. He didn't know I played this character as well.

was this set recorded? I'd like to see it

I too agree that we lose to very top Fox players. But any less than top fox's? It's a pretty funny matchup for us as we can kill him so quickly.

it doesn't have to be a "top" Fox, it just has to be one who knows the MU imo. Funny story actually. sometime last year I got to play a Melee Fox named Roman in some serious casuals (Was the first competitive player I ever played, way back in '08), and he beat me pretty handily in Melee until I warmed up, and even then he won more than half the matches. good, fast tech skill, good reaction times.

then we played Project M, and I picked Bowser. and won every single match. he asked me how Fox beats Bowser, and I told him. The last match we played in the MU, he took me to Distant Planet and laser camped for one stock. and still lost, because he went back to aggro, traded too many hits and died.

I don't think most Foxes like not being able to dictate a MU with their tech skill.

If you look at if from that perspective, then the matchup can be in fox's favor. Like you are saying, it is important to know the matchup. I played baconpancakes before with my bowser and the match was pretty even until I got shinespiked

in my small experience it's not easy for a Fox to get Bowser into a shine spike postition. it still sucks

What do you guys think of the ZSS MU? It makes me sad inside, feels completely hopeless for Bowser. to the point that I switch off to Mewtwo or Marth to fight her. those whip moves are hard to get around when you weight 2 tons lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

What do you guys think of the ZSS MU? It makes me sad inside, feels completely hopeless for Bowser. to the point that I switch off to Mewtwo or Marth to fight her. those whip moves are hard to get around when you weight 2 tons lol

It's completely hopeless.

 

[Jacob29]

What do you guys think of the ZSS MU? It makes me sad inside, feels completely hopeless for Bowser. to the point that I switch off to Mewtwo or Marth to fight her. those whip moves are hard to get around when you weight 2 tons lol

Apparently ZSS is Marth's worst MU as well. Being a Bowser/Marth main vs a friend who mains ZSS. I'm not happy.

 

[Shadow Huan]

^^ now that is interesting.

maybe I should lurk over at the Marth board and see why they say that. I can see it being true potentially

 

[Hobobloke]

Speaking of terrible matchups does anyone have some advice for fighting Zelda?

 

[Frost | Odds]

attack the mines. repeat x1000000000000

 

[Shadow Huan]

I would also suggest playing really disrespectfully in the face of Zelda's stuff; try and get in her face, use the heavy armored moves and go for trades as much as you can manage. kill her off the top. attack or crawl through the mines when you can do it safely. do your best to not get kicked, and if you do, good DI goes a long way.

all that aside, I haven't played the MU since 2.6b though, so with the nerfs it might be a different MU now

 

[Mr. Bones]

^Nah, this is essentially right for now to. Basically play her like Link. Pressure her as best as you can and don't give her the space or time to set up camp. Just use your pressure options intelligently.

 

[Jacob29]

^Nah, this is essentially right for now to. Basically play her like Link.

so lose?

 

[Mr. Bones]

Ugh...

Basically with Zelda you want to keep near enough to punish a Din's Fire while being just far enough to avoid a kick. Push her into a corner, narrow her movement options. Even if she tries her close-range/offensive Farore's Wind, you can dodge and punish.

As far as Link goes, learn to power shield more. lol. Otherwise just threaten his space and don't give him time to set up camp. Stay near enough to punish him when he throws out the dreaded boomerang and other various ****.

It's fine if you're having trouble with the MU and all. But it'd probably be more beneficial to the thread if you went into more detail about what exact situations are ****ing you over so that we can work on it from there. I'm not saying these MUs are simple at all. In fact, they're definitely frustrating and repetitive.

But they're not impossible.

 

[Frost | Odds]

For a lot of matchups (like link) imo you NEED either X or Y bound to shield, or the spring taken out of one of your triggers to powershield. It really helps a lot to be able to consistently powershield, and make the pecker question why he's throwing things at all.

 

[Jacob29]

You can't powershield Z-Air back to him, which is what has caused me the most problems against Link.

It's quick, more range than anything we have, covers a lot of options.

 

[Mr. Bones]

His Z-air is quick, but it's just like our Flame Cancels. It requires him to jump. It can't be power-shielded, but you can still safely shield-rush his Z-air and punish it when he lands.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think you might also be able to dash attack him through the zair if he spaces even slightly imperfectly.

Regardless, you probably shouldn't be playing Bowser against Link. =<

 

[Mr. Bones]

I disagree. If everybody shies away from the harder MUs, it'll be impossible to learn more from them. Part of that is just my character loyalty I guess, but I also just want to learn everything I can about the Bowser MUs.

 

[Jacob29]

Except unlike our Flame Cancels, he doesn't have to land.

and it doesn't take him 6 frames to jump. He can jump, then Z-Air. We have to jump, fall, then press b before we land.

Maybe you can dash attack through it.

But I am suspicious that it outranges dash attack.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I disagree. If everybody shies away from the harder MUs, it'll be impossible to learn more from them. Part of that is just my character loyalty I guess, but I also just want to learn everything I can about the Bowser MUs.

Ordinarily I'd agree entirely, but there are a bunch of matchups that are just literally 100% unwinnable for bowser, provided the other guy has a clue what he's doing and doesn't SD 4 times. Link is one of them.

It's seriously a waste of time.

 

[Hobobloke]

Ordinarily I'd agree entirely, but there are a bunch of matchups that are just literally 100% unwinnable for bowser, provided the other guy has a clue what he's doing and doesn't SD 4 times. Link is one of them.

It's seriously a waste of time.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what these matchups are.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo, Link, Ivysaur, ZSS.

Those are only the matchups that I've played into the ground and just found no solutions for. The more we develop those metas, the worse they look for Bowser. ZSS and Link MUs seem winnable or even reasonable on WarioWare and maybe Yoshi's, but I'd still be extremely disinclined to chance it. Any other map against someone who knows the matchup is suicide.

Possibly Lucas (very dependent on stage and how patient he is/willing to lame you out with combos from grab and zair)

Samus may be in the same category, but there's no local samuses good enough to consistently take 2 stocks off my bowser, much less any patient/good enough to win with zair/missile/grab only.

The other matchups all seem winnable from what I've seen, though many are incredibly frustrating if the opponent is actually willing to play patiently and win via camping. Sheik, Fox, and Metaknight are all great examples of MUs that look amazing for Bowser until the opponent figures out how to play against Bowser, then they instantly become awful. A lot of people dramatically overrate Bowser specifically as a consequence of seeing impatient players get pooped on.

We do still straight up hose a few characters (mostly chars that he can armor through/that can't camp him out like Jiggs, Peach, Roy, Pikachu) but I'd still really prefer more balanced matchups overall. Bowser's size, comboability, and reliance on his spacing/the armor mechanic result in a super polarized matchup spread.

 

[Rags]

So anyone know anything about the Squirtle vs bowser matchup? and also the Pikachu matchup? I guess I can throw in the mario/doc one too, need a refresher on it

 

[Matthew]

So anyone know anything about the Squirtle vs bowser matchup? and also the Pikachu matchup? I guess I can throw in the mario/doc one too, need a refresher on it

I am pretty sure that bowser can crouch armor many of pikachu's approach options, such as his fair or thunderjolt (or you could powershield thunderjolt). you should pay attention to how the opposing pikachu recovers because you can easily intercept with a bair, or if you really think you got a good read, than you can intercept with an up-air. Just pay attention to whether the opponent overshoots or sweetspots the ledge with quick attack and if you are playing against a pikachu who loves to use side special in his or her recovery, than you can probably go offstage and intercept with a fair or something.

Mario can be a difficult matchup for bowser as mario has so many recovery mixups, it can be difficult to edgeguard. Definitely get good at powershielding his projectiles, it will pay off in the long run because mario's fireballs are a very good approach option. If you don't think you can powershield, than just crouch armor them. be careful when you use the fast ledge attack on mario onstage because if he shoots a fireball, the attack will clank, and it will leave you vulnerable to a free punish.

And a very good tip with bowser is to platform camp. I have seen videos of DJ nintendo bowser in melee and he often stays on platforms so that he can punish enemies with a platform drop aerial. Also if you are above the enemy you can drop to them with a koopa klaw command grab.

I hope these tips help. I have not had the time to go to any tournaments so I have only been playing against CPUs other than for a few exceptions. However I am going to a tournament on Sunday so I will see if I can do any good. I hope this post helps!

 

[Jacob29]

So how do we aim to play against Mario? What's the game plan?

After a guy char switched to him I was really struggling to get hits in and got combos way too hard. I also found it really hard edgueguarding him, like REALLY hard.