Bowser MU discussion

[Frost | Odds]

Anyone have any advice in the Snake MU?

You're not gonna like it.

Pick another character.

Never, ever roll, and make sure all your up-Bs end up in fortresshogs - if you get grabbed, you're hosed. Don't fight him offstage. Hell, don't pick fights onstage - just try to take and hold center stage using dtilts, flame cancels, and fadeaway fairs. Klaw is your friend because snakes love to shieldgrab. If you're coming down in front of snake and might get shieldgrabbed, then either land and tomahawk up-B, or (usually better) Klaw or flame cancel. The former beats rolls; the latter 2 beat everything else.

Snake has a really hard time sweetspotting the edge. Abuse it by using down-b through his dumb helicopter thing. You need to take that risk because this MU is brutal for you. Your only kill opportunities will probably come from that, an occasional Klaw, and maybe an uair if you're (god forbid) on Pokestad or something.

Try to get a small map, per usual. Avoid Pstads, FD, Dreamland like the plague -- esp. because mines are impossible to see on dreamland. They're also really hard to spot on Skyworld, so be careful.

If you're sexy, sometimes you can airdodge through his sticky grenade. If you get stuck, though, best strategy is probably to just play suuuuuuper safe and frustrate him into using it *before* knocking you up in the air.

 

[Jacob29]

I've only really played against snake in doubles but you just have to accept you're going to get stuck...

apart from that I dunno, doesn't seem like it was too bad.. you outrange nearly all of his attacks

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

vs Snake is easy as long as you don't get grabbed. You do outrange him in every aspect and he has a very tough time recovering against you. You can PS his important stuff and I don't feel he has a good approach method. I don't agree with the whole "Don't pick fights offstage" thing, you can very easily stay out of range of his Fair (his deadliest tool there), and just pelt him with a Fair to knock him away.

 

[jtm94]

Hello Bowser Thread!

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous

 

[Jacob29]

As I said in the TL thread, someone has already done this go back like 2 pages.

 

[jtm94]

Thank you, hard to juggle between every character thread, have added Bowser's MUs to the pic.

 

[Jacob29]

Gotta resist dropping Bowser :+(

But in all serious I'm getting pretty sick of losing games and feeling like it was only due to my character.

After losing to a zss and Ivy it just felt like i was cheated out of my position... So bad matchups I recon

 

[deadjames]

Gotta resist dropping Bowser :+(

But in all serious I'm getting pretty sick of losing games and feeling like it was only due to my character.

After losing to a zss and Ivy it just felt like i was cheated out of my position... So bad matchups I recon

I feel you ZSS feels pretty impossible, I honestly don't think Ivy is that bad for Bowser though.

 

[Jacob29]

Really? She just outranges nearly all of our moves.. Can spam projectiles both seeds and leafs and combos crazy off grabs to either up airs for beams (which are piss easy to hit Bowser with) or upb which kills us at like 80%

 

[_Accelerator]

Bowser vs Ivy/Olimar = **** for the Bowser main. Down-Throw+Vine Whip setups, outranging and grabbing Bowser with incredible ease is no fun. Especially against Olimar since his character relies heavily off of getting a grab and stringing combos together after said grab. 0/10 would not recommend for Bowser mains

 

[deadjames]

Neither of Ivy's projectiles are very spammable, if you're dying at 80% to vine whip either your DI is terrible or you must be really close to the blast zones, Bowser kills Ivy really early and she's slow enough that Bowser doesn't really have too much trouble getting in not to mention dtilt and utilt shut down a lot of her options, and if you don't want to get combo'd just don't get grabbed, I know that advice seems obvious, but if you're constantly thinking about not getting grabbed you'll find ways to keep it from happening. Not saying the MU is in Bowser's favor, but I just personally have never had too much trouble with it, I'd much rather fight Ivy than ZSS.

 

[Jacob29]

How do you not get grabbed?

The chain of events is usually

Razor Leaf -> Try to block it/clank it -> Get Grabbed due to endlag or shielding

or

Razor Leaf -> Jump over it -> Get punished by long range Fairs or Bairs

Don't really see how we can do anything about that as we can't approach Ivysaur for **** and she actually can force us to do so with Solar Beam and Seeds.

 

[deadjames]

You have armor, you can just crawl through the leaves if she's trying to camp, or punish her with a dash attack, nair, or Koop Klaw if she's trying to use them to approach. To not get grabbed just keep moving constantly.

 

[Jacob29]

Crawling gets you grabbed...

Perhaps I don't crawl correctly or something but sure crawl the leaf.

Take the damage from it, and then get stuck. If he tried to grab you on the leaf your done. You can't attack with the leaf on you while crawling as d tilt armour isn't the same.

 

[deadjames]

You clearly didn't read my post closely enough.

 

[Jacob29]

You said you can crawl through the leaves.. Which you can't without getting punished.

How do you dash attack punish them?

She leaves, runs at you and usually fairs which goes over your dash attack.

Nair might work mm but I doubt it as it has 0 range and you will get fair'd

 

[deadjames]

I said you can crawl through them when she's trying to camp, if she's using the leaves to cover her approach you can punish with an armored attack.

 

[_Accelerator]

Saying "Just don't get grabbed" is bad advice, especially when you're playing a very large and slow character (when not running). Also you shouldn't have to rely on armor to win the matchup, that's just terrible. Jacob29, I would definitely work on your power shielding; it gives Bowser an opportunity to rush in and combo. Also, make use of the invincibility you get when you spawn because 2 seconds will definitely get you into Ivysaur's face. And be wary of grabs when you're around 20%-30% because she can D-Throw->Up-B->Solarbeam which kills Bowser at 80%. Bowser will have to play Ivysaur's game and wait until she ****s up or create an opening. This matchup takes a lot of time and patience, but it's doable.

You shouldn't be relying on an armored attack in this matchup, especially for punishing purposes. Trying to armor through her Razor Leaf gets you grabbed. If the Ivysaur player knows the matchup, they can grab Bowser like a ragdoll and camp him. Just try out what I said above and you should do a bit better in the matchup.

 

[deadjames]

You do realize armor is the only thing that makes Bowser even remotely viable right? Abusing his armor is the key to winning the majority of his MUs.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You do realize armor is the only thing that makes Bowser even remotely viable right? Abusing his armor is the key to winning the majority of his MUs.

It also doesn't stop you from getting grabbed.

 

[deadjames]

No, but staying mobile, and being able to read your opponent does.

 

[Jacob29]

Meh I've pretty much dropped Bowser for those MUs and taken up Marth.

I know my friend Ivy doesn't like the MU vs Marth as he gets some pretty silly F-Throw chaingrabs on her.

Same with ZSS. Just feel like my time is being wasted trying to learn the MU as Bowser where a lot more effort has to go into the MU for me to win it compared to time spent getting a secondary.

 

[_Accelerator]

You do realize armor is the only thing that makes Bowser even remotely viable right? Abusing his armor is the key to winning the majority of his MUs.

It doesn't work in this case. He either gets grabbed or hit. You do know that some of the Razor Leafs actually hit 3 or more times, right?

 

[Jacob29]

You do realize armor is the only thing that makes Bowser even remotely viable right? Abusing his armor is the key to winning the majority of his MUs.

I was going to go through all of our armour attacks and how they don't do really anything vs Ivy but I don't think I have to.

How exactly do you abuse your armour vs Ivy? all of our armour attacks are rather short range and don't help approaching really, they just help stop combos or punish people.

 

[deadjames]

You're both completely missing my point and I'm tired of typing the same things over again. If you keep getting grabbed that's your own fault for not being able to see it coming. If Ivy is using razor leaf to approach she's either going to grab in which case you run away to a platform or the ledge or something, or throw out a hitbox in which case you punish it with like a nair or a dash attack or something, it's not that difficult. Or you can just powershield it which will shut down any option she chooses.

 

[Jacob29]

How do you run away if they throw a leaf at you...?

And if you do run away then the Ivy won't try and grab you so then you're back to square one..

Also there is no way you can punish leaf with nair as they will just punish it with fair.

 

[Mr. Bones]

So let's talk about Marth and his ridiculous Dash Dance game. Should I just be super patient and Flame Cancel for days until he messes up?

 

[Tamadrummer1337]

Any tips for playing against sanic? May have to play him in tourney this weekend..I feel like my moves are always out beat, and its hard when hes jumping around all over the place. Not really sure how to counter his speed.

 

[deadjames]

Bowser's moves generally have more priority than Sonic's, just bait and punish stuff from him.

 

[Tamadrummer1337]

Bowser's moves generally have more priority than Sonic's, just bait and punish stuff from him.

Thanks for the reply, I guess maybe my reaction time was a little late, it was also over wifi so maybe that had a little to do with it.. Besides Up B OOS, I'm guessing just sticking to the standard nairs and ftilts? Possibly some D tilts?

 

[deadjames]

Utilt is great too, especially because Sonic likes to fake you out with spin dash and then dair instead.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

How do you guys handle the Punish King of Evil, Ganondorf? He probably gets punished really hard against Ganon but I still have to try out the MU.

 

[Abeebo]

I find myself being more aggressive against Sonic simply due to Bowser being able to break a lot of his options. He's better at baiting and punishing than we are though, so mind your spacing and keep that jab/fair/upB handy to keep him out.

Ganondorf is fun! Both characters rock each other pretty hard. On stage I probably fear him more than he fears me as his attacks have a better chance of killing me. Offstage, it's Bowser's game all day. Koopa Klaw and grabs work wonders here to get him offstage asasp. For the love of god though, DONT LET HIM BACK ON.

 

[Jacob29]

and don't let him grab you.

that d-throw chaingrab too good!

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Is it really easy for you guys to avoid Ganon's edgeguards, or the opposite? I would assume it would be the latter, but I don't face any really good Bowsers.

 

[deadjames]

Personally, I think it's pretty easy.

 

[0RLY]

All Ganon has to do is go in for those super deep dairs. Not much Bowser can do about that.

 

[deadjames]

Except for read them and up-b past them.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I wouldn't go for the d-air unless I had already forced the Bowser to go for his up-b, typically Ganon's b-air is good for covering all recovery options. And if Bowser is coming on stage from high above, Ganon's u-air can easily reach that. How do you handle that, or do most G-dorf's you face go for the spike.

 

[deadjames]

The Ganon I play against almost always goes for the dair against Bowser.