Bowser MU discussion

[Abeebo]

Page 6 just finished a good discussion on Zelda matchups.

 

[BJN39]

if she's close enough to the stage that she can teleport out of your viable range, then she is close enough to get hit before she teleports. Remember ledgejump wavelands, too.

Really, edgeguarding Zelda is very similar to edgeguarding Sheik. As long as you take the ledge while either is recovering their options are quite limited, and if you time your get up right they are almost always punishable (Or best case scenario they just SD thinking you'd leave the ledge earlier and they attempted to sweetspot, things like that).

Like edgeguarding sheik, but far harder...

Zelda has far more options for recovery and an even safer, longer version of sheiks up B.

 

[deadjames]

Anyone know how Bowser does against Ike? I feel like it would probably be in Ike's favor, but I don't have any experience in the MU.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

fairly decent.

It's a much easier MU than vs Marth atleast.

 

[deadjames]

fairly decent.

It's a much easier MU than vs Marth atleast.

Any specific advice on how to play the MU?

 

[cmart]

Watch out for quickdraw -> grab. Look for when he jumps - you can almost always punish Ike for jumping since your aerials are faster than his with about equal range. Your Bowser, don't be afraid to trade. Beyond that I just run the stuff I normally run -> try to get him to use up his jump by feinting juggles, lots of dropzone fairs, flame-cancel/klaw mixups.

 

[deadjames]

Watch out for quickdraw -> grab. Look for when he jumps - you can almost always punish Ike for jumping since your aerials are faster than his with about equal range. Your Bowser, don't be afraid to trade. Beyond that I just run the stuff I normally run -> try to get him to use up his jump by feinting juggles, lots of dropzone fairs, flame-cancel/klaw mixups.

It seems like trading with Ike could potentially be bad though since he can kill most characters at upwards of 40%.

 

[GeZ]

It seems like trading with Ike could potentially be bad though since he can kill most characters at upwards of 40%.

Nah, trading is literally almost always in Bowsers favor. The Ike matchup is no exception, as Ike players will look bewildered and hurt as you slap away their pitiful sword.

 

[Jacob29]

has Marth been discussed?

He seems very good at stopping Bowser's recovery.

 

[deadjames]

has Marth been discussed?

He seems very good at stopping Bowser's recovery.

He's just very good a stopping Bowser in general imo. In regards to recovering though, if you're able to save your double jump and do a rising Bowser Bomb to the ledge, there isn't much Marth can do about that.

 

[Jacob29]

He's just very good a stopping Bowser in general imo. In regards to recovering though, if you're able to save your double jump and do a rising Bowser Bomb to the ledge, there isn't much Marth can do about that.

Yeah I had no idea you could do that until today and I was reading through Bowser threads and came across gimpyfish's video.

Thought instantly "ah that will help vs Marth" as I pretty much can't recover at all with UpB vs Marth.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Gonzales and I thought that Ike vs Bowser was even back in the 2.1 demo days.

since he stopped playing I don't know about the present matchup. probably still stage dependant. they edgeguard the crap out of eachother. Bowser benefits more from trading hits, and has ironclad ways to stop quickdraw nonsense.... dtilt was amazing for that I think...

Marth vs Bowser sucks for the turtle

 

[Abeebo]

3.0 Bowser is finally here. Not sure if I want him to stay :-\

I ended up dissecting him a little bit last night. His changes are interesting. Maybe a little unclear? I'll just cover moves with significant changes I've noticed.

Fair has a sour spot now. Luckily its not as bad as it reads. The melee-esque 13% hit still has solid knock back, and the stronger 16% sweet spot feels and looks good. I can work with this.

Flamebreath pushes people now. This could be interesting! It doesn't connect as reliably, but racking damage is still possible. Have yet to try it to edge guard.

Whirling Fortress. The move itself feels fine. I was afraid the hit boxes were gonna suffer, but this did not happen. I do notice the slightly longer horizontal range. Thanks!
But as for the ledge snap....... Tsk tsk tsk.....
I get it, I suppose. Bowser made it incredibly easy to ledge hog. with his power and edge attack, it was a little daunting for the opponent at times. On the other hand, he was so comfortable being so close to the ledge. He's so fast to attack there! Especially once you start a combo. To have to slow down your momentum while racing to the edge feels unnatural. Like he doesn't really wanna but I'm making him. And don't tell me that's finesse, cuz its not.

Bair is probably my biggest showstopper. Its as lasting as his uair and dair, so it doesn't autocancel anymore. Throw one out and wait til you're on the floor again. This is a huge contrast to 2 bairs and still have time for a landing attack/movement. That's a BIG chunk of my air game, and crucial for my mixups.

Overall he's definitely still Boozer. Just with seemingly less benefits. Not that he's nerfed up, but I don't really see how these changes improve his game at all.

 

[deadjames]

Overall he's definitely still Boozer. Just with seemingly less benefits. Not that he's nerfed up, but I don't really see how these changes improve his game at all.

They don't imo, they just create artificial barriers to make him a less accessible character, it almost feels like he got the Sonic treatment, but to a much lesser extent.

 

[Abeebo]

to make him a less accessible character

The sum of my feels.

 

[hotdogturtle]

- Whirling Fortress edgehog behavior changed to no longer auto-snap to ledges. Requires some finesse to fortress hog now

So what are the actual inputs for this now? I found that if you're facing the direction of the edge, you whirl off, and hold towards the ledge as soon as you get into the air. But when you're facing away from the ledge and whirl backwards, I can't figure out how to ledgegrab from there.

 

[Jacob29]

I kinda like the flame and fair change... but the Whirl and Bair change.. I just dont get it.

The Whirl seems like such a silly change.. the ledge was one of Bowsers reedeming factors and was a real help in some unfavourable matchups.. but now its really weird.

I really don't see how simply making it harder accomplishes any goal as opposed to doing it for the sake of it...

Also the Bair lag is ridiculous... you can no longer jump backwards off a ledge.. bair and then recover. It's literally impossible.... It seems so silly and unnecessary..

 

[Abeebo]

Whirling Fortress feels kinda like melee now. Well, I suppose he's generally more like his melee self.


You can see how that's not a good thing. I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now. I should be using him more in 3.0.

 

[Frost | Odds]

But as for the ledge snap....... Tsk tsk tsk.....
I get it, I suppose. Bowser made it incredibly easy to ledge hog. with his power and edge attack, it was a little daunting for the opponent at times. On the other hand, he was so comfortable being so close to the ledge. He's so fast to attack there!

You can still be incredibly aggressive in, on, and around the ledge. As far as I can tell so far, all varieties of Melee fortresshogging still work. The fortress changes have made literally no difference to my play. :<

 

[Abeebo]

Its not nearly as 'seamless' anymore is what i'm getting at. You really can't just continue going forward off the ledge . You'll likely miss and die. Like I said though, giving the benefit of the doubt. PMBR found these changes necessary, so we'll wait and see where it puts Bowser on the scale.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You can, though. See: dashing fortresshog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGgg8YomIDI

You don't need to stop, as shown in the video- that's only for clarity.

It does make the tech slightly tricky, and it's terrifying to do it in a real game until you've practiced the tech skill, but like wavedashing it can be done extremely consistently and with little effort once you've got it down.

 

[cmart]

You can fortress at any distance from the ledge, and fortress hog. It was tested extensively. The inputs are slightly different for different positions, but it's not impossible. Same with offstage bair - you have to be a lot more mindful of your positioning and where you'll have to start your DJ or up B from, but you can do it just fine. Spend some time in the lab - practice, and you'll get it.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I think 3.0 Bowser is horrendous in several aspects.

I will clarify later on.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You can fortress at any distance from the ledge, and fortress hog. It was tested extensively. The inputs are slightly different for different positions, but it's not impossible. Same with offstage bair - you have to be a lot more mindful of your positioning and where you'll have to start your DJ or up B from, but you can do it just fine. Spend some time in the lab - practice, and you'll get it.

Yup, figured. I'm curious if the slow fortresshog ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JndHdWYgeo ) still works while facing the ledge?

 

[hotdogturtle]

So what I'm getting is, you have to slow your horizontal speed before slipping off the ledge, and going too fast is what causes you to miss the grab? I get that you have to hold towards the ledge no matter what. I'm just feeling a bit lost because I never touched Bowser in Melee so I don't know any of the old tricks, and the way I learned this in P:M was "easy" prior to 3.0.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm not totally sure that the slowhog works in P:M yet; but regardless if you time your upB such that you're right on the edge as it's starting, you'll grab it regardless of which way you're holding stick, or how much momentum you have or what direction you're facing. For the 'slow' fortresshog, you can slow your momentum and kinda creep towards the edge to do it a bit more safely. It's all in those 2 videos, really.

 

[deadjames]

Someone should really start a thread about 3.0 Bowser instead of posting all of this in MU Discussion.

 

[Ace55]

You can fortress at any distance from the ledge, and fortress hog. It was tested extensively. The inputs are slightly different for different positions, but it's not impossible. Same with offstage bair - you have to be a lot more mindful of your positioning and where you'll have to start your DJ or up B from, but you can do it just fine. Spend some time in the lab - practice, and you'll get it.

But why? Why do I have to go into the lab and practice something that hasn't changed in functionality, just made harder?

 

[Abeebo]

Imma move this discussion to a different thread.

Edit: already made. Continue the Match Ups here.

 

[Frost | Odds]

So, has anyone played post patch Bowser vs Ivy? That matchup was about as impossible as Melee Bowser vs Sheik against a competent Ivy; I'm curious if it's changed.

 

[Abeebo]

No, but i've tried Giga Bowser vs Ivy MU and it's pretty favorable on our part. I think so.

 

[Abeebo]

Srsly though, How does Bowser do against Ivy's razor leafs now?

 

[deadjames]

So, has anyone played post patch Bowser vs Ivy? That matchup was about as impossible as Melee Bowser vs Sheik against a competent Ivy; I'm curious if it's changed.

I honestly never thought it was that bad in 2.6, imo Bowser's worst MUs were Squirtle, Marth, and Sheik.

 

[Ace55]

That matchup was about as impossible as Melee Bowser vs Sheik against a competent Ivy; I'm curious if it's changed.

This could very well be the grossest exaggeration I've ever come across in smash.

 

[Frost | Odds]

This could very well be the grossest exaggeration I've ever come across in smash.

A competent Ivy. Not remotely an exaggeration, though I understand they were very few and far between.

I honestly never thought it was that bad in 2.6, imo Bowser's worst MUs were Squirtle, Marth, and Sheik.

The Marth MU wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't really bad at all. Imo, might have even favored Bowser. No good Sheiks or Squirtles in Calgary, though, so I wouldn't know about the others.

 

[Jacob29]

I'm starting to think that the Ness match up is about 70-30 to Ness.

Down-throw to Bair/Fair+Fair and re-grab is so strong against Bowser.

 

[BJN39]

So I'm doing this project on the Zelda boards for MUs where I ask people who have experience on both character boards to give their ratios for the MU.

In this case, I mean the Bowser:Zelda MU. @ Anyone who has MU experience here as Bowser playing against Zelda, what do you think the MU ratio is?

 

[Frost | Odds]

So I'm doing this project on the Zelda boards for MUs where I ask people who have experience on both character boards to give their ratios for the MU.

In this case, I mean the Bowser:Zelda MU. @ Anyone who has MU experience here as Bowser playing against Zelda, what do you think the MU ratio is?

Terrible. 75:25 Zelda at best. Bowser can never ever approach her, gets comboed to hell, and has no real combos in return.

 

[deadjames]

So I'm doing this project on the Zelda boards for MUs where I ask people who have experience on both character boards to give their ratios for the MU.

In this case, I mean the Bowser:Zelda MU. @ Anyone who has MU experience here as Bowser playing against Zelda, what do you think the MU ratio is?

I'd say it's nowhere near as bad as _Odds claims, it's definitely not in Bowser's favor, I'd say 60-40 at worst, and 55-45 at best. Bowser has a hard time approaching anyone, but Zelda really isn't that hard if you're aware of how to deal with Din's Fire, a lot of her combo setups are easy to avoid if you know the correct DI, and Bowser combos her easier than a lot of other characters do since he can chase her with a jump-cancelled Bowser Bomb.

 

[Senpai♥]

Just got back from APEX, and I've been rocking 3.0 Bowser since 2.5. Figured I'd talk about a handful of the matchups I've been in.

Fox isn't nearly as one-sided as you might think. If they play on point, you don't get many chances to get in on them... but when you do, you can go to town. Fox is VERY vulnerable once you catch him, and he's super easy to gimp. Several Fox mains that I faced would switch out of the match-up, in fear of the ultimate punishment Bowser gives them. Several. It's actually my favorite match-up personally, and I never faced spacies in my local area because there haven't been any mains around here.

Lucas, Roy, Snake, Zelda and Sheik were amongst the most troublesome. Lucas pretty much combos Bowser freely off of a PK Freeze for days, and gets an easy kill on most stages by 120% or so with an up throw. Sheik does Sheik things, Snake and Zelda do their things. Most of them are pretty self-explanatory. Link was also a bit troublesome, but anyone with disjointed hitboxes or powerful projectiles are kind of a given.

I don't know why, but I had a lot more issues dealing with Roy players than Marth players. While Marth doesn't have a lot of trouble spacing out those tippers, Boozer mains know that and play the spacing game as well--quite well, considering how much reach Bowser has. Roy just doesn't care about that and slaps him silly, and has little issue KOing Bowser at lower percentanges due to the trajectory his blows knock the behemoth in.

For the most part, certain characters seem to shut Bowser down hard, but Bowser can honestly shrug off a lot of stuff from the more 'even' match-ups and easily turn things in his favor. Some match-ups seem to be extremely unfavorable, while others seem to lean heavily in Bowser's favor. It's really a case of knowing the match-ups yourselves, because knowing which attacks of yours beat our your opponent's is probably the most important information the Koopa King can have.