Bowser MU discussion

[DarkStarStorm]

Well, in the JPN version, Ivysaur has a very feminine voice. Thus, is likely a girl.

It could still be argued that that doesn't matter and that Ivy is a guy in US versions though. It's personal opinion. I think of Ivy as a female, although I do occasionally mess up and call Ivy a guy.

Lucas and Marth are both voiced by girls I believe, and yet we still call them guys, amazing!

 

[Jacob29]

In response to you asking about who Bowser does good against.. not many.

But he does have a lot of equal MU's.

Luigi I dont play often, but I imagine is fairly equal. Yoshi is aight but again, no real top yoshi players against me. DK I recon is equal, Diddy.

He does well vs Squirtle imo and M2.

But really he doesn't have many good matchups...

 

[Jacob29]

Oops. Dodgy Ethernet led me to double post.

 

[Frost | Odds]

From all the MUs you guys have helped me with, it looks horrible for him, does he have any good MUs? In Melee, his MU with Jiggs is -2, which is strange because he is in a tier of consistent -3 match-ups with Jigglypuff.

His MUs overall actually aren't too bad; you've just happened to pick a bunch of terrible ones - Bowser does awful against zoning/walling characters. He does pretty well against aggressive or pure spacing characters w/o projectiles.

The following are all merely my opinions, in no particular order

Vs Jiggly favors bowser: probably +2 or +3

Vs Marth seems even-ish. I'd buy anything from -1 to +1 -- I find marth really easy because i'm used to fighting him in melee.

MK: +1 bowser i think

Fox/Wolf: +1 bowser maybe

Falco: 0

M2: -2

Olimar: -3

Lucario: -1

Lucas: 0 or -1?

Mario: 0 or -1

Luigi: +1

GnW: -1 or -2

Peach: 0ish

Roy: +1

Wario: +2

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Oops. Dodgy Ethernet led me to double post.

The Jigglypuff forum says Bowser has a slight advantage. Me: didn't call that!

 

[Frost | Odds]

The Jigglypuff forum says Bowser has a slight advantage. Me: didn't call that!

More than slight. She gets completely hosed by upb and can be outspaced by fair; and killed at really low % with uair.

 

[Jacob29]

Will have to try that next time I play vs Jiggs.

Last time I played vs her (which was a while back) I really struggled not to get OHKO'd by Pound -> Rest, X -> Rest. Everything seemed to combo to rest vs Bowser.

The Wario matchup I think isn't Bowser favoured though... seemed like Side-B and Dash Grab mixups work a treat against him. But maybe you managed to work around that? would like to hear how.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't have much experience against Wario: I'm just guessing that he gets stuffed similarly to Jigglypuff, and could be completely wrong.

 

[deadjames]

Wario destroys Bowser imo. Also, I disagree with a lot of your other opinions Marth MK, Fox, Luigi, and Roy are definitely not in Bowser's favor, and Falco, Mario, and Lucas aren't even they all beat Bowser. Peach isn't even either Bowser beats her. I also think Mewtwo is pretty even. I agree with Lucario and can't comment about Olimar.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Wario destroys Bowser imo. Also, I disagree with a lot of your other opinions Marth MK, Fox, Luigi, and Roy are definitely not in Bowser's favor, and Falco, Mario, and Lucas aren't even they all beat Bowser. Peach isn't even either Bowser beats her. I also think Mewtwo is pretty even. I agree with Lucario and can't comment about Olimar.

Could you show the characters with what you think their MUs are? Bowser's neutral b defeats Wario's side b. Also d tilt or forward tilt.

 

[deadjames]

Wario: -2
Marth: -2
MK: -2
Fox: -1
Wolf: +1
Falco: -2
M2: 0
Lucario:+1
Lucas: -2
Mario:-1
Luigi: -1
G&W: -2
Peach: +1
Roy: -1

I left out Olimar because I have no experience in that MU.

 

[Frost | Odds]

M2: 0
Lucario:+1

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you've never played a competent one of either of these. A decent M2 is all but impossible for Bowser; and Lucario's options are almost as safe as Fox's -- plus, Aura Sphere is basically a guaranteed kill on Bowser in many, many situations.

I think MK favors Bowser because we have a very strong MK in Alberta (who's a better player than me in most respects) who just can't touch my Bowser. As far as Boozer's concerned, he's like a crappy Fox without the shine; who can never really kill you.

Lucas could be pretty rough, yeah.

Marth: -2
Roy: -1

Learn to CC/dtilt, and space fairs. Seriously, it's not hard to beat these guys at their own game.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Dedede
Kirby
Ness
Olimar
Pichu
Pikachu
Pit
Samus
Sheik
Snake
Sonic
Squirtle
Toon Link
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
These are left.

 

[deadjames]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you've never played a competent one of either of these. A decent M2 is all but impossible for Bowser; and Lucario's options are almost as safe as Fox's -- plus, Aura Sphere is basically a guaranteed kill on Bowser in many, many situations.

I think MK favors Bowser because we have a very strong MK in Alberta (who's a better player than me in most respects) who just can't touch my Bowser. As far as Boozer's concerned, he's like a crappy Fox without the shine; who can never really kill you.

Lucas could be pretty rough, yeah.


Learn to CC/dtilt, and space fairs. Seriously, it's not hard to beat these guys at their own game.

I've played a pretty good Mewtwo in tournament and he beat me 2-1, and I train with a Lucario main, Lucario doesn't have a single option as safe as Fox's in fact Lucario barely even has an approach, his approach options are worse than Luigi's. Aura Sphere is extremely easy to avoid. MK does not favor Bowser at all, Bowser can't approach his wall of sword, gets tech chased for days and edge-guarding him is brain-dead for MK. Against Marth and Roy CCing dtilts and spacing fairs doesn't help you when their spaced fairs have more range and their ridiculous grab range can shut down most of your options, for that matter Marth can pretty much 0-death Bowser off a grab.

Dedede
Kirby
Ness -1
Olimar
Pichu isn't in this game
Pikachu -2
Pit -1
Samus -1
Sheik -2
Snake
Sonic
Squirtle -2
Toon Link
Yoshi +1
Zelda -1
ZSS -2
These are left.

Added my opinions.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Dedede
Kirby
Ness
Olimar
Pichu
Pikachu
Pit
Samus
Sheik
Snake
Sonic
Squirtle
Toon Link
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
These are left.

I hope there's room for refinement later, but i'll take a stab

Dedede -1 (the walls)
Kirby +1 (i main kirby, not sure about this MU though. Prob. depends on how well you can dodge hammers.)
Ness ? probably -1
Olimar -3; bowser's worst mu imo, basically unwinnable
Pichu -- you w0t m8
Pikachu - 0?
Pit - really map dependent. 0 or -1, probs
Samus -1
Sheik -2
Snake -2
Sonic -1
Squirtle -1
Toon Link -1
Yoshi 0
Zelda -1
ZSS -1

Maybe I'm pessimistic? :X

 

[Frost | Odds]

Aura Sphere is extremely easy to avoid.

On ledge? ha

MK does not favor Bowser at all, Bowser can't approach his wall of sword

Use dtilt

gets tech chased for days

So does MK

and edge-guarding him is brain-dead for MK

No more than everyone else.

. Against Marth and Roy CCing dtilts and spacing fairs doesn't help you when their spaced fairs have more range

They don't. -_-

and their ridiculous grab range can shut down most of your options

That, I'll grant. Their grabs are dumb.

edit: woops accidentally double posted instead of editing. sorry =[

 

[deadjames]

On ledge? ha


Use dtilt


So does MK


No more than everyone else.


They don't. -_-


That, I'll grant. Their grabs are dumb.

edit: woops accidentally double posted instead of editing. sorry =[

Even on ledge it's not hard to avoid Aura Sphere, by wall of sword I meant fair, and nair, neither of which dtilt will help against. Bowser has to work much harder to start a tech chase than MK does and doesn't get as much reward off of it, and literally all MK has to do to edge-guard is charge an fsmash, you'll be lucky if you're able to sweetspot before he lets it fly, I'm pretty sure both Marth's and Roy's fair out range Bowser's and even if they don't they're faster and disjointed. Also I shouldn't have to clarify this, but just because you're good at a MU doesn't make it in your character's favor. Every time Marth comes up your argument starts with something along the lines of "I'm comfortable with it in Melee, and Bowser's better now, so it's even."

 

[Jacob29]

Id say ZSS is a -2 unless your a wayyyy better player.

 

[deadjames]

Yeah ZSS is pretty bad, she's basically Sheik with more range.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Even on ledge it's not hard to avoid Aura Sphere, by wall of sword I meant fair, and nair, neither of which dtilt will help against.

Use ftilt/fair

Bowser has to work much harder to start a tech chase than MK does and doesn't get as much reward off of it

Yeah, but you can also upB oos almost anything he does; he can't really space you.

and literally all MK has to do to edge-guard is charge an fsmash, you'll be lucky if you're able to sweetspot before he lets it fly

Interesting. I could be wrong, then.

Also I shouldn't have to clarify this, but just because you're good at a MU doesn't make it in your character's favor. Every time Marth comes up your argument starts with something along the lines of "I'm comfortable with it in Melee, and Bowser's better now, so it's even."

It's more like I have a basic understanding of the matchup, which most Bowsers don't simply out of fear of the perceived imbalance, and the newness of the meta. It's pretty tough to really call the balance of any matchup that you're not experienced in; so it was hypocritical of me to claim that MK was easy. Sorry.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Finally boss battle music! ROB.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Tough to say. He can projectile camp you really hard, but you don't really care about his recovery. I'm inclined to say -1, but you should probably go with deadjames on this one, if/when he gets around to it.

 

[deadjames]

I'd say -1 as well, Bowser has a hard time getting in and ROB can force a lot of unfavorable situations with his gyro, get some stupid combos off a grab, and gimp him ridiculously easy, but ROB is still manageable if you avoid big stages like FD, or Dreamland.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'd say -1 as well, Bowser has a hard time getting in and ROB can force a lot of unfavorable situations with his gyro, get some stupid combos off a grab, and gimp him ridiculously easy, but ROB is still manageable if you avoid big stages like FD, or Dreamland.

Thanks, I'll send you a screenshot of the result.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

It glitched so that's the reason for the double post.

 

[BertEast]

It glitched so that's the reason for the double post. View attachment 9030

Seeing this makes me even more hype for when it is complete. Great work!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Seeing this makes me even more hype for when it is complete. Great work!

Thanks buddy! Some of the MUs are different from what you guys suggested, and they are subject to change, I used a little of my own judgement with some of them. One thing I noticed is that match-ups don't quite matter to Bowser, he can steam-roll through some of his hard ones.

 

[Frost | Odds]

One thing I noticed is that match-ups don't quite matter to Bowser, he can steam-roll through some of his hard ones.

Uh, if the other guy really really sucks, then yeah

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wai u no **** marth
I want 7:3 MU plz
Btw
Lucario has like, no approach options.

 

[Jacob29]

Because Marth edgeguards Bowser really easily?

 

[deadjames]

Lucario has like, no approach options.

Neither does Bowser and Lucario is more mobile.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I wanted to believe boozer was the answer. Can no one in the mushroom kingdom stop this man?!

 

[Jacob29]

is Down-B with aura not an approach option? granted it isn't available all the time, but when it is it seems like a solid approach.

and seeing how combo-friendly bowser is you will probably earn another aura from it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Hmm ya, guess I forgot about that. Usually, I see that as a mix up, I'm sure it could be countered with a grounded up b or something though. Aside from that, his options in that regard are pretty limited/not really good.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Uh, if the other guy really really sucks, then yeah

Well, sorry, let me clarify: GimpyFish can steam-roll through some of his hard match-ups. Like Ultra Super Saiyan, except his brute strength is coupled with speed.

 

[deadjames]

I wanted to believe boozer was the answer. Can no one in the mushroom kingdom stop this man?!

Bowser probably has the worst MU against Marth out of all the Mario characters, Marth beats all of them, but Peach probably has the most favorable MU against him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Well, sorry, let me clarify: GimpyFish can steam-roll through some of his hard match-ups. Like Ultra Super Saiyan, except his brute strength is coupled with speed.

If you mean Bladewise's Diddy, Bladewise sucks at Diddy (though his peach is sick).

In general, Gimpy just seems to be a better player than most of the people he plays with. I'm still of the opinion that his PM bowser is pretty sloppy (mostly compared to his gahlike Melee bowser), but from what I've seen on his stream, his play partners just aren't on the level where they can really abuse their characters' advantages.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

At the same time, Gimpy has beaten Silent Wolf.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, but imo Bowser is favored against spacies, especially ages ago, in the patch relevant to the match you reference.

Dunno. Could be wrong, I guess. Gimpy's my idol, but I just don't think his play is anywhere near optimal. "Bad" is the word I'm inclined to use, but people tend to take that to mean that I believe I'm better - which is absolutely not the case.

Bah, there's no way to not sound like I'm dissing the WA scene here. It's more like the metagame in general, I think: most people just haven't the combination of skill and experience to capitalize on Bowser's weakpoints to the extent that it should be possible.

 

[BertEast]

Roy isn't very good against bowser. He gets comboed hard and is easy to get offstage. Roy excels when bowser is offstage, but that is about it. I'd say it is 60:40 in browzers flavor. But then again roys neutral b...