Bowser MU discussion

[Youngster Joey]

i have absolutely zero snake experience. but the thing i think would be the worst is the nikita or however you spell it. i play against cpus sometimes just for fun and when im offstage trying to recover he'll side b and i feel like i have no options at all. it seems to be faster and stronger. i dont see any way around it. it beats up b so thats basically all recovery options unless you can use your airdodge. any advice for this?

 

[GoblinGamerKid]

i have absolutely zero snake experience. but the thing i think would be the worst is the nikita or however you spell it. i play against cpus sometimes just for fun and when im offstage trying to recover he'll side b and i feel like i have no options at all. it seems to be faster and stronger. i dont see any way around it. it beats up b so thats basically all recovery options unless you can use your airdodge. any advice for this?

I dont have much snake experience either since I have only fought 2 different snake players but an obvious thing to know is when your recovering high at the top of the screen (assuming you got hit and it sends you diagonal right or left) hes gonna have to direct his nikita at you and you should probably be able to get back on the stage in that time other than that I have no idea but this is probably one of the worst things a bowser could face.

 

[MegaGuy]

Recover high, time an air dodge, and pray. Nikita wrecks a lot of recoveries, including ours. I know in Brawl, you could hit the Nikita and alter it's trajectory, but it seems the properties have been changed. Maybe a well-timed NAir could work...

 

[trash?]

Saying this as a snake player: side-b is absolute hell for anyone with predictable recoveries. Your best bet involves trying to move yourself more vertically if possible, though I have no clue if there's any good options for that.

Snake v Bowser looks very much like a MU where either character gets major advantages depending on who is doing their job even slightly better. Remember, snake's air mobility is one of the worst in the game, so you could probably do some pretty damaging combos with little trouble, assuming you actually get in.

 

[9Kplus1]

You could always kill Snake before he gets you far enough offstage that he has to use Nikita and not Fair; it's kinda effective.

In my experiences, PSing / ITing nades and aerial mixups (aerials + smart Flame Cancelling, really) work pretty well as far as getting in goes. Also, edgeguarding Snake should be easy if you're patient.

 

[cmart]

Edgeguarding Snake is fun. I hate the rest of the matchup

 

[MegaGuy]

*ahem* Anyone have experience fighting Sheik? Fought Will's at KTAR and couldn't really come up with a plan on dealing with her.

 

[Cuban Legend]

Oh, that's too bad. I can understand what you're saying, but I have no way to validate it unfortunately. I don't really think Ness has a strong enough projectile game to shut Bowser down completely, but if the player utilizes it well enough, I could see Boozer having a rough time. Thanks for the input, I definitely want to get some Ness exp to really see what it's like!

I play a good friend who has a formidable Ness who has learned how to PK Fire spam from every position and lock you into a spam of it that mirrors the damage storm present when ICs Wobbled in Melee only to finish you off with a charged Up-B... if the well-aimed Up-B didn't kill you it'll knock you into tumble long enough for them to combo you or drop you back down with an Areial PKF.

It's hard to get out if you don't see it coming and I've lost 1st in a local FL tourney to him because of his crafty Ness play.

I'd say Ness is up there with Sheik and the Spacies against Bowser if the Ness is formidable and plays the MU well. Also he's a close friend who knows my playstyle and thus ha can play mindgames with more ease.

 

[standardtoaster]

your avatar makes the whole post come together btw

 

[MegaGuy]

Why would you sit there and get hit by Up B?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Crouch all the PK fires mang

 

[Aenglaan]

Snake vs Bowser seems like a match-up that is sided mostly in Snake's favor. Snake's projectiles and numerous traps help build up damage on Bowser weakening his armor. Not to mention that Snake has excellent grabs, which can be used into moves like Snake's U-Smah, U-tilt, and other moves. Snake also has an easy time edge-guarding against Bowser because, as Canon said, Snake deals really well with characters with predictable recoveries. Bowser, however, has just as easy of a time edge-guarding against Snake, given that Snake is very vulnerable in the air (his enhanced Up-B doesn't change that). In fact, Bowser can do fairly well against Snake as long as Snake is airborne, given Bowser's insane range and power.

Link vs Bowser is mostly in Link's favor from my experience. Link has solid attack range excellent projectiles to deal with Bowser. Furthermore, Link's grabs become far more useful, given how Bowser is a large character. If Link isn't careful, Bowser can quickly wreck Link, but unfortunately for Bowser, I'd say that's fairly difficult to do.

As for Charizard vs Bowser, I'm having a difficult time deciding who has the advantage here (assuming it isn't 50/50).

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Snake is hard vs Bowser mostly cause of the chaingrabs, combos and other little things that Snake can do to piss on Bowser. Stickying Bowser is the easiest thing ever, and i've had unforgettable memories of being set with stickies through walls or even when very far away.

Edgeguarding Snake is the freest thing ever, though. Dealing with most things except stickies is also particularly easy. So there's that.

 

[MegaGuy]

Yeah, I've had C4 "stuck" floating a good couple feet from where Bowser was. Bowser does well when he can back Snake into a corner, but that's a very difficult thing to do.

 

[choknater]

snake seems like a terrible matchup lol

vs sheik i think i would just crawl toward her to discourage needles, then space against her fairs from there

 

[Youngster Joey]

so i was watching some bowser v peach matches and i honestly think the bowsers are lucky they arent getting d smashed. this is because i think the peach doesnt realize they can crouch cancel d smash or just d smash bowsers approach. theres this one peach i play and when he plays the mu right (which is camp and d smash) i get beat pretty solidly. sure i can crawl through the turnips (actually i havent tried in 2.6b yet). but once i get to peach she'll spam d smash and my only option might be to use fire. and that eventually will get predictable and then everything will get beat by float to aerial of some kind. your takes on bowser v peach? this is the only mu that annoys me so far

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Peach can't beat much of anything with CC if you space yourself properly. The range for that isn't that large.

Use tilts, Aerials, down b hits, or side b/dash grab to get her if she's trying to bait for an attack an CC. Although the worst problem about peach in the Mu is how terribly safe she is on Bowser's shield if used right. With turnips and float cancelled aerials it becomes even hard to punish with an up B without getting hit at all.

 

[Nido]

Hey guys I recently won a tourney of pm with Bowser but I found it hard to deal with this guy's Ness and pk fire.

Could I get some tips for this mu?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

You can't crouch it. Your best bets are dodging, clanking the flame before it spreads out (Is this possible?) Or powershielding. Powershielding can totally turn the game to your advantage, so that's probably the most advisable.

 

[Ace55]

Yeah along with ZSS blaster it's one of the most hilarious things to powershield.

Taste of your own medicine Ness!

 

[DMG]

You can sometimes get hit by PK Fire, SDI out, and walk into it with a PS. Friend of mine can pretty consistently do that if he messes up the first opportunity to PS

 

[Jacob29]

Yo.

Re:Jiggs. Which way to di pound->rest?

My friend can consistently pound rest me which either kills or send me out long enough for him to unrest.

 

[DMG]

DI behind whichever way Jiggs hit you. You naturally fly a little behind her, but you want to go as far away as possible.

 

[Abeebo]

You can't crouch it. Your best bets are dodging, clanking the flame before it spreads out (Is this possible?) Or powershielding. Powershielding can totally turn the game to your advantage, so that's probably the most advisable.

Don't rule out crouching. I agree with clanking and PSing, but if you're already hit, just crawl backwards. Backwards crawl is faster than pk fire can come out, so if you're under fire(heh) you can keep crawling until its safe to jump out. You'll still take spit loads of damage, but its safer than DI or just taking it.

 

[Abeebo]

Ness is a kid with great projectiles, high height coverage with a reliable spike, and fast attacks to keep you at bay. All of this doesn't negate the fact that he's tiny with little T-Rex arms. Do what you can against pk fire by powershielding, swatting(not worth it on the ground if I may say so), crawling, dtilt, etc. Be wary of where you place your smash attacks as you can't afford the lag. Ness' dair can beat whirling fortress with easy timing, so aim for ledges or recover high to hopefully avoid going too far down. Keep a close eye on Bairs and fsmashes(do not underestimate tipper range) since those two are usually what ness is gonna kill you with.

On the other hand, bowser bomb and Fsmash totally OBLITERATES Ness's recovery. Use them. Fairs and Bairs all day. Aside from the outright kill moves, Ness has a lot of weaker moves that are easily beat by red armor, so smashes are risky but effective. Nair helps a lot too since it can beat ness' fair, uair, and most ground attacks. I haven't fully tested what exactly Nair can take, but fair and uair for sure. Flame cancel is always a fantastic mixup to your landings and it triggers pk fire away from you, so never forget it.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Yo.

Re:Jiggs. Which way to di pound->rest?

My friend can consistently pound rest me which either kills or send me out long enough for him to unrest.

Why are you getting hit with that when you should be fairing Puff in the face for daring to get remotely close to you?

Bowser's Fair >> Puff, it's one of the complete MU reversals from melee since Bowser now wins imo

Assuming that you do get hit with Pound, DI hard behind Puff and try to mash out a bair to trade with Puff's attempted follow up (since Bowser usually wins trades). if you go too far away for Puff to safely follow up, you get to reset the positioning and go back to outspacing that ****ing balloon.

As for the thread...

Just from my small amount of experince, and these are listed in no particular order in their respective classifications

Characters i think solidly beat bowser

Characters that might beat bowser

Characters i think are even with bowser

Characters i think bowser beats


Fox most certainly beats Bowser as long as he doesn't try for dumb combo video stuff

Sheik is practically designed to beat heavy, large, slow characters, good reason to have a secondary

Link and Snake beat Bowser for the same reasons but in different ways; camping and zoning

Falcon, Lucario and Marth all have to hit confirm and can touch of death the big turtle, but they have to work for it

The Mario Bros have some obvious advantages but only a few small weaknesses, i would consider placing Luigi higher or lower if i got a little more experience

Zelda's Toes are a nightmare, one of the few MUs I've played where Bowser doesn't want to trade hits

MetaKnight should beat Bowser, a lot of damage can be racked up quickly on such a large character

Ganondorf is sort of stage dependant imo, as is TL and Peach. a back and forth dynamic rather than a straight win/lose MU number imo

Squirtle feels even to myself and the new Squirtle main in my city lol, i just have that to base it off of, could be quite wrong

Falco is a MU that I see as dead even, they both **** eachother up really hard and have the tools to counteract eachother pretty freely

with Ike, Gonzales and I (The player who started the Ike descussion thread on the old PM forums) both thought that this was an even MU back in the 2.1 days. I've left the character there because I have yet to play a decent 2.6b Ike. that one is subject to change, but the adjustments and balances to Ike may have caused the MU to swing in Bowser's favor *shrugs*

My reasoning on Puff is probably obvious from my rant above lol

Ivy can be annoying, but Bowser can straight up ignore a lot of it's zoning attempts and punishes it really hard

G&W and Sonic are my only theory crafts on the list lol

Any characters not listed are ones I have yet to play against in serious matches

 

[Viceversa96]

You outrange him by a huge amount, you CC everything except Fair which is slow enough to react to. I personally love down-b edgegaurding everybody Mario.

And yeah for the love of god recover high.

I think Mario definitely beats Bowser. Chad played Kirk completely wrong and rushed in so Kirk punished every mistake HARD. Missed a lot of grabs. Barely baited up b's which is SOOO easy to do. Missed key gimps. When Bowser gets grabbed it should be a stock. Also it's really obvious when a Bowser is going to CC so I usually just grab or I dash dance to bait a roll or shield. Not saying it's terrible for Bowser because he has range and power. I would say 60:40 Mario is the highest.

 

[Ace55]

I think Mario definitely beats Bowser. Chad played Kirk completely wrong and rushed in so Kirk punished every mistake HARD. Missed a lot of grabs. Barely baited up b's which is SOOO easy to do. Missed key gimps. When Bowser gets grabbed it should be a stock. Also it's really obvious when a Bowser is going to CC so I usually just grab or I dash dance to bait a roll or shield. Not saying it's terrible for Bowser because he has range and power. I would say 60:40 Mario is the highest.

I never tried to imply that it's in Bowser's favor (few matchups are imo). However who on earth rolls with Bowser? And how would you bait a shield when I'm committed to CCing. At low %, unless I see you fairing, I shouldn't be shielding.

 

[Viceversa96]

I never tried to imply that it's in Bowser's favor (few matchups are imo). However who on earth rolls with Bowser? And how would you bait a shield when I'm committed to CCing. At low %, unless I see you fairing, I shouldn't be shielding.

Again when I DD I'm trying to make you do something. Bowser can't really approach while I'm doing it because he risks getting punished. All of Mario's moves have low lag (except fair) but Bowser even when L-canceling has notable lag. So I can run in and grab if he throws out a move or run in and a Bowser is most likely expecting a move when you run in so that will bait a spot dodge. I read that and PUNISH. Lol.

 

[Ace55]

Again when I DD I'm trying to make you do something. Bowser can't really approach while I'm doing it because he risks getting punished. All of Mario's moves have low lag (except fair) but Bowser even when L-canceling has notable lag. So I can run in and grab if he throws out a move or run in and a Bowser is most likely expecting a move when you run in so that will bait a spot dodge. I read that and PUNISH. Lol.

If you have to read someone to punish him then it's not a matchup thing, it's just outplaying the opponent. Bowser has trouble with dash dance camping but with Mario's mediocre running speed and lack of range he's not exactly the best at exploiting this weak point.

The second example seems weird: We're both in neutral, you run in and then I'm supposed to spotdodge so you can read that and punish?


Much like every other character Mario has to play a 'passive aggressive' game against Boozer. Force him to approach then punish every opening you get hard.

 

[Viceversa96]

If you have to read someone to punish him then it's not a matchup thing, it's just outplaying the opponent. Bowser has trouble with dash dance camping but with Mario's mediocre running speed and lack of range he's not exactly the best at exploiting this weak point.

The second example seems weird: We're both in neutral, you run in and then I'm supposed to spotdodge so you can read that and punish?


Much like every other character Mario has to play a 'passive aggressive' game against Boozer. Force him to approach then punish every opening you get hard.

Lol I love when people say Boozer. You're right that's what it is. Can you put the pluses and minuses for both characters in this MU?

 

[GeZ]

If you have to read someone to punish him then it's not a matchup thing, it's just outplaying the opponent. Bowser has trouble with dash dance camping but with Mario's mediocre running speed and lack of range he's not exactly the best at exploiting this weak point.

The second example seems weird: We're both in neutral, you run in and then I'm supposed to spotdodge so you can read that and punish?


Much like every other character Mario has to play a 'passive aggressive' game against Boozer. Force him to approach then punish every opening you get hard.

In my experience with both characters I'd say this one is more in Mario's favor than Bowser's, just because stating that Mario has to play this matchup passive aggressive is silly. Mario's play style accommodates a lot of leniency of strategy, so while ideally he wants to be a threatening, mobile fortress, he can also play subdued, while capitalizing whenever he gets the opportunity. At his basest, Mario excels at not being easily bullied. He can't force you to do much, but in return he won't take any ****. I'd rank this one as positive for Mario simply because he gets to play it how he wants, and considering that he's a monster when it comes to capitalizing on the opponents mistakes, that puts him above Bowser's prospective punching bag status in this match.
I will say that Bowser definitely has tools to defend himself from a lot of pressure, and blows powerful enough to give Mario players doubt when pushing Bowser's mistakes. Playing with your opponent, convincing them of your intentions, and then enacting a different strategy, will be Bowser's surest niche into defeating his longstanding rival.

 

[Ace55]

In my experience with both characters I'd say this one is more in Mario's favor than Bowser's, just because stating that Mario has to play this matchup passive aggressive is silly.

You go play aggro against a Bowser who knows what he's doing and let me know how it goes. Hell I stated I don't think it's in Bowsers favor. Bowser forces basically the entire cast to play against him differently since you can't really rush or pressure him. Mario might be jack of all trades but he's going to have to ignore some of those trades if he wants to do well in this matchup.

 

[GeZ]

You go play aggro against a Bowser who knows what he's doing and let me know how it goes. Hell I stated I don't think it's in Bowsers favor. Bowser forces basically the entire cast to play against him differently since you can't really rush or pressure him. Mario might be jack of all trades but he's going to have to ignore some of those trades if he wants to do well in this matchup.

The rest of my post might have been unclear, or otherwise misleading, so I apologize. I'm not saying that Mario doesn't have to play passive aggressive, or that he can straight aggro Bowser for the whole match, but more that saying Mario has to play passive aggressive is no great bane, because he is so comfortable in that play style, and otherwise adaptive that a good player would adjust to that change without any access chagrin because that adaptability is his forte.

 

[Ace55]

So basically we agree, lol.

 

[GeZ]

So basically we agree, lol.

PRETTY MUCH

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Bowser's roll is dope.

Many times i've been in a situation in where an opponent hits my shield then shields, expecting an Up-B. Rolling to the other side of the shield protects you from grabs and can also bait people into dropping their shield early (It's less janky than it sounds)

 

[DMG]

That sounds very janky

 

[Abeebo]

That sounds like a good ol' regular roll to me. Bowser's roll, but a roll nonetheless.

 

[Abeebo]

Rolololololol

Doesn't even sound like a word anymore.