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Bowser MU discussion

Jacob29

Smash Ace
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Jul 17, 2013
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530
Yeah nair could work.

Didn't try that much ledgeplay I will be honest, but even if I did can't he just spam waddles if he has a lead? What purpose does he have in challenging our ledgeplay.

We can edgeguard him pretty easy though - problem was on netplay I was messing the timings up i'v eonly recently started playing on net
 

CPU?

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can anyone share info with the diddy match up?
Diddy isn't really played against much differently than other characters other than the bananas.
Things to note.
1. your dash attack beats his, as well as your down and forward tilt.
2. there isn't much he can do to beat you in the air if you space your aerials properly
3. learning to tech his dash attacks makes the match up a whole lot easier.
4. if he doesn't sweet spot the ledge with his recovery you get a free command grab because his side-b tanks the rockets.
5. try and make him come to you to try and avoid the bananas as much as possible.
6. don't be afraid to use back or forward air to try and gimp him.
7. be very cautious of his spike as he will probably try and do it to you being Bowser is huge.
 

C2w

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New York, New York
can anyone share info with the diddy match up?
Diddy isn't really played against much differently than other characters other than the bananas.
Things to note.
1. your dash attack beats his, as well as your down and forward tilt.
2. there isn't much he can do to beat you in the air if you space your aerials properly
3. learning to tech his dash attacks makes the match up a whole lot easier.
4. if he doesn't sweet spot the ledge with his recovery you get a free command grab because his side-b tanks the rockets.
5. try and make him come to you to try and avoid the bananas as much as possible.
6. don't be afraid to use back or forward air to try and gimp him.
7. be very cautious of his spike as he will probably try and do it to you being Bowser is huge.
Thank you! i will keep this in mind
 

Kerfuffle

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Dedede is an uphill battle for sure. I'd say use side b armor to get in on his ftilts, then just try to keep him in the air. Edgeguarding him is a pain in the ass, but just taking the ledge from him goes a long way.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I am led to believe that this would be useful information:

Flame Breath stops a lot of Ivysaur's ground game and prevents Ivysaur from getting aggressive. Stops Razor Leaf and grab--Stops most everything but fullhop aerials (F-Air is the biggest threat). It's a good enough reason to shorthop in neutral more against Ivysaur, as if you're in the air and she tries her standard options, you can actually react to a lot of them. Flame cancel Neutral-B against many ground options, waveland to help with spacing/unpredictability (Bowser's waveland isn't terrible; it's the jumpsquat that makes his wavedash bad), and double-jump F-Air to swat Ivysaur fullhop F-Air attempts. You have options; Ivysaur shouldn't get to do whatever she wants.

Since you're referring to it as "infinite grab range," I'm going to assume you mean Ivysaur's Standing Grab, given that Ivysaur's Dash Grab range is only slightly bigger than the average Jump-Cancel Grab. As such, I would definitely tell you to spotdodge; his spotdodge is improved from Melee, and Ivysaur Standing Grab has a lot of endlag.

Ivysaur Standing Grab comes out on Frame 14(/45, if you were wondering), and Bowser's spotdodge invincibility starts on Frame 3(/32, with invincibility lasting up to Frame 20). If you only managed to avoid the grab via spotdodge -just- in time (as in, your invincibility starts at the same frame that Ivysaur's grab starts), your frame advantage would be +1. Even better if you manage to anticipate it at all, which should be relatively easy considering optimal grab spacing is past optimal most-other-things spacing for Ivysaur. Bowser also has the unique trait of being completely unfazed by Razor Leaf while crouching/crawling due to his Crawl Armor, so he can move to throw off the spacing for said Standing Grab.

Also (and this is much, much more important for the matchup), Bowser's Dash Attack hitbox starts on Frame 10, has Medium Armor from Frame 1 to after the sweetspot ends, and has literally DOUBLE the range of Ivysaur Standing Grab from neutral position (technically the horizontal size is the same, but the lunge forward is a huge change, too). This move is your go-to for starting something in this matchup, as it plows through literally all of Ivysaur's normal spacing attacks. I'm testing right now and it armors through sweetspot F-Air at 130% (before the hit). You can also do an instant Dash Attack via C-Stick Down as soon as you start a run, so you can avoid an accidental F-Smash that way. Yes, this option is susceptible to shield (and therefore shieldgrab), but Bowser's Dash Grab has roughly the same amount of range and functions as his approaching mix-up.

And for all it's worth, my opinions often differ from the PMBR as a whole; I'm just one guy. We try not to make significant changes based on "tiers;" being a good character is not inherently bad for the game, but being polarizing certainly can be.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Just looked it up via PSA files--It appears to be Light on 1-9 and Medium on 10-13. Good catch either way.
 

Abeebo

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I've never really considered Bowser to be better than Ganon. They're definitely much more similar than they are different, but I've always felt Ganon's mobility and speed (in comparison to Bowser) really gives him an advantage over Bowser. If Ganon ever blocks a failed Up-B he is guaranteed a Wiz Kick every single time unless you're immediately going to Fortress Hog. Couple that with the fact that, on a 1-to-1 basis, Ganon actually hits harder than Bowser and is safer when approaching, I think Ganon comes out slightly ahead of Bowser.
I think you're giving Ganon way too much credit over Bowser. Yes, Ganon has more mobility and speed, but NOT a significant amount over Bowser. In fact, Bowser has a faster running speed than Ganon, and they're pretty dang close in a lot of properties: (http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1u57q8/database_project_m_30_database/)

Most of Bowser's attacks and his dash grab have more range than Ganon as well. When you factor in all the armor that Bowser has + a land-cancellable semi-projectile in NeutralB, Ganon is still going to have a hard time approaching. A failed UpB is 100% on the Bowser player and is NOT a specific MU advantage. If Bowser does camp on the ledge, there's actually very little Ganon can do against that. While Ganon has better KO power, Bowser still has very high KO power AND a much stronger ledge game to gimp Ganon's poor recovery. Still, Ganon is no slouch in any sense of the word and can still punish incredibly hard, tank many attacks, has a deadly tech chase in SideB, and possibly has advantages in certain stages. If this matchup is in anyone's favor though, it would be 6:4 Bowser maximum.
 
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Frost | Odds

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Bowser's ledge game is definitely much stronger in general, but in that MU, they're even, if not leaning in Ganon's favor. His meteor is pretty much a guaranteed kill on Bowser at any percent, as is the uair spike.

Bowser also has a really really really hard time dealing with the flame choke, due to his enormous size and godawful jump speed.
 

Abeebo

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Flame Choke is way good and definitely strong against Bowser, but is really not that hard to deal with as it's just a small grab box. Ganon aerials are pretty dangerous, but Bowser does have the ability to overcome those with a precisely timed Nair armor or Fair tipper (which should outrange most of Ganon's aerials anyway). Bowser's jump is pretty bad, though we have dope ass tilts and practically unbreakable smashes.

But if you say so, man.
 
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Toxicroaker

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Speaking as a main of both Bowser and Ganondorf, I would say the mu is 55:45 or 60:40 in Ganon's favor. I will do a more detailed post tomorow.
 

FakeKraid

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My thoughts:

I don't base MU for Bowser on getting comboed; EVERYONE can combo Bowser to like 60% at least if you let your guard down for a second. In my opinion, there are two character types who are hard or super-hard to beat with Bowser:

1. Characters who have low-commitment neutral games like Pit, Mario, Lucas, technical Zamus, etc, and can therefore play keep-away at no risk of overreaching while easily punishing anything you do

2. Captain Falcon

The latter is solely because a technical Falcon has totally safe approaches against Bowser (L-cancel Knee into Gentleman is a frame trap and the only safe response I've found is to roll away, which just gives him the chance to do it again) and can zero-to-death him consistently from nearly any hit by comboing into one or more Knees. Falcon's not broken, it's just that his character build seems uniquely suited to beat down the Koopa King. Ah well, can't win 'em all.
 
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Toxicroaker

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The Bowser vs. Ganon matchup is fairly tricky for the Bowser player, but it can be done if you know what you are doing.
Bowser's main weakness against Ganondorf is that he has an extremely difficult time getting back on stage once he is off. If you try to recover low enough to grab the ledge the opponent will have an easy time smashing you with down-air. If you get in this position, you are pretty much dead, unless you still have your jump left, in witch case you can meteor cancel it and survive. However, if the opponent u-air spikes you then you are pretty much dead. Recovering high is a little safer, but he can still u-air you back offstage.
In conclusion with recovering: you will die.

Was going to do a waaaaay longer guide, but this is all I have time for now.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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can anyone share info with the diddy match up?
This may help a little. Do not get grabbed by diddy's command throw or up throw at low percents. This leads to an easy chain throw with extension combo that will do a minimum of 41% and with proper banana placement lead to obnoxious amounts of damage.
Small stages are great for bowser, but be careful of where you are in relation to platforms, cause diddy combos bowser very hard.
Bowser outranges diddy in near every way, so expect a lot of popgun and bananas to be in play. A good item game is a plus to have, just use the bananas to limit diddy's options and don't throw them directly at him. 9.5/10 the diddy player is better with items.
Be ready to bait out diddy's side b since that is his only reliable option for destroying Bowser's armor (and a good one). And d.I away from diddy when at higher percents to avoid down throw to fair combo.
Bowser edge guards diddy very well, but diddy's up b also does the same vs bowser. I would say diddy favor, but would like to see different approaches to the matchup.
 
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Abeebo

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Has Yoshi been discussed yet? I've played, like, two Yoshi's so far, but they were both competent and challenging. I'm starting to think the MU is in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi is still very heavy but faster and slipperier than Bowser, so he can last nearly as long as we can while out pacing us 'round stage. Yoshi's projectile and it's many trajectories is very effective at keeping Bowser at bay, and he's also got a disjointed command grab that looks like a regular grab that renders you momentarily helpless. Crouch canceling with Bowser does not seem to be a lasting strategy; even though Yoshi's tilts can get stuffed by CC at early percents, his DJC mechanic lets him plow right through CC even earlier and set up for heavy aerial combos and egg tosses. Yoshi's midair jump armor is some crazy spit! It can totally eat up Fair and many ground attacks, so not only is it hard to get him offstage, but keeping him off is fairly tricky too. That's, like, half of Bowser's game! My best bet for edgeguarding was all sorts of jumps/ledge jumps to Bairs as it's partly disjointed and can break the armor (I think).
 
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ImpossiblyRood

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I have yet to play a link yet, but the concept of the matchup makes me worry. Link's zoning game is hat-munchingly frustrating, and - unlike zelda - has enough weight and recovery options to take a bit of a beating before he goes down. What do you all think?

-edit-
Jumped to page 7. Now a look like a dork. I'll resign to lurking once more.
 
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FakeKraid

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Bowser is really good against Yoshi. He's of the few characters with airs strong enough to break Yoshi's reductive jump armor and reliably gimp his recovery. You just have to focus on not getting overwhelmed on-stage and get him over the edge as quickly as possible.
 

FakeKraid

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I have some stuff on what I consider one of Bowser's worst matchups, Zero Suit Samus.

First, why it's bad:

1: ZSS has one of the best neutral games in PM right now if the player is technical enough. She has a safe, dangerous projectile, high mobility on the ground, tons of long-reach zoning moves that lead into devastating combos, and a down-B that gives her so much safe air mobility and options it's almost unreal. If a good ZSS player decides to run away there is almost nothing you can do even on a small stage.

2. ZSS has dozens of options for comboing Bowser to oblivion. She can easily get 0-60 or more from simple dthrow into usmash and follow-up air combos, and if she manages to land a dair you can expect to get hit with at least six more even with good DI, followed by an uair or fair, depending on circumstances and how the ZSS feels like killing you.

3: Bowser has no safe recovery options against ZSS; a simple dsmash from the stage is next to impossible to avoid, requiring frame-perfect timing and a flawless sweet-spot. I've managed it maybe twice and my recovery skills with Bowser are supremely honed. If you get hit with the dsmash your only option is a stage-tech after the stun wears off, which is only possible if you are close enough to it, as is not always or even often the case; failing that, expect a fsmash or ftilt gimp, every time.

4: A skilled ZSS is probably the hardest tether character for Bowser to gimp. With her down-B options allowing for either a high or low approach and helping her save her jump, the second-longest tether range (I think), and plenty of low-lag airs to deter casual OtS approaches, it takes some perfect hard reads and timing to keep her from grabbing the edge, and if you go for a ledge-hog instead, your only really useful punish for her tether-hop is a back-throw from the Klaw, which requires both a good read on when she begins rising and perfect timing on the attack since she suffers almost no lag from her hop.

So yeah, all told I think this match is unfavorable. But no match is unwinnable. Here are the things I've learned fighting my expert ZSS friend:

1: Stay off the ground as much as possible while ZSS is within medium range. She has tons of options for zoning and punishing at long range on the ground and enough mobility to punish anything you do from about a Wario Ware length away, our more if you miss a cancel or do something stupid, and her punishes all hurt.

2. Don't approach in the air. I know that makes this match sound hopeless, but bear with me. ZSS has just as good options for punishing air approaches from the ground as she does punishing ground ones.

3: Don't chase ZSS. Just don't. You can't catch her. You can follow at enough distance to avoid sudden attacks or direction chances to keep up pressure, but don't ever try to attack while she is running.

4: Get perfect at Power Shielding her stun gun. It's one of the easier projectiles to PS and the rewards are great, leaving her open to a quick punish more often than not.

5: Don't get greedy with gimps. Ledge-hog and punish with a fair or nair then back off or, if possible, tech chase. Only go for the Klaw reversal if you think you're in your opponents head and he's high enough percent for it to matter.

6: Save your second jump as late as possible when recovering. It is far easier to sweet-spot from a jump than from Bowser's up-B. When it isn't possible to recover with just a jump, recover high, and when that isn't possible try to stall beside the ledge during the up-B to bait an early dsmash. None of that is safe or guaranteed, but it beats certain death if you just go straight for the ledge.

This matchup is one about patience. A good ZSS will try to bait you into getting aggressive, but it's always a trap. Play super-defensive even on small stages, rack up single hit punishes whenever possible, use the safest and most reliable options when punishing over the edge, don't pres your advantage too hard, and play the clock. Nothing makes this match easy, but this strategy will give Bowser his best shot in my experience.
 
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ImpossiblyRood

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ZSS and Ness are the two reasons I am determined to have two characters well honed at any one time. As much as I lover Kaiser Koopa, ZSS makes me cry and Ness just makes me hate everyone. I know Ness is doable, I just hate him. A lot.
 

FakeKraid

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Ness isn't even close to as hard as ZSS, though it's still an unfavorable matchup. If you're tricky and gimp his recovery well you can beat Ness before he has a chance to mess you up too badly; against ZSS it's not so clean-cut.
 

Abeebo

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Bowser is really good against Yoshi. He's of the few characters with airs strong enough to break Yoshi's reductive jump armor and reliably gimp his recovery. You just have to focus on not getting overwhelmed on-stage and get him over the edge as quickly as possible.
What is your strategy against djcs? Bowser's bair surely takes yoshi's armor, but I'm pretty sure Fair doesn't break it. I could be wrong, or it could just be a sour fair and I wasn't paying attention.
 

FakeKraid

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I play against a couple of good Yoshis, and honestly the main thing to keep in mind is that you can zone Yoshi out because he doesn't have any long-reach attacks besides tongue stuff. Just keep him at claw's length until you can get him off-stage and then make him suffer for coming back. A sweet-spot fair (or even a sour one at high enough %) will break his armor, and failing that you can often land multiple hits as he jumps back - more than enough to tilt the match in your favor even with Yoshi's on-stage dominance. And if he's stupid enough to try an attack he's almost certainly dead, especially if you predict it and use nair's armor. I gotta be honest, I don't think Yoshi is "there" yet; I think he needs something because even the good Yoshis I play just can't stand up to me. I pay more attention to bad matchups with Bowser since they require it. Maybe the PMBR will consider adding his Brawl up-B back, even if it's just for the first one - I think that would be enough.
 
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FakeKraid

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Dedede is an uphill battle for sure. I'd say use side b armor to get in on his ftilts, then just try to keep him in the air. Edgeguarding him is a pain in the ***, but just taking the ledge from him goes a long way.
I probably know this matchup better than anyone else in the world who plays PM because my partner both mains DeDeDe and also is literally the Brawl player whose playstyle the PMBR based DeDeDe's current build on. It's rough on-stage, especially if the DeDeDe knows how to use Waddles and Waddle-dashes effectively, but actually Bowser can edgeguard the **** out of DeDeDe. It's super-easy. The moment he has to use his up-B he should be dead - just grab the ledge and then when he up-B's ledge-hop up and hit him with a bair, rinse and repeat until he's dead. He has literally no options that help him against this. I think the match between an advanced Bowser and DeDeDe is pretty even, actually, partly because of that.

EDIT: Sorry for the triple-Post, I just kept seeing things on the page I wanted to respond to. I'll shut up now. =_=
 
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Jacob29

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The ZSS isn't a scrub he has been able to win a tournament here in the UK before. Albeit without our top players like Prof but he can stand his own against him.
 

Abeebo

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I've been playing more Ikes lately. It's an entertaining MU, for sure. One thing I learned recently about his UpB recovery: It can be tricky to stop it if the Ike player is good at sweetspotting the ledge, but you can bully them into doing another UpB onto the stage using OUR UpB, making Ike much more vulnerable. Assuming the Bowser player is in an edgeguarding situation where Ike is about to UpB, Bowser can simply drop from ledge and UpB back to the ledge to disrupt Ike's ascension. Bowser's aerial UpB is slower than Ike's UpB, which will result in Ike jumping right into Bowser. Since Bowser will have the priority over the ledge at that point, Ike will usually scare into using an early UpB, thus making him land on stage. You must time the Ledge invincibility frames well if you want to stay safe. I find the ledgehop>WaveLand down>Fortress Hog chain is the best way to get both the ledge and punishing the stage recovery, though options may vary.
 
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ImpossiblyRood

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I was wondering, more experienced bowsers, how do the wario and mewtwo matches hold up?

From my own wario vs other bowsers, I've had a rather easy time getting in and janking up a storm. It seems like wario's air mobility and low-commitment approaches would make life difficult for bowser.

As for mewtwo, I would guess his offstage game and massive hitboxes would be incredibly problematic. I could be completely wrong, of course.
 

Frost | Odds

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Mewtwo hoses you good, but if he doesn't know the MU, you can beat him. Shadowballs are p easy to powershield once you get used to it, and you can crawl through a lot of his jank. Bait out teleports, and usmash him out of them for kills. If he likes grabbing, come down with a lot of flame cancels. Mostly you need to use armor and dtilt and trade with him as much as you can, and try to get early kills via usmash/utilt/uair, or chuck him off the side with a surprise klaw.

Try to get him above you, if you can. Not that mewtwo cares a bit about positioning.
 
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FakeKraid

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Wario can be tricky if he gets a tech chase started on you, but he has less than no reach so you can zone him out bad if you play defensive, and his recovery is worse than Bowser's.

Also, I second _Odds' analysis of the Mewtwo matchup. It's bad because Mewtwo's broken in this build, but you can often take advantage of the fact that people don't know how to fight Bowser, and getting people above you is always a good strategy.
 
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Jacob29

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If you aren't playing against a really good Mewtwo you can easily abuse F-Smash on his Teleport.

You either miss because he TP'd a different direction so he can't punish your end lag.

or he TPs right into it and it's an easy F-Smash.

But against good players.. ngeh. It ain't pretty with that tail range..
 

Mr. Bones

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For fighting Wario, it's hard because his combo game is almost as stupid as Falcon's on Bowser. But he's not nearly as fast and has little reach like Kraid said.

One thing to keep in mind is that you can severely reduce his options for approaching you if you just chill under a platform. Just don't get hit. lol
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Also, I don't know if this has ever been discussed, but Bowser's Dash Attack just destroys Falco. It plows through shines and lasers; you can also juggle him with other Dash Attacks after you land the first one. Falco is Bowser's best Spacie MU in my opinion and my favorite to play against. :D Dash Attack/Dash Grab mix up is an underrated tool that can help in a few MUs but REALLY shines(lol) through in the Falco MU.
 
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