cmart
Smash Lord
Rolling as a mix up? What's next spotdodging?
<3
<3
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Bowser MU discussion
- Thread starter Youngster Joey
- Start date
GeZ
Smash Lord
It seems like a terrible idea. It's like missing your SideB and doing it twice more hoping you're opponent is asleep and walks into it. Especially for Bowser where in some match ups getting touched means dying. With all the tools at your disposal, why use the parallel to rusty garden shears for heart surgery?
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
you gotta try it mang~
Not familiar with that match up yet. I can imagine the frustration though. She not only has raw speed, but very good mobility too. Her stunning tools and our size are not a winning combo for us. Since i'm not qualified to give you specific MU pointers, i'll just fill some air with general knowledge i've learned from Bowser.
Some of Bowser's more defensive moves (I think) are
Jab: One of Bowser's fastest moves. Nothing special, but still useful for keep away. 1st jab can connect to a side b or tilts if done properly. If you're comfortable with wavedashing, jab twice and WD towards the opponent for another jab or two or whatever you'd like.
Dtilt: One-two attack for 22% total. Disjointed and strong. Has the benefit of a little armor (though it does not seem to gain the entire effect of crawl armor). Also, you can turn around while crouching by holding the opposite direction after you put out the first dtilt hit. Sometimes good enough to land a Bair. You can always Bowser Bomb (Jump Cancel) to change it up and hopefully soak up a jab or dash attack as the bomb's jump squat has (weak) red armor.
Crawl Armor: Not a move per say, but unique and essential to Bowser. Crouching instantly gives him light(questionable term in this case, if it hasn't been relabeled yet) armor that allows you to take projectiles and some damn strong hits at 0-low percents. The effect minimizes, but does not disappear, to an extent as rising damage continues. This should actually be able to take a good grip of ZSS's moves as she uses weak multi-hit moves frequently, and just generally weaker.
Nair: One of three non-smash attacks with red armor AND the only one that's L-cancelable. AWESOME. I think this is an overlooked move, and I actually like this one more than Fair (personally. Not so much as an option replacement). Red armor with 13% and no sourspot (I think). It can beat a good amount of aerial attacks. The blessing of red armor alone lets you shut down even more general options, and not just aerials. Getup attacks? SQUASHED. Recovering? WALLED. Attacking above you? INTERCEPTED. Use it in junction with Bowser Bomb Jump Cancel to turn yourself into a cannon ball. Drop it hard with some SHFFLS. You'll see what I mean.
Up-B: You know this one. I know this one. Our grannys know this one. Great for offense, defense, killing, retreating, and I wouldnt rule out mincing onions either. It's a move that you can get kind of creative with. Out of Shield is quintessential and lifesaving. Also, use it instead of a dash attack to get past the opponent and onto his/her ledge since Up-B, compared to dash attack, has a longer duration AND multi-hitboxes that can better disrupt, or can just straight-up knock them out. Use it instead of an aerial at low percents to deal maximum damage, because If you can land the strong AND weak hitboxes of the entire move, then that's a quick 35%. Personally, I try to stick with a single direction when i'm grounded in order to minimize whiffing and maximize edgehogging.
Dsmash: Kind of situational, but really awesome. One of Bowser's few multi-hit moves, and it has generous amounts of red armor, though each hit is weak so i'm not sure how good that armor really is. It'll still disrupt, that's for sure. Mostly used as a surprise, or trap. Decent for edgeguarding at low/really high percents as it lands 28% total and can kill above 150%. NOTE: Dsmash actually has a gnarly disjointed hitbox behind Bowser that WILL get unfamiliar people by surprise. Personally, I actually approach with it from time to time. If you're comfortable with wavedashing, you can WD with your back towards the enemy and time that disjointed hitbox. It's great every time.
Flame Breath: First is first-this move does not suck. It is actually quite useful. It's not the greatest iteration in any sense, but damnit if I don't use this every match. Minimal knockback with considerable end lag, but has instant startup if landed with. A good shield pressure option and your best long-range spacer, though that doesn't say much unfortunately. It's all about spacing with this one. Learn to time it. OH! B-Reversals! Learn this too!
IMPORTANT: Fair and Bair end way quicker in 2.6b. To the point of autocancelling reliably. This is fantastic news for Bowser's offense and defense. It allows him to do this: You can accompany each full jump with a Fair or Bair, and still have enough time in the air to land with Nair (for opponents under you), Flame Cancel (for opponents out of immediate reach), or waveland for a safer retreat. There's a bit of room for creativity with this technique so you can change it up depending on your offensive or defensive needs.
I got carried away here, but i'm hoping at least ONE sentence made SOMETHING better. PROST!
Some of Bowser's more defensive moves (I think) are
Jab: One of Bowser's fastest moves. Nothing special, but still useful for keep away. 1st jab can connect to a side b or tilts if done properly. If you're comfortable with wavedashing, jab twice and WD towards the opponent for another jab or two or whatever you'd like.
Dtilt: One-two attack for 22% total. Disjointed and strong. Has the benefit of a little armor (though it does not seem to gain the entire effect of crawl armor). Also, you can turn around while crouching by holding the opposite direction after you put out the first dtilt hit. Sometimes good enough to land a Bair. You can always Bowser Bomb (Jump Cancel) to change it up and hopefully soak up a jab or dash attack as the bomb's jump squat has (weak) red armor.
Crawl Armor: Not a move per say, but unique and essential to Bowser. Crouching instantly gives him light(questionable term in this case, if it hasn't been relabeled yet) armor that allows you to take projectiles and some damn strong hits at 0-low percents. The effect minimizes, but does not disappear, to an extent as rising damage continues. This should actually be able to take a good grip of ZSS's moves as she uses weak multi-hit moves frequently, and just generally weaker.
Nair: One of three non-smash attacks with red armor AND the only one that's L-cancelable. AWESOME. I think this is an overlooked move, and I actually like this one more than Fair (personally. Not so much as an option replacement). Red armor with 13% and no sourspot (I think). It can beat a good amount of aerial attacks. The blessing of red armor alone lets you shut down even more general options, and not just aerials. Getup attacks? SQUASHED. Recovering? WALLED. Attacking above you? INTERCEPTED. Use it in junction with Bowser Bomb Jump Cancel to turn yourself into a cannon ball. Drop it hard with some SHFFLS. You'll see what I mean.
Up-B: You know this one. I know this one. Our grannys know this one. Great for offense, defense, killing, retreating, and I wouldnt rule out mincing onions either. It's a move that you can get kind of creative with. Out of Shield is quintessential and lifesaving. Also, use it instead of a dash attack to get past the opponent and onto his/her ledge since Up-B, compared to dash attack, has a longer duration AND multi-hitboxes that can better disrupt, or can just straight-up knock them out. Use it instead of an aerial at low percents to deal maximum damage, because If you can land the strong AND weak hitboxes of the entire move, then that's a quick 35%. Personally, I try to stick with a single direction when i'm grounded in order to minimize whiffing and maximize edgehogging.
Dsmash: Kind of situational, but really awesome. One of Bowser's few multi-hit moves, and it has generous amounts of red armor, though each hit is weak so i'm not sure how good that armor really is. It'll still disrupt, that's for sure. Mostly used as a surprise, or trap. Decent for edgeguarding at low/really high percents as it lands 28% total and can kill above 150%. NOTE: Dsmash actually has a gnarly disjointed hitbox behind Bowser that WILL get unfamiliar people by surprise. Personally, I actually approach with it from time to time. If you're comfortable with wavedashing, you can WD with your back towards the enemy and time that disjointed hitbox. It's great every time.
Flame Breath: First is first-this move does not suck. It is actually quite useful. It's not the greatest iteration in any sense, but damnit if I don't use this every match. Minimal knockback with considerable end lag, but has instant startup if landed with. A good shield pressure option and your best long-range spacer, though that doesn't say much unfortunately. It's all about spacing with this one. Learn to time it. OH! B-Reversals! Learn this too!
IMPORTANT: Fair and Bair end way quicker in 2.6b. To the point of autocancelling reliably. This is fantastic news for Bowser's offense and defense. It allows him to do this: You can accompany each full jump with a Fair or Bair, and still have enough time in the air to land with Nair (for opponents under you), Flame Cancel (for opponents out of immediate reach), or waveland for a safer retreat. There's a bit of room for creativity with this technique so you can change it up depending on your offensive or defensive needs.
I got carried away here, but i'm hoping at least ONE sentence made SOMETHING better. PROST!
So Boozer vs Ivy seems to be a battle of upB vs Razor Leaf for the most part. Clanking with it just seems to put you in a bad position (unless it's Flame Breath). The only way to edgeguard her seems to be hold ledge -> Fair (tried Claw, I just get Bair'd). Really doesn't feel very enjoyable to me.
Damn, I'm horrible at explaining this. Basically what I'm trying to say is that, despite having yet to drop game in the matchup iirc, I absolutely hate playing it.
Damn, I'm horrible at explaining this. Basically what I'm trying to say is that, despite having yet to drop game in the matchup iirc, I absolutely hate playing it.
You can crawl through pretty much anything Ivy has. However they tend to only really attack you while there is a leaf casually strolling across your massive hurtbox. Which kind of limits your options to respond to their attack to upB (or maybe dtilt or something).
What to do against Ivy? Pray.
He'll have a harder time getting through with Bairs if your tossing Nairs now and then. If you're close enough, you can dash attack to eat up razor leaf and nick Ivy a bit. Or just jump over the leaf.
He'll have a harder time getting through with Bairs if your tossing Nairs now and then. If you're close enough, you can dash attack to eat up razor leaf and nick Ivy a bit. Or just jump over the leaf.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Seems like the razor leaf would be our biggest problem in the matchup. Though she is wonderfully light so we at least have an easier time killing her.
Ok, maybe not jump in all gung-ho, but bowser does have flame cancel and powerful aerials to disrupt/trade hits. She has a strong anti-air game. She's too disjointed to wait and try to regularly find an opening in neutral. Bowser is one damn powerful opponent though. He's big, heavy, and devastating. For me, Bowser has to trade hits with her a lot if he's gonna make it.
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
Seem's like getting the BAir Edgeguard is fairly easy against Ivy. Seems like she either wants to come in low for the tether, perfect for dropping into a BAir.
or she comes in higher and you can just jump off the ledge and BAir. On stage though.. man that razor leaf. I actually don't mind jumping over it though, doesn't seem like i can't trade with her after I jump either with jumping backwards to B or baiting out an attack with double jump.
or she comes in higher and you can just jump off the ledge and BAir. On stage though.. man that razor leaf. I actually don't mind jumping over it though, doesn't seem like i can't trade with her after I jump either with jumping backwards to B or baiting out an attack with double jump.
OH! I'm messing with Bowser as i'm typing this. Check this out:
Bowser can turn himself around in his crawl position if you angle backwards after the first hit of Dtilt. Remember that Dsmash disjoint hitbox behind him? :-D
Dtilt will hit the opponent away. Good. If it doesn't? Then they're probably crouch cancelling or shielding (and hopefully not jabbing), which is a great time for that Dsmash hitbox to give them big damage/shield damage.
Bowser can turn himself around in his crawl position if you angle backwards after the first hit of Dtilt. Remember that Dsmash disjoint hitbox behind him? :-D
Dtilt will hit the opponent away. Good. If it doesn't? Then they're probably crouch cancelling or shielding (and hopefully not jabbing), which is a great time for that Dsmash hitbox to give them big damage/shield damage.
Yes, to make the most out of dsmash disjoint up close. Bowser turns quick enough to surprise the opponent since they're most likely expecting a second dtilt. And when I say turn around, I mean while Bowser is crouching. Since you're not running, his slow crawl will still keep you in the same spot.
JesseMcCloud
AKA Zessei, Herald of Fate
Hm. As a Pit main, I'd say Bowser has a hard time dealing with the Winged Gimp-master.
But I don't have a lot of P:M experience against serious players (living in central Montana sucks.)
But I don't have a lot of P:M experience against serious players (living in central Montana sucks.)
GeZ
Smash Lord
I don't think Bowser is that bad off against Pit, but so I can have a bit more insight, what do you think really turns the matchup in Pit's favor?
GeZ
Smash Lord
With what, his arrows? They're a good tool, but I wouldn't say that the combination of them and the rest of Pits move pool could shut down Bowser's approach completely. I also don't see Pit having a very solid neutral game since he doesn't have very many tools to help get him in, and all of his damage comes from his combo game.
I'm a little surprised we've gone this long without discussing Zelda very thoroughly. Is it just me, or is she the bane of Bowser's existence? Pits and ZSSs(sssszzssszzss) are fairly manageable for me, but Zelda is on another level of powerful defense.
3 long lasting, quickly directed fireballs-turn-to-bomb projectiles are a nightmare to get through and a nasty setup to Bair/Fair, which in themselves is a whole other nightmare. It's so difficult to swat them too, since that simply refreshes the move just for Zelda to throw right in your way. I have to try super hard reads to not get gimped by them while recovering. If i'm close enough and I know Zelda is gonna throw a fire or two more, I can actually get away with a Bowser Bomb right on her stupid head.
And then there's the Bair/Fair attacks that tend to break massive skulls with such ease. After trying her out a bit, I am shocked at how relatively easy it is to land these attacks on Bowser. I mean, each one has 3 separate properties that get stronger the farther out you are. Bowser's size allows this to happen so damn often it's sickening. Nair red armor can pass through all but the strongest hit. Don't even get me started how easy it is for her to set me up for these aerial attacks. This bullspit alone makes me want to give up on Bowser, though I never will.
Faore's(?) Wind is very wide, carries momentum, and strong enough to deter my aerial approaches, plus it stuffs flame cancel. Dtilt/smashes sometimes works, but it seems best to avoid her during this move. At least it leaves her pretty open.
Of course, a lot about Zelda gives me trouble, but these are the worst for me. How do you guys deal with her?
3 long lasting, quickly directed fireballs-turn-to-bomb projectiles are a nightmare to get through and a nasty setup to Bair/Fair, which in themselves is a whole other nightmare. It's so difficult to swat them too, since that simply refreshes the move just for Zelda to throw right in your way. I have to try super hard reads to not get gimped by them while recovering. If i'm close enough and I know Zelda is gonna throw a fire or two more, I can actually get away with a Bowser Bomb right on her stupid head.
And then there's the Bair/Fair attacks that tend to break massive skulls with such ease. After trying her out a bit, I am shocked at how relatively easy it is to land these attacks on Bowser. I mean, each one has 3 separate properties that get stronger the farther out you are. Bowser's size allows this to happen so damn often it's sickening. Nair red armor can pass through all but the strongest hit. Don't even get me started how easy it is for her to set me up for these aerial attacks. This bullspit alone makes me want to give up on Bowser, though I never will.
Faore's(?) Wind is very wide, carries momentum, and strong enough to deter my aerial approaches, plus it stuffs flame cancel. Dtilt/smashes sometimes works, but it seems best to avoid her during this move. At least it leaves her pretty open.
Of course, a lot about Zelda gives me trouble, but these are the worst for me. How do you guys deal with her?
They definitely are easy to land. It's why i'm here, haha.
For now, I just try to stay no farther than mid-range distance in order to reduce her fire spam. Sometimes it's easier to rush her since she's fairly slow and tall as well. She's easier to trade with on the ground than in the air, though she has a wicked back throw that keeps me in check.
Any suggestions?
For now, I just try to stay no farther than mid-range distance in order to reduce her fire spam. Sometimes it's easier to rush her since she's fairly slow and tall as well. She's easier to trade with on the ground than in the air, though she has a wicked back throw that keeps me in check.
Any suggestions?
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
It is my opinion that Ivysaur is perhaps Bowser's worst matchup in PM 2.6b. After struggling ineffectively for an hour or so i could only find a few ways to make the MU bearable, like dash attacking leaves to clank them, and using lot of nair to avoid ivy's several, fast multihits. Edgeguarding is rough but ledgegrabbing > bair seems to be effective in theory, although i haven't tried it.
Interestingly enough, most of the Zeldas think the MU is around even.
There IS a TON of risk if zelda messes up, because she dies to bowser in about 4 heavy hits. But inversely, if bowser gets hit, there's a chance he'll get KO'ed or Combo'ed to KO damage levels.
There IS a TON of risk if zelda messes up, because she dies to bowser in about 4 heavy hits. But inversely, if bowser gets hit, there's a chance he'll get KO'ed or Combo'ed to KO damage levels.
cmart
Smash Lord
Haha Zelda players are on crack. Zelda takes Bowser for free - easily one of his worst matchups. Hey two characters who don't like to approach have to fight. Both of them have amazing punish games. One of them can force the other to approach through the use of an incredible projectile/stage control tool. How is this matchup anything but a massacre?
GeZ
Smash Lord
Yeah, I was going to say...
Edit: and to actually contribute to the conversation, her Fair and Bair are anything but fair. See what I did there? But in all seriousness they're disgusting moves in general and having a giant sweetspot target (Bowser's everything) makes them feel even more omnipresent and oppressive.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
I think Bowser has a very favorable MU vs Zelda. And this if after playing a loooooot vs Zhime. Zelda just can't do much of anything vs a Bowser who is all over her without being overly aggresive. :x
GeZ
Smash Lord
So how do you deal with her stage control and ability to get early kills with Fair and Bair?
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
You can't ever really be hit by a fair or bair unless you mess up an input or didn't shield in time, or put yourself in a bad position. All avoidable.
How well Zelda controls stage depends on if she can set up dins or not. As a big fatty, even a single dins will make things rough for you, and 3 are terrible. So what you have to do is always stay around zelda, so that you can punish her if she tries to set up a Dins (Which has a very pronounced start up time, mind you). If you try to be too agressive, you'll just end up hitting the air as zelda airdodges or eat a Nayru's immediatly, so you have to bait her. It's a kind of passive-aggresive game in where Zelda can't simply do much to fight back.
Keep in mind that there are many ways to clank dins. Dash attack is my favorite as it conserves a good amount of momentum while clanking, but up b is also viable. Bowser has huge range too, more than enough to keep Zelda spaced away (You can even fair and bair her through nayrus if you space it nicely). Edgeguarding is also a piece of cake: You can clank any dins the zelda may be trying to use to recover back onstage safely with getup attack or your aerials, and as long as you take the ledge when she teleports, she will fall helplessly into the stage, ready to be hit by an uair/fair/side b/utilt.
How well Zelda controls stage depends on if she can set up dins or not. As a big fatty, even a single dins will make things rough for you, and 3 are terrible. So what you have to do is always stay around zelda, so that you can punish her if she tries to set up a Dins (Which has a very pronounced start up time, mind you). If you try to be too agressive, you'll just end up hitting the air as zelda airdodges or eat a Nayru's immediatly, so you have to bait her. It's a kind of passive-aggresive game in where Zelda can't simply do much to fight back.
Keep in mind that there are many ways to clank dins. Dash attack is my favorite as it conserves a good amount of momentum while clanking, but up b is also viable. Bowser has huge range too, more than enough to keep Zelda spaced away (You can even fair and bair her through nayrus if you space it nicely). Edgeguarding is also a piece of cake: You can clank any dins the zelda may be trying to use to recover back onstage safely with getup attack or your aerials, and as long as you take the ledge when she teleports, she will fall helplessly into the stage, ready to be hit by an uair/fair/side b/utilt.
GoblinGamerKid
Smash Cadet
Anyone here have some quick things to say for Bowser vs Fox mu?
GeZ
Smash Lord
If fox is solid in his play he will beat Bowser down through the whole match until he makes a mistake. Once he ****s up, Bowser needs to kill. It's largely in Fox's favor, but with a smart and competent Bowser it isn't impossible.
The one thing that is key to the matchup is the Bowser player's ability to capitalize on the opponents mistakes, and kill off of one opening.
So let's say Zelda uses UpB at a distance where she can reach the stage and appear outside of ledgehop fair/sideB distance, how do you punish that? In my experience if you don't take the ledge she takes it for free and if you do take the ledge and react to her landing on-stage you're too slow to punish her. Basically I had to fake taking the ledge to bait her on-stage to punish her in that situation. I haven't played the matchup in a while but am I missing something, did her recovery change since 2.5? I often ended up just going off-stage to try to fair her out of her startup.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
if she's close enough to the stage that she can teleport out of your viable range, then she is close enough to get hit before she teleports. Remember ledgejump wavelands, too.
Really, edgeguarding Zelda is very similar to edgeguarding Sheik. As long as you take the ledge while either is recovering their options are quite limited, and if you time your get up right they are almost always punishable (Or best case scenario they just SD thinking you'd leave the ledge earlier and they attempted to sweetspot, things like that).
Really, edgeguarding Zelda is very similar to edgeguarding Sheik. As long as you take the ledge while either is recovering their options are quite limited, and if you time your get up right they are almost always punishable (Or best case scenario they just SD thinking you'd leave the ledge earlier and they attempted to sweetspot, things like that).
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
How does Bowser fare against Zelda?